After Rohani’s Visit to New York: Flynt Leverett on Prospects for U.S.-Iranian Nuclear Diplomacy

Following Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif’s meeting last week with U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and the other P5+1 foreign ministers, Flynt went on the PBS Newshour to discuss the prospects for U.S-Iranian nuclear diplomacy, see here or (if you prefer You Tube) here.  The next concrete step in U.S.-Iranian engagement on the nuclear issue will come next month, when Iran and the P5+1 resume discussions in Geneva.

In the wake of President Rohani’s visit to New York for the United Nations General Assembly, much of the American commentariat (including one of Flynt’s co-panelists on the Newshour) is asking how much the Islamic Republic will be prepared to concede—or, more bluntly, surrender—in nuclear talks.  But, as we have noted before, this is mistaken and self-deluding view.

As Flynt points out on the Newshour, the core idea animating President Rohani’s approach to nuclear diplomacy—recognition of Iran’s nuclear rights, as a sovereign state and as a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (including the right to enrich uranium under international safeguards) in exchange for greater transparency surrounding the Islamic Republic’s nuclear activities—is not new.  It has, in fact, been on the table from the Iranian side for years; Supreme Leader Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei publicly endorsed it well be Rohani was elected.

Rohani and Zarif are perhaps prepared to be more proactive in defining what greater transparency on Iran’s nuclear activities would mean, in practical terms.  But, as they themselves have made abundantly clear, they are not there to surrender Iran’s nuclear rights.

Thus, the real question is:  Is the Obama administration prepared to do a nuclear deal with the Islamic Republic predicated on a recognition of Iran’s right to safeguarded enrichment—and to face down opposition to such a deal

–Flynt Leverett and Hillary Mann Leverett

 

885 Responses to “After Rohani’s Visit to New York: Flynt Leverett on Prospects for U.S.-Iranian Nuclear Diplomacy”

  1. Smith says:

    I am writing this piece to bury the issue of 20% once and for ever.

    What follows is only a small portion of realities and by no means is complete.

    Firstly I encourage everyone to read the core of NPT in full. It is just one page.

    Iran is a sovereign state and soverneigty requires Iran to do what it deems necessary for its growth and advancement now or in future. These sovereign rights of a state and a nation means that Iran has every right to uranium enrichemnt of any degree and pyroprocessing of waste fuels from its reactors. All these rights are permissible and even encouraged under NPT. Furthermore, NPT recognizes the sovereign right of nations to leave NPT whenever they want.

    Iran needs to continue enrichment to 20% and even higher and build up a stock of fuel for its future economy. The Iranian national fuel bank would ensure uninterrupted fuel supply for all present and future Iranian needs.

    Here are some uses of Uranium enrichment to above 20%:

    1- Marine nuclear reactors:

    a) Surface warship propulsion: This requires small PWR reactors running on enriched uranium with varying degrees. For example US navy uses reactors that use 93% enriched uranium. Russians PWR marine reactors use enriched uranium between 20% and 45%. French use 20% to 25% and probably higher. Iran needs such propulsion to build larger warships that would have the endurace to extend the Iranian navy’s reach to Pacific and Atlantic oceans.

    b) Submarine propulsion: This requires compact PWR reactors running on highly enriched uranium. US navy uses uranium of 97% grade. Russians use 25% to 45%. The under development Indian Arihant class submarine is to use 40%. Attack nuclear submarines (as opposed to strategic missile submarines) are actually the best defense for Iran against US navy. They can move fast under water and remain submurged under ocean for months tracking any malign ship or subs. Futhermore such a submarine would enable Iranian navy to extend its reach to US shores. It is possible for such a submarine to go under water in Bushehr and sail to waters off New York or California, all the while remaining under the ocean patrolling for a year before returning to port. Iran already has Kilo class diesel submarines. So Iran can reverse engineer this class, install it with a 40-50 MWt compact PWR reactor of its own design running on 40% enriched uranium. This would change Iranian navy to an extremely potent force capable of defending Iranian interests anywhere on planet. Such sub would be like the French Rubi class submarine which used a smiliar reactor in a similar sized submarine.

    c) Nuclear propulsion for commercial container ships and tankers: Though currently no ship is using nuclear propulsion for these purposes (except Russia’s Arctic cargo ships and Ice Breakers), such propulsion had been explored by at least four countries which had made commercial ships based on nuclear propulsion and used them for awhile until cheap oil prices made their use uneconomical. Today with increasing oil prices, Iran can benefit from such ships. These kind of ships use enriched uranium from 6% to 25%. Though with higher enriched fuel, they would need lesser refueling which is much more convenient. Nuclear propelled commercial ships have advantages over their oil burning ones eg. no need for refueling in foreign ports (refueling is being denied to Iranian ships under current sanctions), no down time for refueling for years (eg. with 40% enrichment level they can continue sailing for over 20 years without the need for refueling).

    d) LNG Tankers nuclear propulsion: LNG tankers are huge and need alot of power for their propulsion. But they also need huge extra electricity generation for keeping their super cold cargo the liquid natural gas at -160 degrees centigrade refrigerated, or otherwise it would evaporate. For this reason LNG tankers that run on nuclear power would be much more economical, environmentally clean and efficient. Iran has the world’s second largest natural gas reserves (or as per some estimates the world’s largest). Russia is opposed to Iran laying pipelines to China via central Asia and to Europe. Sanctions mean long term pipeline investment to Europe or to India are not possible anymore. But Iran can benefit by selling LNG on spot market which has a price more than two times higher than natural gas via pipeline. In such a setting Iran with a fleet of nuclear powered LNG tankers would have a super advantage over others eg. Qataris who have to burn large amounts of fossil fuels to keep their conventional LNG tankers moving about.

    e) Off-shore or on-shore small nuclear power reactors and desalination plants: Iran has chronic shortage of water. This is even worse along the coast of Persian Gulf and Oman sea. There are numerous communities there who are struggling with this age old problem. Many of Iranian islands in Persian Gulf and Oman sea do not have water and it costs a great deal of money to transport water there or to desalinate water by burning oil. That is why many of these islands are currently not inhabited. Installing small power reactors which provide both power and desalinate sea water would be of great economic and strategic value to Iranian nation. Such reactors run on highly enriched uranium which require refuelling only after almost a decade of operation. A standardized reactor developed for marine transportation use that consumes enriched uranium (40% to 60%) can power such plants as well with minimum technical staff required for its safe operation until the next refuelling.

    2- Small and medium sized reactors as industrial thermal power source:

    a) Iran has substantial oil reserves and as such is an important oil producer. Sanctions have caused this aspect of Iranian economy to be hurt. But Iran can use its oil reserves in other ways that beat these long term sanctions. One way of doing this is by stop selling oil in crude format and start producing huge amounts of petrochemicals and polymers. Such industrial products are always in great demand and sell like hot cakes in international markets with almost no possibility for their trade to be impacted by sanctions. As manufacturing of the world has moved out of western countries, such base chemicals needed for industries are much more difficult to be tracked and banned than crude oil. Right now Iran has quite a well established petrochemical industry. Petrochemical industries need huge amoung of thermal energy for converting crude into chemicals and polymers as all the reactions involved are of endothermic type. But these industries in Iran like almost everywhere else are powered by burning oil and natural gas which is highly inefficient, polluting and economically expensive. Small nuclear reactors, for example the same standardized marine reactor running on highly enriched uranium can be used to provide thermal heat for these petrochemial plants. It would be the ideal way of using the oil. Without burning it and just convert it to products of value. Like other minerals. By doing this, Iran can undercut world prices of chemicals and polymers, and use its oil to produce numerous competetive intermeidate industrial feed products which can not be sanctioned and would beat out all other competitors because of their lower production price.

    b) Iran has the world’s second largest natural gas reserves (or first as per some). These reserves remain locked in Iran due to the fact that building pipelines to near large markets are not feasible for forseable future due to political reasons. Two ways of making these huge reserves, of economic significance to Iran is by turning it to products that can be sold much more easily in spot markets without the need for pipelines or LNG tankers. One way is by producing industrial products out of natural gas eg. fertilizers. Again, the process of producing fertilizers needs huge amount of thermal energy which is now provided by burning the natural gas. This is not necessary. A highly enriched uranium reactor can substitute thermal source and produce fertilizers much more eficiently and cost effectively. Again, it would be very difficult to stop fertilizers to be sold in international spot markets specially tanking into account that half of the world’s populaiton is living on eastern borders of Iran with chronic shortage of frerilizers.

    Another way of use of natural gas would be turning it to LNG which increases its price by more than 100%. But making LNG from natural gas is an energy intensive process since cooling natrual gas by compression and refrigeration from ambient temperature of 48 degress celicius in Persian Gulf summers to -162 degrees of celicius needs huge amounts of energy. Right now in countries like Qatar, Egypt, Indonesia etc, this energy is provided by burning natural gas. This need not be. A small nuclear power reactor (the same standardized marine one as above), can power this process of liquification much more efficiently.

    c) Direct thermal energy for industries can be satisfied with small reactors eg. in mineral processing industries, various chemical industries etc etc. For instance refinaries of aluminium, copper or zinc need huge amounts of energy. In fact Aluminium is considered an energy concentrate by the markets than a metal element simply because so much energy goes into its purification that the cost of elemental aluminium becomes unimportant.

    3- Ultra compact low energy producing reactors running on highly enriched uranium:

    a) Small compact reactors for isotope production or as neutron source for medical isotope production, PET scan laboratory, physics labs, material labs, engineering labs etc.

    b) Small compact reactors for powering space satellites. These highly enriched uranium usually above 90% or use plutonium isotopes produced by plutonium producing reactors and reprocessing the nuclear waste. United State, England and Russia have all used such technologies on their military and civilian satellites. Today they are mostly used on classified spy satellites mostly low earth orbiting imaging satellites and synthetic aperture radar satellites since these require large amounts of power and putting huge solar panels on these would give away their location and increase atmospheric drag in low earth orbit drastically decreasing their life in orbit.

    c) Producing atomic batteries needs isotopes mostly produced in small nuclear reactors powered by highly enriched uranium. Such batteries are used in space satellites, remote sensing units installed in faraway places and as power back up for extremely critical civilian and military systems.

  2. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    September 29, 2013 at 4:42 pm

    Pathetic rascals. Where ever one looks and however one looks, at the end, it comes to the same thing. That they perceive themselves superior to the rest. This notion that all are equal is almost blasphemy for their types. As even evident on this forum board.

  3. fyi says:

    Smith says:
    September 29, 2013 at 5:46 pm

    The Axis Powers are quite smart, smart in creating problems.

    That is why they have failed and they will keep on failing.

  4. kooshy says:

    PG- My guess is that in Californian the Iranian population is probably more than 300-400 K and in grater LA including 2nd and 3rd generation probably around 200-300k. What I have observed is if there are paid cultural events there you only see 200-1000 Iranians depending on type and price of the event, if there is a free event like New Year event by the Farhang Foundation which generally is a non-political expatriate founded event in LA county Museum of Art, you see up to 2000-3000 adult and kids show up, if you count that as a 1% show up which is normal, then I would estimate is safe to say Greater LA is about 200-300k of 3 generation of Iranians, I doubt is more, true in west LA and in valley one would see a lot of Iranians but other areas are not as visible. Still, I think it is safe to say that the largest concentration of Iranians outside of Iran is in LA.

  5. ToivoS says:

    Leverett asks: “Thus, the real question is: Is the Obama administration prepared to do a nuclear deal with the Islamic Republic predicated on a recognition of Iran’s right to safeguarded enrichment—and to face down opposition to such a deal”

    And the answer is yes if he has sufficient political backing. And that is where the Leverett’s have an important role to play — namely to help make the case. I do believe that the Leverett’s have already shifted the debate inside the US and now they will have to take on the Israel Lobby full on to defeat their efforts for war against Iran. It will be a different argument going forward — I think the Obama folks agree with them now but this round means going to American people to support this move towards a peaceful settlement. For sure the American people are tired of more war in the ME so this should be an easier sell.

  6. James Canning says:

    Kooshy,

    US Census Bureau apparently uses figure of 500,000 (for number of Iranians in the US).

  7. Raad says:

    Thank you Mr Smith, an informative and useful summary of > 20% U235 uses. Of course the economic case for nuclear energy production in Iran has also been well articulated by Prof Sahimi. Kind regards.

  8. Castellio says:

    The Leveretts are two of the most important American spokespersons for the rehabilitation of Iranian-American relations. They understand and objectively present the history, hurdles, and options. They both defend and promote American interests in the Middle East very well.

    As such, they and their site are increasingly “high profile”.

    For those new to the site, Smith is a troll whose purpose is to ensure that 1) the reader believes that Iran is a threat to the United States – hence Smith’s declaration that HEU is necessary for attack submarines that will reach the American border, and hence his insistence on Iranian nuclear weapons – directly contrary to Iranian government policy and 2) to present Iranian domestic culture as degenerate – directly contrary to the reality.

    He succeeds, briefly, for those who do not realize he is engaged in a conscious act of deception.

  9. Rehmat says:

    On Sunday, Netanyahu left Israel for his second homeland (United States) to address the UN General Assembly (UNGA) in New York on October 1. In his farewell speech, Netanyahu told his subjects that he intends to “tell the truth to counter Rouhani’s charm” – to Barack Obama and the world at large.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/09/30/netanyahu-i-will-tell-the-truth-about-iran/

  10. BiBiJon says:

    Kerry on CBS’ 60 Minutes
    =================

    Just watched the interview with John Kerry. Bottom line he is saying there could be a deal even in less than three months. He said, I think, to get a deal Iran needs to verfiably foreswear weapons grade enrichment, sign AP, and open Fordow to inspections, I think he meant close Fordow.

    He then pointedly thanked Rouhani, and Ay. Khamenei for creating the possibility of a deal, and promised that the two countries will become best of buddies in very short time after the settling the nuclear issue.

    I tend not to believe that the folks in US or in Iran are in any mood to take risks. I think the essence of a deal has already been made and agreed to, firmly. They are now working on the details which are significant only in the sense of PR for Russia, UK and France who will be very upset about the US-Iran rapprochement.

    They are not worried about Israel, because they count on Netanyahu being himself, i.e. totally discredit and embarrass Isreal and her supporters.

  11. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    September 29, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    One can say, it is almost miraculous. You can see the hand of God in it.

    Whatever they do, they end up with their face in mud. Take the case of Syria. It is amazing. But hubris does not allow them to see the truth.

  12. Smith says:

    Raad says:
    September 29, 2013 at 7:37 pm

    You are welcome, dear Raad. The information is all publicly available.

    The problem with western countries and their puppet is that they want to keep Iran a backward and un-industrialized nation. That way they can rule Iran as masters.

    Obviously, as you can see there are others here who are very much house niggers and in their slaved minds, they think that a disarmed and crippled Iran is what will lead to ever lasting peace on earth. Alas, this is not the case as history is clear on it.

    One has to believe in simple laws applied to every one. If something is good for one, then it is good for all. There is no special people. If HEU and plutonium is good for white man, then it is good for Iranians as well. This kind of simple laws will keep the peace.

  13. kooshy says:

    Castellio says:
    September 29, 2013 at 7:43 pm

    I think almost all the regular commentator on this site know about fyi and smith’s tag teaming and approving their own un sourced prophecies and assertion, fyi, or smith hardly ever provide a reliable source for their assertions (usually presented in a such elementary way, that as if you doubt their assertions is just because you are un informed, much like a 7th grade debate I just judged yesterday) these are not new to us. Even, when due to some news of a possible talk, or rapprochement they become off balance, and start throwing in the rape and need to get nuke and etc. etc. is not unusual to us, much like the RSH’s BS.
    But for me as long as they behave within a polite manner they are useful to have around and learn what and how much throws the hasbara out of balance and read the sensitivities measurement.
    Over all, I also believe they both enjoy being “raped” by their own verbatim, maybe that’s why they make so many unproven assertions. In practical sexual term it is called me & me.

    There is Persian proverb that goes like this “what a talented performer you are, if what you say can only make you laugh”.

  14. Pirouz says:

    I caught Flynt on NEWSHOUR last Thursday. It’s really obvious Judy Woodruff has not taken the time to read “Going to Tehran.” She needs to retire.

  15. BiBiJon says:

    Castellio says:
    September 29, 2013 at 7:43 pm

    “The Leveretts are two of the most important American spokespersons for the rehabilitation of Iranian-American relations. They understand and objectively present the history, hurdles, and options. They both defend and promote American interests in the Middle East very well.”

    Truly, what better use of one’s intellect, and knowledge than what the Leveretts have brought to bear, against all odds, to secure a rational foreign policy for the US.

    The peace dividends will be huge. Humanity owes them an unpayable debt of gratitude. But, naming a couple of beautiful tree-lined streets after Flynt and Hillary could be a start.

  16. Karl.. says:

    James

    James, could you please stop lying now?

    “Obama didn’t speak about Iran’s right to enrich: Rice”

    http://presstv.com/detail/2013/09/30/326855/us-didnt-say-iran-has-right-to-enrich/

  17. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn

    Why would Iran agree close Fordow? Theres a reason why there is a ‘roof’ on that facility. That Iran could still enirch mean that they will always have the nuclear option if they want to go that way, why would US and Israel according to you suddently agree to that?

    Question is what Iran gets in return?

    -All sanctions lifted?
    -Bilateral relations with EU and US?
    -Business ties with EU and US?
    -End of calling for regime change and war?

    You shouldnt doubt aipac/Israel like that, netanyahu will do everyhing to destroy Iran tommorow.

  18. Richard Steven Hack says:

    Wow. Just wow.

    Someone has laid on the Obama Kool-Aid big time. Obama appears to have an unlimited supply and it’s as potent as the stuff that whacked those morons in South America…

    I can’t wait for this hallucination to blow up in everyone’s face…again…

    Kumbayah, or however that’s spelled…

    I’ll be back when this dream is dashed…again…

  19. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    September 30, 2013 at 7:19 am

    While Kerry is undoubtedly gaff prone, he did only demand opening Fordow to inspections. He could be setting the scene for later claiming success at getting Iran to allow more intrusive inspections of Fordow. You’re right, and it would be logical for Iran to insist on Fordow remaining open given threats that continue to exist.

    It is important to note Susan Rice said “we are not talking” about Iran’s right to enrich. ‘Not talking’ means ‘not talking’. I.e. the issue is left to later when the ground is prepared.

    As for AIPAC and Israel, they are spent forces that nobody should spend time thinking about, unless they are trying to promote their (non existent) influence. Both thrive on the illusion/assumption that they are powerful, and hence no one should dare challenge them. But, If challenged, their impotence will be revealed for all to see. We have a very recent example. Michael Oren declared Israel’s wishes vis-a-vis Syria ‘all along’; Could AIPAC muster the vote in Congress to knock Assad off his path to victory?

    http://www.jpost.com/Syria-Crisis/Oren-Jerusalem-has-wanted-Assad-ousted-since-the-outbreak-of-the-Syrian-civil-war-326328

    In short, if the whining apartheid pipsqueak wants to retain a modicum of relevance, she and her supporters would be well advised to shut up while the big boys are talking.

  20. BiBiJon says:

    Richard Steven Hack says:
    September 30, 2013 at 7:42 am

    ‘Kumbayah’, or ‘kumbaya’ are accepted spellings.

    “I’ll be back when this dream is dashed…again…”

    Real men hang around when events appear to be going fast and furiously counter to their looooong-held predictions.

  21. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn

    Fordo is already under inspections isnt it?

    Why would they “talk” at all about Iran’s RIGHT to enrichment? That implies Obama doesnt recognize that right.

    Aipac is not a spent force, why do you think that?

  22. Unknown Unknowns says:

    1. Agree with Castellio and everyone else that Smith is unquestionably a troll and should be avoided like the plague. Or flamed. Smith is like the Smith in the Matrix. Appears in all sorts of forms, when the Borg gets anxious. Good job Leverettes and Axis of Resistance Commenter Team.

    2. I’m still wondering that if indeed some sort of thaw is happening, why that is. Surely it cannot be that Barry White’s masters have given him leeway. Or are we all delusional and that it has not been about empire, and Uncle $cam is actually Uncle Sam and is the patriarch of a benevolent republic and not the nastiest, most brutal empire in human history. So, is it all bluster and talk (as I suspect)? And if not, what is going on? (Addressed to BiBiJon and the other optimists in her corner).

    3. Basiji-jan: Bonus points for Smithy holding the short end.

    4. Great post in previous thread @ A-B says: September 29, 2013 at 2:29 pm

    5. Basiji-jan: “Welcome to being a mokhless follower of Ahlul Bayt.” True. And we all expected all this BS when Hasani got elected. But methinks that this is only one side of the coin. It is true that the greenies are blind and have no moral or strategic vision basirat), but those of us who are loyal to the velayat of our vali are by no means free of our problems either. The outright defeat of our front should be a wake-up call. It is not enough for us to have the right vision. We have to DELIVER, which first and foremost means seeing to the basics. For example, knowing our vulnerabilities (to SWIFT and Central Bank sanctions), and acting in such a way so as to avoid those vulnerabilities being leveraged by the enemy so that most commodities triple in price in the space of six months. SEcondly, what the hell were we thinking? Running five candidates against these people! If we can’t get together and be united enough to form one united party with a hierarchy and leadership answerable to our vali, then we deserve the beating we got. So yes, Mahmoud-jan would have the balls to demand extradition of that terrorist darling of the West’s, Maryam-joon; but there are so many other facets to Eslam-e velai, many of which the opposition is better at, alas. To me, the lesson learned from the horrible defeat that was handed to us at the elections is that we have to look to ourselves and seriously examine what it is that we did *wrong*. We lost the confidence of the people, who thought that we did such a horrible job that they voted in an Akbar analogue, even though they hate him (remember he barely squeezed in at #30 in the Municipal elections in Tehran…)

    6. Gaav: Haven’t heard 20% rants from you lately. What gives?

  23. M.Ali says:

    Unknown Unknowns, I think if there was another akhond in the candidates, Rohani would have lost. I’m guessing he got a lot of votes from conservatives who trusted a cleric, rather than say someone like Ghalibaf, who I supported dearly, but with his fancy tablets and such, might have been TOO MUCH for someone not exposed to his work in Tehran.

    Ghalibaf in UN would have been so awesome.

  24. Unknown Unknowns says:

    Richard “Special Appearance” Hack:

    This film-maker’s blog is interesting.

    http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2011/12/plan-b-how-to-loot-nations-and-their-banks-legally/

    That particular post goes into the deep economics of repos, hypothecated and re-hypothecated assets, and derivatives, and the systemic threats they pose.

    The spike in oil prices engendered by an attack on Iran (and the Iranian reaction/ blowback) would lead to a collapse of the derivatives market due to margin calls on these super-leveraged financial instruments.

    If what Golem XIV says is correct or close to correct, one reason why Iran has not been attacked (and will not be) is that the Jewish banksters (and their associated Goy fluffers) want to milk the shit out of Plan A before moving on to Plan B (to use Golem’s terms).

    You know, in case you wanted to add some nuance and depth to your argument.

  25. Unknown Unknowns says:

    M. Ali-san:

    I enjoy your posts and appreciate your unique perspective.

    Yes, Ghalibaaf or Jalili (or really, any of the others, for that matter) would have been better at the UN. The greenies are bound to get a(nother) big ‘bilakh’ from Barry White. I wonder if they will learn anything? I doubt it. Just as we velayat-madars won’t learn anything in terms of organizing and unity of purpose and leadership and will field another motley crew in four years.

    Truly, we get what we deserve.

  26. fyi says:

    M.Ali says:

    September 30, 2013 at 10:07 am

    The electoral laws as well as the Guardian Councils criteria have to be altered and revised.

    Capable people are denied leadership roles in the Islamic Republic because they fail the imposed “Outward Conformance to Islam” criterion.

    This is only harming the state as the roster of candiates is needlessly limited.

  27. Fiorangela says:

    Pirouz,

    Judy Warner’s producers did at least this much — the clip of Rouhani that opened the segment encapsulated the entire rationale of the NPT:

    “Rouhani: “the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki deepened our resolve to prevent the recurrence of such unspeakable death and destruction .. no nation should possess nuclear weapons…since there are no right hands for these wrong weapons.” The only absolute guarantee is their total elimination.”

    “There are no right hands for these wrong weapons” is the essence of the nonproliferation treaty. The US has, since the very beginning, taken the position that “it is the right of the power that is responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki to decide which hands may hold these weapons.” In so doing, the US has eroded the NPT over time.

    Beyond that, it is unfortunate that PBS was unable to find more worthy interlocutors for Flynt Leverett than past-her-shelf-life Susan Maloney and reliably hawkish Gerecht. Flynt’s presence on the panel gave them a stature that it is not clear they deserve.

    The PBS audience is entitled to know the basis for i.e. Maloney’s and Gerecht’s opinions: who do they talk with in Iran? What American constituencies do they represent in the USA? How do their assessments mesh with the actual requirements of the nonproliferation treaty, as opposed to American hegemonic willfulness?

    I tried to think of somebody in the US foreign policy arena who could give Dr. Leverett a run for his money, who would be consistently concise and rational and able to refocus distortions, but from an opposing viewpoint. I couldn’t think of anyone. Apparently, neither could PBS.

  28. Karl.. says:

    Canada cant stop hate on Iran and love Israel.

    http://gadebate.un.org

  29. Rd. says:

    tt…

    “Thus, the real question is:  “
    ..

    US has lost its unilateral moment with a determined Russian opposition to Syrian project. This is very difficult for US to swallow. Now, it is time to use the Iran card against the Russian bear. Just as much as US used Russia and China in cornering Iran in previous resolutions/sanctions etc.

    cc

    US desperately depends on ME. They will play their international whoring policies to what ever end to serve their interest. How far they go, will likely depends on when or how they can get the bear to dance to their tunes, or Iran for that matter. If/when that happens, they can always do their 180.

    ,,,

    As for israel/aipac, US loss of unilateral moment is far worse scenario than Iran-US rapprochement. They will apply respond to their ‘sit’ command. Though, they can always ‘speak’.

    //

    This is just an example of the whoring of the international politics.

  30. Fiorangela says:

    Rd. says:
    September 30, 2013 at 10:36 am

    “TEL AVIV, Israel, Sept. 27 (UPI) — Israel’s military chiefs are pushing for a bump in the $3.1 billion a year the Jewish state receives in U.S. military aid even though the 10-year agreement doesn’t expire until 2017 and America is struggling with domestic economic issues. . . .”

    http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2013/09/27/Israel-starts-campaign-to-boost-US-military-aid/UPI-52461380301963/?spt=hs&or=si

  31. Rd. says:

    Fiorangela says:

    “TEL AVIV, Israel, Sept. 27 (UPI) — Israel’s military chiefs are pushing for a bump in the $3.1 billion a year”

    They can always ride the congress to keep their FAILED state running. but when it comes to strategic policies, they just do the ‘speak’ part.

  32. Karl.. says:

    Rd.

    Congress will vote according to what Israel wants.

  33. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    UU-jan,

    Like I said before the elections, the differences among the so-called usulis are deep and decades-old. Unity, shmunity.

    The problem is deeper than electoral strategies and delivering things.

    Let me explain: They are many people in the elites who as a matter of deep-seated belief think that ruling and administration and managing are their birth right. How dare the people vote for a guy like Mahmud!

    Then there are some who don’t believe this and believe that whoever passes the religious and revolutionary standards is OK.

    This distinction cuts right through usulis and eslah talabha and the elitists in both camps are closer to each other than they are to the populists in their own camp.

    Mahmud 9th admin was good, Mahmood 10th admin gave the elitists all the excuses they needed to close the door to the populists for the next 2-3 presidential elections.

    Rohani was successful in convincing the voters that he will solve the economic problems through diplomacy, and Agha Mohsen and Jenabe Velayati helped him in this project…the disgust that many feel for Velayati today because he didn’t leave the field as he had promised and the siyah namiye that Mohsen did is intense. But they don’t give a shit because ruling is their birth right.

  34. Empty says:

    In an article titled “Israel Starts Campaign to Boost U.S. Military Aid”, it says, “Among other things, the Israelis are citing a 2008 U.S. law that for the first time legally committed Washington to maintain the Jewish state’s technological superiority — its Qualitative Military Edge, or QME, in military terminology — over its regional adversaries, particularly Iran, which has been pursuing nuclear technology.” See the full article at http : / / www . informationclearinghouse.info/article36376.htm

    It reminded me of the following discussion at RFI more than a year ago….
    http://www.raceforiran.com/flynt-leverett-on-the-nuclear-talks-with-iran#comment-85040

  35. Irshad says:

    Further from the debate about lying on the previous thread, I came across the following academic article worth reading – please lets not have that debate here, as I am not looking for one!:

    http://www.pnas.org/content/109/42/17028.full

    ________

    Thank you to everybody for responding to what books they are reading! UU Thanks for mentioning the database will have a look and hope you got some of Prof. Hamid Algars works there!

    M.Ali/Fio – I really enjoy the writigns of Steinbeck and Dostoevsky. I recently re-read Grapes of Wrath, and it vividly depicted the hardship the average American went through just to survive! Very moving. I think America is going through the same thing again, now. All that hardship and suffering only less then 3 generations later, to come back to it all! What an indictment on America’s politicians!

    Dostoevsky is a visionary writer – the Devils is brilliant. I think there are parallels to what he wrote about in his terms of the anarchists/nihilist terrorising and killing people to topple the Orthodox Church and Tsarist rule, with what Islamdom is currently going through with takfiri terrorism.

    I am currently reading the works of the English historian, AJP Taylor. I am reading the Origins of the Second World War – he is a good writer keeping the readers entertained!

    Nasser – you asked a while ago to fyi about a book to read about how England was looking to fight Communist Russia rather then Nazi Germany – read the Origins of the Second World War and England 1914-1945 both by AJP Taylor.

  36. BiBiJon says:

    Unknown Unknowns says:
    September 30, 2013 at 9:40 am

    “2. I’m still wondering that if indeed some sort of thaw is happening, why that is. Surely it cannot be that Barry White’s masters have given him leeway. Or are we all delusional and that it has not been about empire, and Uncle $cam is actually Uncle Sam and is the patriarch of a benevolent republic and not the nastiest, most brutal empire in human history. So, is it all bluster and talk (as I suspect)? And if not, what is going on? (Addressed to BiBiJon and the other optimists in her corner).”

    Simply, I don’t buy the ‘irrational actor’ argument. Power, influence and money take priority, in a longer term calculations. If US has come around, it must be because of the confluence of two reasons: a) the path they were on started to incur more and more costs, yielding less and less gains; b) they’ve spotted an opportunity to increase their power, influence, and $camming potential from a different path.

    In the meantime, the skeptics’ most constructive route is to help with the vigilance to guard against scams. If Barry’s sickly charm-n-smarm comes to naught, there’s a higher road than preparing the ground for ‘I told you so!’. Take the higher road, I say to the skeptics.

  37. Unknown Unknowns says:

    I wanted to retell a tale I heard from a Lebanese friend.

    A body guard of Hasan Nasrollah was asked about the extent of his loyalty to him. He said that if Seyyed Nasrollah told him to cut his own throat, he would do it. He was them asked how he felt about Ayatollah Khamenei. He said that if Ayatollah KHamenei ordered him, he would cut Hasan Nasrollah’s throat.

    This story is more than likely true, and is symptomatic of the loyalty all Hezbollah of Lebanon have for their authority hierarchy, which is headed not by Nasrollah but by Ayatollah Khamenei.

    All Western Middle East analysts, no matter how “expert”, are congenitally incapable of understanding this spiritual posture and mind-set.

  38. fyi says:

    All:

    Sanctions cannot be removed in any time frame and in any manner worth anything to Iran:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/unwinding-sanctions-on-iran-is-going-to-be-really-hard/280111/

  39. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    September 30, 2013 at 9:38 am

    Bibijohn

    “Fordo is already under inspections isnt it?”

    That is the point. In effect Kerry is making the deal making simpler. I.e. Don’t enrich to HEU, do AP. To which Iran says (reluctantly) OK. There you have it, a deal.

    “Why would they “talk” at all about Iran’s RIGHT to enrichment? That implies Obama doesnt recognize that right.”

    It could imply he does/will begrudgingly recognize that right, but is not in a position to ‘talk’ about it.

    “Aipac is not a spent force, why do you think that?”

    As I said before, the Syrian example. Obama asked AIPAC, and even Netanyahu himself to help sway the votes in congress for a strike on Syria. Michael Oren says Israel’s policy all along is to see ‘the bad guys’ take over in Syria, so I assume AIPAC and Netanyahu did their utmost to get the votes, and failed. Add the number of years they’ve been unsuccessfully agitating for a US war on Iran, I’ve come to the conclusion that AIPAC’s power is a myth they themselves propagate. When they are successful, it is either because they are pushing on an open door, or they’re behind an issue that no one cares about. On anything important, AIPAC is as ignorable as any other lobby.

  40. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn

    “As I said before, the Syrian example”

    Syria is not Iran. 9/10 Americans could probably not find Syria on a school map, but they put Iran on top of the biggest threat against them. There is no equal.

  41. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    September 30, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    Give it a break!

    “Three-quarters of Americans say they favor direct diplomatic negotiations with Iran in an attempt to prevent that country from developing nuclear weapons, according to a new national poll.

    Just one in five questioned in a CNN/ORC International survey released Monday morning say they opposed negotiations with Tehran.”

    From http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/30/politics/cnn-poll-iran-nuclear-weapons/

  42. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    September 30, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    “A break from what?”

    A break from scaring Iranians about Americans. Both populations overwhelmingly reject use of force where there’s a chance for a negotiated settlement. President of both countries are saying loudly there’s such a chance.

  43. Fiorangela says:

    fyi, re the Atlantic article —

    it sounded rather elementary, and a quick search for information about its author Kaveh Waddell hinted at why it did so — he’s a 2013 graduate of Middlebury college with all the expertise of a semester in Jordan to give heft to his CV.

    The article was a weak blue book exercise just a step above What I Did on my Summer Vacation. Most significant, from my very jaundiced point of view, is that Waddell did not even hint at the involvement of the Israel lobby in imposing sanctions: Keith Weissman, who worked for AIPAC in 1995 when that second round of sanctions was imposed, stated quite clearly in a conference hosted by Richard Silverstein that “AIPAC was behind the 1995 sanctions; I helped to write the legislation …”

    We know that journalists do not reveal the hand of AIPAC — Phil Weiss quotes somebody who calls AIPAC the “night flower.” And a young journalist attempting to make his mark is certainly not going to jeopardize his Big Chance by offending the 800 pound ‘night flower’ in the room.

    And that is the problem.

    Waddell is, most likely, ~23 years old: all of his life he has been saturated in holocaustism, anti-Iranianism, fear of “Islamic” terrorism, and the compelling requirement to pay obeisance to Israel and US hegemonic power. He has been taught all his life that the US is benevolent in its activities in foreign countries — spreading “liberty” and “democracy.”

    Gen. Keith Alexander spoke to a conference (sponsored by Northurp Grumman, Lockheed, etc.) last week about US security activities. He got teary-eyed when the two or three times he said, “the US is a great country; we are really a great country.” Just to prove how ‘great’ the US is, Alexander said, “last week, 950 people died in acts of terror in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan. But because your NSA employees are so dedicated to the security of the American people, not one single American died.”

    Alexander failed to mention the number of those 950 that were killed by weapons supplied by US, or mercenaries inserted by US, or turmoil created by US. Alexander is an intellectual midget, and he is teaching America’s young people, like Kaveh Waddell.

  44. Fiorangela says:

    BiBiJon says:
    September 30, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    “Steve Gutow, president and CEO of the JCPA [Jewish Committee on Public Affairs], said that Americans make a clear distinction between the Syrian case and that of Iran. “No one is enthused about going to war, but Iran is a different situation than Syria,” he said. Gutow asserted that the American public views a nuclear Iran as a threat to the United States while Syria was not perceived as such. “I don’t think the American people are divided in regards to Iran,” he said.”

    http://mjayrosenberg.com/2013/09/29/top-american-jewish-official-american-people-support-war-with-iran/

    Many Jewish Americans complain that Jewish leaders claim to speak for “all Jews,” and that’s ok.
    but here we have a Jewish leader purporting to speak in the name of ALL Americans.

    Which is one indication that the I Lobby ain’t down yet.

  45. James Canning says:

    BiBiJon,

    An official in the Obama White House said Israel is “the 800-pound gorilla in the room”, in matters involving Israel or Israeli interests. In Washington. True beyond question.

  46. James Canning says:

    BibIJon,

    I mean Aipac (is the “800-pound gorilla in the room”).

  47. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn

    Its not about “scaring” its about looking at hard facts, saying Iran and Syria is viewed equally is to fool yourself.

  48. James Canning says:

    Rd.,

    “US desperately depends on the Middle East”? In what way?

    I think you mean Israel depends upon the US. Surely.

    Russia did the US a signal service, regarding Syrian CW.

  49. James Canning says:

    Guardian reports Rouhani is looking into how to restore direct flight between New York and Tehran. Obama should do the same.

  50. Fiorangela says:

    Irshad —

    My complaint about Americans is, specifically, less about what they read, and more about their ready frame of reference, the metaphors they most often rely upon. NIAC sent out an email recently that set as its frame of reference Simorgh and the Conference of the Birds.

    I’m not sure that many Americans have a similar work of literature as a unifying frame of reference. Rather, consider these examples —

    — this morning Norman Ornstein, one of the US’s longest-running ‘public intellectuals’ used a football metaphor to make his point. Every American can relate to a football game.

    In a lengthy speech about the run-up to the second world war, Susan Dunn opened with a lengthy description of a pre-world war II movie, by Alfred Hitchcock: Hollywood is the all-around American frame of reference.

    In the conference where Gen. Alexander of NSA got all weepy about American greatness, he also boasted of American technological prowess. “I have 15 grandchildren,” he began. “My 1-year old granddaughter got hold of an i-phone, and in less than a minute had accessed Netflix and selected a cartoon.” Americans know how to play with gadgets and know where to find cartoons.

    Francis Bacon led the greatest revolution in thinking that the West has known. Bacon was wary of technology that was not grounded in sound thinking. He said that such advances could get you to your destination faster, but if the thinking behind them is not grounded in the reality of nature, that is, does not have as its first premise observations of the way the world really works, rather than authority imposed by [the Church, or hegemons, etc.], then all you have accomplished is to get to the wrong place faster.”

    Football and movies and cartoons are falsifications of nature and reality. They are not the best and highest development of the human spirit.

    – – –

    ON THE OTHER hand — Walt Whitman’s poetry is understood by many to be a unique manifestation of “Americanism.”

    Coincidentally, Dave Keubrich, a scholar at George Mason University in N. Virginia organized a “teach in” concerning the Persian Gulf war early in 1991. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/PeaceEd

  51. nico says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    September 30, 2013 at 10:57 am

    Why do you not assume that Velayatu not leaving the run was not because the SL privately un gest so ?
    It seems to me that Rohani is close to the SL (just like Jalili or Velayati) fits well the SL macro policies.

    Iranian politician are not more idiot than others.
    The poll were clear before the election with Rohani gaining traction and the princplist being splited.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_presidential_election,_2013

    My wild guess is that Rohani was programmed by the SL.
    And I already said few months ago that he seems to be programmed to become the next SL as well… Depending on his performance as president.
    Just like Khamenei has been president few decades ago.

    To indirectly support this claim, one can see the controversy of Rohani vetting.
    Obviously he is backed by powerfull allies.and surely a private word from the SL could have had tipped off the decisio.

    Well that’s only wild guess and assumption not supported by facts… No more.

    But Velayati or Jalili not backing a principlist like Ghalibaf is more than strange even if stupidity and political game could not be discarded.

  52. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Alistair Crooke in Guardian

    Syria: the strategy has backfired

    The Gulf states’ plans to undermine Iran and Syria are in tatters. But a new relationship may now emerge

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/29/syria-brink-of-solution

  53. Unknown Unknowns says:

    BiBiJon:

    Then there is this, some of which makes a lot of sense.

    http://www.todayszaman.com/blog/mahir-zeynalov-327801-iran-aligns-with-us-to-counter-sunni-world.html

  54. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    September 30, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    “Its not about “scaring” its about looking at hard facts, saying Iran and Syria is viewed equally is to fool yourself.”

    Alright, I give it a break. So long, and thanks for all the fish.

  55. Unknown Unknowns says:

    And this piece from the always-prescient Bernhard at MoA:

    http://www.moonofalabama.org/2013/09/syria-new-constellations-emerge-.html#comments

    Seems the tide has turned on the ground in Syria as well as at the Barry White House.

  56. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    nico,

    Velayati, Haddad and Qalibaf publicly and openly pledged that two would leave the field for the one with highest chance to win. Haddad kept his pledge, Velayati broke it and that’s why many people who previously respected Velayati no longer do so.

    Jalili said from the beginning that he will stay until the end and as I explained to UU there are some fundamental differences between usulis that backed Jalili (like me) and other usulis.

    We were criticized for this but the fact remains that it would have been hard for us to vote for Velayati, Rezai or Qalibaf- even though they ran under the label of usul gara. In other words there is a fight about what it means to be a usul gara and for some of us Rohani is more usul gara despite his closeness to Raf than Velayati or Rezai.

    Qalibaf would have been attractive because of his relative youth compared to the other old farts and also because of some the good things he said in the debates and challenging Rohani and Velayati on their records. But the problem with Qalibaf is that he is everything to everyone- which is a major problem.

  57. M.Ali says:

    fyi says:
    September 30, 2013 at 10:21 am
    “M.Ali says:

    September 30, 2013 at 10:07 am

    The electoral laws as well as the Guardian Councils criteria have to be altered and revised.

    Capable people are denied leadership roles in the Islamic Republic because they fail the imposed “Outward Conformance to Islam” criterion.

    This is only harming the state as the roster of candiates is needlessly limited.”

    A filtering process is practiced in every country in the world. Whether directly or indirectly. The filtering process in the west is filtered by financial abilities. In a lot of ways, the IRI system is fairer.

    However, constant restructure needs to be made, to ensure a better system. I don’t think anyone in IRI denies that, since we see constant structural changes & debates every 4 years.

    The fact that we have a stable democracy in an unstable region shows that the system is reforming itself step by step, without throwing it all under the bus.

    I;m curious to see where we shall head every 4 years.

  58. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn
    September 30, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    Well we have to see who was right after netanyahu’s visit and his speech.

  59. kooshy says:

    Unknown Unknowns says:
    September 30, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    “Then there is this, some of which makes a lot of sense.”

    Zaman’s headline “Iran aligns with US to counter Sunni world”

    UU Jaan I wonder if you paid attention to the headline of the Zaman article you linked.

    I think the headline is purposely proactive, why should Iran align with US against “Sunni World” this for sure is not in the interest of Iran, and I am sure is not and will not be policy of Iran. But for sure Iran can and should align with any government against extremist, terrorist and Takfiris who are bombing and killing to provoke the Shieh all align the region with help and knowledge of US and her allies. (My new found hope and sincere wish) is that the US has had a change of hearth and sees and stops the danger of promoting extremism they promoted for their unachievable strategic nowhere, starting with asking their client states to stop promoting ethnic divide with prints like this very headline.

  60. BiBiJon says:

    Unknown Unknowns says:
    September 30, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    I’d go a step further than that analysis. US is about to wink to a nuclear threshold status for Iran. In an attempt to isolate Iran, US has created a dangerous mess that she cannot drone her way out of. The mess is also threatening to Iran. There you have already a powerful reason for a kiss and a make up.

  61. BiBiJon says:

    Fiorangela, and James,

    My point is that the situation with Iran (whether war, or peace) is way beyond the Lobby’s league.

    http://www.lobelog.com/remember-bibis-wisdom-on-iraq-11-years-ago/

    Having listened to cries of wolf once, no one with an ounce of patriotism is going to countenance a disaster 3 times larger, just on Israel’s say so.

    It is not the Lobby’s past successes I am quibbling about. It is in the current state of affairs that I contend the Lobby is way out of her depth. Do you suppose the Lobby approved of Obama chasing after Rouhani, and proudly talking about it in a press conference? It seems to me WH doesn’t care; only very very big boys are invited to weigh in.

  62. Ataune says:

    @Bibijon

    “… There you have already a powerful reason for a kiss and a make up.”

    You make it sound really close. Even though I think we are in a much better shape than 3 or 4 years ago, there is still a long and slow way to go. It requires sagacity and statemanship to advance towards where the normal realtionship should stand, in particular on the American side.

    For an observer to conclude that the US has brought herself closer to steps that will take her to the reasonable Iranian position -normal relationship, although not at any cost- 2 steps at least should be taken before: the resolution of the nuclear dossier in terms favorable to the Islamic Republic, i.e. the recognition of Iran’s right to enrich; and the unblocking of Iran’s financial assets -which is an automatic cancellation of the financial sanctions by the West.

    Both these steps, will telegraph, after almost two geenrations, a colossal shift in the US strategic thinking. The realistic conditions are more than ripe for this kind of U turn in the American side, but the obstacle are enormous as well. The almost opposite interests of the duo Israel/Saoud being the foremost.

  63. nico says:

    BiBiJon says:
    September 30, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    “I’d go a step further than that analysis. US is about to wink to a nuclear threshold status for Iran. In an attempt to isolate Iran, US has created a dangerous mess that she cannot drone her way out of. The mess is also threatening to Iran. There you have already a powerful reason for a kiss and a make up.”

    Why don’t you go down the full road ?
    Is that imaginable that the US by wrecking havock in the sunni world and creating/encouraging/supporting such polariztion against shia were trying to separate Iran from their Muslim bethren as per Iran ideology. That in order to divide and rule.
    Now that the split is full open the potential for the US u turn in their alliance is there. That did not obtain 10 years ago.

    Said otherwise did the US succeed in making the sunni (really KSA wahabi) the first enemy as seen according to Iran perspective ?
    I mean the first threat against the US influence is for the regional countries to be united. Such policy being supported by Iran since the Revolution.

    Again that is wild guess and theoritical…

    As a conclusion, do you think Iran would be ready to ally itself with the US against mainly sunni countries ?

    I mean, the wahabi seem that idiot, extremist, dangerous and repulsive…

    Everyone insight on this subject is welcome.

  64. BiBiJon says:

    nico says:
    September 30, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    You make a very good point. Just one caveat: Saudi/Sunni/Arab support for Saddam predates PNAC, 2001, and “axis of evil.” Concurrent with Saudi support for the Taliban versus USSR in the 80s.

    According to polls, the Arab street does not quite share the Arab despots’ perspective on Iran. Syrian oppositions’ behavior may well have the Arab street back in Iran’s corner.

  65. James Canning says:

    BiBiJon,

    great piece by Jim Lobe that you just linked (regarding idiotic advice of Bibi Netanyahu 11 years ago to invade Iraq rather than deal with al-Qaeda). Netanyahu’s complicity in the conpiracy to set up the illegal US invasion of iraq is something we need to remember.

    Aipac will do its best to block any improvement in US-Iran relations. Of that we can be certain.

  66. fyi says:

    nico says:

    September 30, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    You are reading too much into this – there are not many smart people in US government who could think that long term and know and manipulate all the players.

    The fact is that they have been played by Israelis and the Persian Gulf Arabs for several decades.

    They go to a bar in Tel Aviv or attend a Diwaniyah somewhere on the Arabian penninsula and they think they have those people on the palms of their hands.

    The Arab world has been against Iran since at least 1956 if not earlier.

    The Iran-Iraq War cemented that division.

    As for Sunni Arabs being a threat to Iran; not at the moment and not for generations – they have zero strategic depth and zero ability to wage a war against Iran.

    Iran is not threatened by them – “Let enemies surround me!” is our motto in Iran.

    US cannot perform a U-turn in regards to Iran unders this US President and his government.

    It is doubtful that she can do so under any president; we need to see if and when another Nixon emerges.

    At the moment, Iran remians the number of one enemy of Israel and therefore the number one enemy of the United States.

  67. Fiorangela says:

    BiBiJon says:
    September 30, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    OK, I understand your point of view, BiBiJon.

    Yours is an Iranocentric (is that a word?) perspective; mine is American.

    Iran has demonstrated that Israel is incapable of following through on its little-boy threats, “stop me or I’ll kill ’em.”

    US, on the other hand, is still very much in the thrall of the zionists. The influence has persisted for several generations, as I (inarticulately) tried to express in the comment about Kaveh Wadell. It’s going to take a lot of re-educating to get deeply embedded zionism out of the US mainstream — and education system. Americans did not look upon zionism as a threat.

  68. Rehmat says:

    Dr. Paul Craig Roberts’ recent statement could be a warning for Hassan Rouhani and Ayatullah Khamenei.

    “Before you believe “your” government’s lies about Syria, remember “your” government’s lies about Saddam Hussein’s “weapons of mass destruction.” Remember Washington’s lies about the Gulf of Tonkin that unleashed the Vietnam war. Remember the lies about Gaddafi and Libya. Remember the lies about 9/11, the lies about the murders of JFK, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King,” wrote Roberts.

    Rouhani’s foreign minister, professor Mohammad Javad Zarif has never been at good terms with the pro-Israel Jewish groups for having views on Holocaust simliar to Dr. Ahmadinejad.

    “I believe that numerous crimes and violence had occurred during WWII. This question must be proposed in this manner; that what was the crime of the Palestinians in the violence of WWII?”, he said at the Columbia University where Iranian President Dr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was insulted earlier for questioning the Zionist narrative of Holocaust.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/09/30/obama-lied-about-bin-laden-murder/

  69. Persian Gulf says:

    fyi says:
    September 30, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    I think the phone conversation (after foreign ministers’ face to face encounter) was the point of no return. and Obama could sell it relatively easy internally (not much of backlash indeed). I think Iran and the US have gone too far, in the past 10 days, that returning back to the per-conversation status would be hard. at worse the relationship will be something like Iran-Britain’s one.

    I think Americans know very well that, having caused Khatami to fail, they can’t tolerate Rouhani’s failure as well, now that SL has openly endorsed the move, as it will probably be the last chance to keep Iran within NPT. A further breaking news would be Kerry’s visit to Tehran in 3-4 months, or opening an interest section in Kish…. Whether the US is willing to go that far, I think we will have to only wait and see.

    At the end of the day, the moves were good for Iran PR wise regardless of the outcome. It looks somehow like reversing Obama’s first term tactic.

    BiBiJon:

    Here is what Obama did after his phone conversation with Rouhani 😀

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iSEEH0HXDUo

  70. Neo says:

    UU jan,

    Interesting posts on this page… The ‘Smith/Matrix comment really tickled me!

    Seems that you are surprised at Rohani’s success both in the elections and in improving relations with the US.

    I was surprised by his election win, but only because he is a mullah, and I didn’t believe Iranians would vote for another aakhoond in this day and age… Turns out most Iranian voters are more open minded and less prejudiced than me :)

    The way I see it today: Khatami was the thesis; Mahmoud was the antithesis, and Rohani is the synthesis. It’s nothing to do with usuli and qeyr-e usuli. Sanctions had to be defeated/lifted, and people (including Khamenei) felt that a new approach was needed.

    But in relation to the US, there should be no surprise with the timing. I think any other Iranian president would have been in the same situation. Once Obama won his second term, and Mahmoud-the-ideal-scapegoat was gone, and with the Libyan, Afghan and Syrian disasters of today on top of the Iraqi quagmire of yesterday, the Americans would have to even more crazy than they have been in the past to miss this opportunity for detente with Iran.

    It should have come years ago, but then again, that would have required sharper US leadership. Let’s be realistic now….!

  71. Dan Cooper says:

    fyi says:

    September 30, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    “At the moment, Iran remians the number of one enemy of Israel and therefore the number one enemy of the United States”

    I think the opposite is true so allow me to rephrase your sentence to;

    Israel remains the number of one enemy of Iran and therefore the number one enemy of any kind of rapporchma between the United States and Iran.

  72. Neo says:

    To all:

    Is Rohani already a potential threat to both Khamenei and Rafsanjani’s power?

    Why did General Jafari criticize Rohani for talking to Obama by phone?

  73. nico says:

    fyi says:
    September 30, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    As stated numerous times, I am also skeptical.

    But one need to recognize that there is a dramatic change in tone from the US.
    Such diplomatic posture will be difficult to change without a good excuse.
    By showing flexibility and providing sweeteners Iran will make the excuse difficult to obtain for the US at this juncture.
    Iran already stated that enrichment will never stop and that substantial lifting of sanctions shall be necessary.
    Whatever the US rhetoric, they cannot deny knowing that and they implicitly agree on those terms by looking for rapprochement.

    Whatever the end result it is already an important victory for Iran as it will encourage other countries to be much less compliant with the US unilateral sanctions.
    It will also encourage Russia and China to offer more deals to Iran in order to keep their respective position here.

    As for the US u turn in alliance. My take is that it will never happen regarding Israel.
    However the u turn regarding KSA even if unlikely is partially possible.
    1) The US could still play the shia against the wahabi and adapt their support depending on the situation.

    The main US goal was maybe to make the divide between KSA and Iran irreversible.
    They succeeded in that. As the biggest threat from their perpesctive is for Iran and KSA to be aligned on a same anti-US and Isreal position. This option is now definitly dead like the Iran dream of an united Ummah because of the KSA hatred and idiocy.
    Yyes the US definitly succeeded in polarizing the Wahabi and Iran against each other.

    2) That still depend on Iran position regarding Israel. Iran would need to tone down its rhetoric and accept the statu quo there. By the way, Rohani diplomatic coded language of “moderation” could be interpreted as such.
    And if backed by the SL as seems likely, could satisfy both Israel and the US.

    Conditions 1) and 2) need to be met for a detente, coupled with softened containment policy.
    Ane I think the US could live with that.
    Actually, in term of stratgic calculus this condition should be compared to continued hatred with Iran and extremism getting out of control in the region. And MB or wahabi taking hold of power in various regional country.
    What is preferable ?
    All in all the US and Israel would still have all options open to reverse their aliances in the region and play the chaos there.

  74. nico says:

    If it happens it would bea huge victory for Iran and allies a set back for just everyone else…

  75. Karl.. says:

    Troubling that iranian FM dont correct the ignorant inviewer about weapons grade enrichment..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jezs-ZTrK6E

  76. Karl.. says:

    What will happen next is that netanyahu today will present this or that information that will ruin any possible raprroachment imo.

  77. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    nico and others,

    1- Let’s assume we move forward to detail negotiations between Iran and US.

    Iran would say that we will enrich to 20% for medical and non-military purposes, won’t enrich to weapons grade and you can fully inspect through IAEA- with additional protocol which Majlis announced it would not ratify. No closing of this or that plant. In return you lift economic sanctions- unilateral and UN ones- and positively acknowledge our right to enrich on our soil- in writing signed by all P5+1. And all of this in less than 6 months or else you can shove NPT.

    Is Obama capable of saying yes to this?

    Lifting UN sanctions can be done, but what about US unilateral sanctions with a Congress owned by the Zionists? And what about sanctions on Iranian rocket program? Iranians consider those part of the “nuclear” sanctions. Obama and Kerry say Iran has the right to enrich but will they put in writing- Susan Rice says no.

    Anything less than this is not acceptable to the Iranians- regardless of who is President in Iran and US.

    And let’s assume Obama says no and Iran shoves NPT, will US-Israel launch airstrikes with this excuse? Very unlikely given Iran’s response.

    So either US accepts Iran’s terms as stated or buries NPT with Iran’s exit and risking other countries following suit.

    I don’t think Obama and Kerry have thought it through all the way.

    2- In terms of Wahabis-Takfiris/Sunnis, the big story of the Syria war is that there is a split between mainstream Sunnis and Wahabi-Takfiris now. This is exactly what Iran has been after for years. And yes MB missed the boat on that but the majority of Sunnis in the Arab world look at Iran, Hezbollah, Ayat Sistani and Shias on the one hand and they look at Saudis, al Qaeda, Taleban and assorted cannibals on the other side and mostly prefer the first.

    Like I said after the Morsi fiasco, the MB movement is in deep crisis after it was stabbed in the back by the Custodians of the Two Holy Shrines and many of them realized (beginning with Hamas) the advantages of being Shia-friendly.

    3- US has to choose between Iran and Saudi in the long-run and knows that Iran is better in the long run but can’t do it because of urgent, shorter-term interests of Saudi oil sales in dollars and related dollar hegemony and historic hegemony over Persian Gulf region in global affairs following WWII- as Chas Freeman said: “Access, Transit, Strategic Denial”.

    “Strategic Denial” is not simply a military matter for the US- it is symbolic of it’s Divine mission as leader of human civilization, chosen people and exceptional nation.

    Giving that up would be the end of America itself as it is imagined by its elites.

  78. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    should be: “withOUT additional protocol…”

  79. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/10/01/327020/obama-flipflop-destroys-trust-zarif/

    “Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif has warned that US President Barack Obama’s ‘flip-flop destroys trust,’ saying the American president needs to be consistent to promote mutual confidence.”

  80. Rehmat says:

    @Karl – As a Canadian, I can say that under Stephen Harper, my country has become an Israeli whore.

    Last week, Harper welcomed Rwandan president Paul Kagame in Canada. Kagame, is no doubt world’s greatest war criminal still in power – but he is “Israel’s Harper” in Africa.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/09/26/rwandan-president-kagame-in-canada/

  81. BiBiJon says:

    Fiorangela says:
    September 30, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    Anshel Pfeffer: “Netanyahu is arriving too late with his truth. The party is over and he wasn’t even invited.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/01/binyamin-netanyahi-un-voice-wilderness

    Simon Tisdall: “Netanyahu got a bruising reminder this week: between Iran and the US is Israel’s hard place.”

    From Guardian “Israel squeezed out by Iran and US goodwill”

    “Officials say that some 250 Jewish leaders and AIPAC activists will storm the halls on Capitol Hill beginning next week to persuade lawmakers that Congress must adopt the resolution or risk emboldening Iran’s efforts to build a nuclear weapon. They are expected to lobby virtually every member of Congress, …”

    From Politico: “AIPAC to go all-out on Syria”

    Fior joon,

    Regardless of perspectives, Iran-centric, US-centric, or otherwise, I think AIPAC’s past successes, today stands in sharp contrast to its failures on the most crucial issues near and dear to Israel.

  82. Rd. says:

    Fiorangela says:

    “US, on the other hand, is still very much in the thrall of the zionists.”

    perhaps a more apt comparison of zionist and capitalism/power, is how female blowflies are attracted to a dead body (smelling the blood from miles away).

    Perhaps some forensic entomologist can analysis the changes in US behavior!!!

  83. Karl.. says:

    Rehmat

    Yeah, I have no idea what got into, especially canadian FM that talks more about Israel than Canada itself.

  84. Fiorangela says:

    Rd. says: October 1, 2013 at 9:04 am

    #1. eeeww

    #2. not positive but I think blowflies have very short lives.

    #3. From Christopher O’Sullivan’s “FDR and the End of Empire.” The British (and French) were the original evildoers who colonized Middle East, first, in aftermath of World War I. Conquest of the Ottoman empire was the real agenda of WWI; as horrendous as it was, action on the European continent was a distraction. Having been a minority group throughout their history, Jews, specifically zionists, were minority players in the war that was primarily Britain’s/ Winston Churchill’s enormously racist bid to control Arabs and Persia and especially their oil and geostrategic routes. Chaim Weizmann worked “in the niches” (h/t Milton Friedman) to gain advantages for Jews in this conquest of Ottoman empire: Herzl had tried for a decade to make a deal with the Ottoman sultan to acquire Palestine for Jews, but he was unsuccessful; Weizmann took a different approach and sealed the deal.

    Germans were actually more humanistic and respectful of Arab/Persian ambitions for self-determination, according to O’Sullivan. Germany was, of course, vanquished therefore unable to be of any assistance to the Middle East in interwar period.

    In WWII Germany delegated Middle East policy and activity to Italians and later Vichy France; both were perfidious and were more concerned with pursuing their own agendas.

    O’Sullivan uses US diplomatic communiques to demonstrate that US diplomats were aware that Arabs hated British and French and for that reason would rather ally with German forces, and that FDR made several gestures to recognize and support Arab & Persian self determination with a philosophy that emphasized “reciprocity and mutual respect.” FDR’s death was a disaster for the Arab/Persian world.

    I submit that Churchill was determined to have a second war to “seal the deal” in ME, and to destroy the greatest threat to British (and French) dominance of Arab and Persian peoples, resources, and geostrategic access. Once again, zionists worked in the interstices to “seal THEIR deal” — complete dominance of Palestine, including expulsion of the British: Felix Frankfurter and Louis Brandeis were major actors in FDR’s administration. In “Those Angry Days,” Frankfurter is described as an “Anglophile;” other researchers have unearthed evidence that Frankfurter conducted back-channel communications directly with Churchill, working around both official Washington and official London government diplomatic protocols.

    US “victory” in WWII was cited as the vision that fired Bush I’s invasion of Iraq in 1990-91. In other words, Bush I took the mantle of British colonization of the ME onto American shoulders.

    In 1990, when Papa Bush contrived to invade Iraq, Saddam was described as “Hitler.” Ahmadinejad has been described as Hitler.
    Rouhani is Hitler.
    Assad is Hitler.
    None of the above was “Hitlerian,” and a careful reading of, i.e. Lynne Olson’s “Those Angry Days” makes a powerful case that the “Hitlerization” of Hitler was the work of an army of British propagandists whose one goal was to draw US into a war that Churchill had neither the money nor the army nor the weaponry to fight, but that he was determined to carry out — see, for example, Winston S. Churchill, grandson of St. Winston of Churchill, who recounts that his father, Randolph Churchill visited Winston shortly after WC became prime minister.
    Grandsonny narrated that his grandfather was nearly naked (for some reason, Churchill naked is a recurrent theme in Winnie hagiography); he was shaving, and said to his son Randolph, punctuated with swipes of the razor: “I know how to solve my problem. — The Americans will fight the war for us.” http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/LegacyofC

    #4. This blowfly has been sucking on the corpse for several generations. Time to analyze mitochondrial DNA, from Britain —> USA w/ zionists operating , exploiting first Germany– the initial colonization of Palestine was led by German Jews who sought to civilize, i.e. create the “new Jew” of the “human material” of Russian Jews, considered by both Vladimir Jabotinsky and Arthur Ruppin (a committed eugenicist) to be of inferior stock in need of elevation to standards set by Jews who had assimilated German systems and practices. The next –> was the British, who supported the ‘niche’ players until Churchill lost an empire that took several decades to ultimately die, but a –> transfer was made well before the death of the British empire: since 1933 until today, the USA has supported the niche players.

    #5. Is Netanyahu ready to fly on his own?

  85. Karl.. says:

    netanyahu will speak in about 1 hour. Check live: http://gadebate.un.org/

  86. fyi says:

    Rehmat says:

    October 1, 2013 at 7:43 am

    Mr. Kagame is indubitably the man who saved Tutsis from alomost certain extinction in Rwanda.

    The late Mr. Mitterand was the man most responsible for the genocide of the Tutsis by Hutus in that unfortunate country.

  87. fyi says:

    Persian Gulf says:

    September 30, 2013 at 9:56 pm

    Large sectors of Iranian society blame the sanctions for the end of their subsidy-driven life styles.

    Mr. Khamenei has stated many times that no productive negogiations are possible with the Axis Powers.

    Evidently, many do not believe him – inside or outside of the Iranian government.

    So, he is letting Mr. Rouhani try again – this is not new for him; he endorsed the same program under Mr. Rafsnajani, Mr. Khatami, and Mr. Ahmadinejad.

    They all failed as this one will fail too.

    Axis Powers are not yet ready – in my opinion – for strategic settlement with Iran.

    [You know they are when the nuclear file is reverted back to IAEA, for example.]

    In the meantime, Mr. Khameneiwill be watching from the sidelines, ready to punce: “I told you simpletons that they only want to negogiate our surrender.”

    But this time, no one inside or outside of Iran can blame the Office of Supreme Jurisprudent for blocking Iran-US rapproachement.

    I estimate that Mr. Khamenei is actually pleased with the sanctions since the sanction are advancing what he had been advocating for 20 years; re-design and re-orient Iranian economy away from oil and oil income.

    He has no incentive to alter that at this stage when Iranians are forced to move in his strategic direction.

    As for US, nothing that they have dones is irreversible – they still want to destroy Islamic Republic.

    What they want is really for Iran to give up all her connections and alliances in Lebanon, in Syria, in Iraq, and in Afghanistan as well as all of her nuclear industry.

    For them – Axis Powers – that is what rapproachment means: a non-nuclear Iran and a defunct Shia Crescent at the mercy of any and all.

    Well, that is not going to happen.

    On a side note:

    I think Iranian leaders need to recruit beardless strategists that could explain all of this to other Iranians.

    The beard-less social strata in Iran do not believe what the government says – “we are at war with the United States” which is what Mr. Ahmadinejad said 3 weeks ago – is not believed by them since they hear it only from the mouth of the beareded crowds.

  88. Fiorangela says:

    #6. a. Croesus misinterpreted the oracle (i.e. based his thinking on propaganda not facts); attacked Iran and lost his empire, Lydia.

    b. Churchill ginned up wars based on propaganda. He lost his empire.

    c. The fuel of American discourse is propaganda. US is heir to the British imperial quest. Will America similarly lose its empire?

  89. Rd. says:

    fyi says:

    “Axis Powers are not yet ready – in my opinion – for strategic settlement with Iran.”

    One issue I see with your line is, US and IRI are not in the same ‘strategic’ level. This is not US vs soviets, and I don’t think IRI is looking at it as such. They seem to be more pragmatic, yet principled.

    If there is an opportunity to further the cause of the country, it seems, they will work to resolve issues with US. This does not imply they give up on their principals, enrichment, support of Hezbollah, etc..

    So the question is, do you think US just got up one day and saw Rouhani administration and figured, they are willing to give up on enrichment, or Hezbollah? Not likely.

    We know ME plays an important part in US domination.

    Currently, US is engaged militarily with the takfiris/AQ/Taliban and assorted Wahhabi disease in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somali, Sudan, Libya, etc…. and is slowly bleeding.

    At the same time, US is also facing Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and has to spend various capital to counter the resistance.

    US is also facing Russia and China and their oppositions to varying degree. Ten years ago, it was not an issue. Today, however, it is taxing and they need to change the calculations on the ground.

    Does this mean US is now all but lovey dovey with Islamic Republic? Obviously not. We all know the nuclear issue is just a pretext. As a pretext, it can be removed, and/or replaced by another pretext. However, till they get to pop the cord from the right flavor vodka to get the bear dancing to their tune [or other calculus] , the game of detente with Iran is afoot. After all, isn’t this blog has been all about the detente? to protect US interest? [not IRI]

    So lets see how IRI can capitalize on this one, regardless of US ‘offer’.

  90. Unknown Unknowns says:

    Kooshy-san: sure, but that’s why I said that *some* of the article made a lot of sense. There was a post from one of the highly informed commenters at MoA saying that the article was printed in a magazine which is Turkish with Israel-friendly leanings.

    The thing about any article anywhere is that one has to know where the writer is coming from. One cannot evaluate text without context. I can say one thing, and someone else can say the exact same thing, and the two statements can have entirely different meanings. Meanings that are diametrically opposed, even. (This is why I can call myself a sand-n!663r, but if whitey calls me that, he is out of line. Point is, it goes without saying (or should go without saying) that everyone has an angle they are selling, and nothing is gospel (except teh Qoran, of course – but even then, it cannot be understood without the context, which can only be gleaned by BOTH Shi’a and Sunni sources, which requires a high level of expertise and life-time dedication, hence the need for the Magesterium (velayat/ feqahat/ rowhaniat/ ejtehad/ marja’iat & taqlid).

    BiBi-Jon & Neo-ji: I basically agree with my Basiji brother about this. There is no way Barry White can do anything, even if he wanted to. And so, I answer my own question: the reason for this “opening” etc. is that We-B-Weasels is a mental spastic as a result of its decision-making centers having been occupied by (primarily) Jewish interests. Spastic is as spastic does. Life is NOT a box of chocolates. It’s a freakin’ snake pit. And Bob is not your uncle either.

    *

    It is a cosmic war (that we are engaged in), and as the fabric of the cosmos is moral, it is a war of good against evil. Except that it is not that one religion and/ or civilization is good and the rest evil. It is the battle of good and evil elements in each. The only qualifier, if it needs to be stated, is that the Jewish religion and culture and state (together with its diaspora, of course) is woefully bereft of good elements, to the point that it is no longer hanging on a thread – since that nation swallowed the poison pill of their own making (Zionism) and assimilated it in the past century, those elements have become the exception that underscores the rule.

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article179295.html

    That’s what’s the deal we’re dealing in, as Frank Zappa would say.

    QED.

  91. Smith says:

    Not to mention that French assassinated Rwandan president Juvénal Habyarimana and Burundian president Cyprien Ntaryamira, kick-starting the Rwandan genocide. Another western coup attempt gone wild. That continent’s history is full of such western atrocities. Take the case of Patrice Lumumba or Herbert Chitepo among countless like them. So brazen the white mans is, that son of English prime minister Thatcher was going around Africa conducting coups, killings and torture living the life of a crime boss.

  92. Smith says:

    Unknown Unknowns says:
    October 1, 2013 at 11:36 am

    It is really useless to engage people like you but as a last attempt to clarify things, I am still waiting for you to bring your permission from Marja’ authorizing you to use filthy language, do ghaibat, lie, attempt to takfir and abusing people left and right.

    But then I know that you are a monafeq.

  93. Smith says:

    Iran just announced the plan for building more nuclear power plants in southern shores of Iran along with slaved DESALINATING plants.

    A sane decision. As I had explained in my first post on this thread.

    Though highly doubtful, that Russia would build them. Iran would have to build them alone.

  94. fyi says:

    Rd. says:

    October 1, 2013 at 11:18 am

    The strategic disparity is understood but in the previois thread I outlined what a settlement with Iran could entail in detail.

    I imagine you read my comments on the previous thread?

    I think – per your point – the existence of this strategic disparity gives a false sense of preponderance to the Axis Powers – that they can leverage this superiority into inevitability.

    That has been the bane of their strategic calculations – in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Syria and against Iran.

    US alone could take over Mexico but then what?

  95. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 1, 2013 at 11:54 am

    Yes, Russians will not build anything unless Iranians suspend enrichment etc.

    Nor will there be any new weapons system sold by Russia to Iran.

  96. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 1, 2013 at 10:51 am

    “I think Iranian leaders need to recruit beardless strategists that could explain all of this to other Iranians.

    The beard-less social strata in Iran do not believe what the government says – “we are at war with the United States” which is what Mr. Ahmadinejad said 3 weeks ago – is not believed by them since they hear it only from the mouth of the beareded crowds.”

    That is because they have lied so much, that no one believes them anymore. They behave like the Zionist Jews: that they are special and the rest of humanity is filth. Almost all of them that I met were monafeq. While their own daughters and sisters had simultaneous sexual relationship with half a dozen men, they would go out and beat girls for wearing non-black clothes and showing their ankles.

    Almost all of them receive economic benefits (official bribes) for services rendered. Many hold properties with ill gotten wealth in places like Dubai, Malaysia and such. That is why ordinary Iranian has difficulty to trust such people with such track record. It is almost impossible to get research funding for a beardless competent researcher working on critical problems with huge implication for national economy while these monafeq go about getting financed for doing nothing.

  97. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 1, 2013 at 12:03 pm

    In a sense it would be a very good thing. Iran will be forced to develop its own technologies and the corrupt segment of Iran’s society would be crippled because of sanctions limiting their attempt to steal from Iranians and invest abroad.

    The best things in the world have come about under harsh conditions. This is Iran’s chance to prove itself.

    Take the example of Canada’s famed and most safe nuclear reactor design “CANDU”. It came about, because Canada did not have the technology to build high pressure steel vessels for nuclear reactor cores and US did not want to provide Canada with this technology. So Canada invented CANDU which is even better and safer than the standard PWR high pressures core, which provides significant power to Canada’s grid as well as having exported these reactors to different countries such as India, Pakistan, China etc etc.

    Or take the example of famous German genius. Under most brutal sanctions by British and Americans, Germans invented one of the most important inventions in human history: the famous Haber–Bosch process. This process is so important that I would personally categorize this as the top technology process ever produced by human beings. It made possible the production of synthetic fertilizers without which modern agriculture would not be possible. Half of all protein in the bodies of entire human population today has been created not by natural process but by Haber-Bosch process. Just imagine. Half of human flesh and skin is actually German made. All because of sanctions.

    Iran should also prove itself accordingly.

  98. Karl.. says:

    as I said yesterday netanyahu tries to destroy Iran in his speech but its pretty bleak effort, same nonsense as usual..

  99. Unknown Unknowns says:

    Agent Smith says: “I am still waiting for you to bring your permission from Marja’”.

    Agent Smith: I certainly hope you are holding your breath while waiting.

  100. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 1, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    Until, Iran does not invest heavily in R&D (to the tune of 3% of GDP) and promote and facilitate an entrepreneurial business environment around this R&D with strong private-government partnership under government patronage with guaranteed right of private ownership, Iran’s economy will remain the toilet hole, it has always been.

    Another part of the story, is the lack of useful technical education in Iran’s educational system. You see lots of young people wasting their lives learning to play guitar in college while they should become TIG welder or NDT technician.

    In this respect Iran can learn alot from German entrepreneurial model of medium sized production units as well as its world class technical training apprenticeship system. Iran should really study the Deutscher Werkbund history and how it led to German highly quality industries.

  101. Smith says:

    Unknown Unknowns says:
    October 1, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    So you accept that you are a monafeq. That is no surprise. Thanks for clarifying and goodbye.

  102. nico says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    October 1, 2013 at 7:09 am

    I agree with you. That is the real and true question.
    The question being : are we to the point where the US will concede strategic independence to Iran depending on the US cost-benefit strategic calculus ?
    Iran will not be cheated or accept anything less.
    All surrounding discussion is merely entertainment.
    And in my previous post I just stated that that possibility even if unlikely cannot be outright discarded.
    Anyway the path taken by Rohani has no backdrop but only advntages and Iran has made clear that no strategic independence shall be abandonned BUT implied that major US interets could be respected and preserved through Iran “moderation”.

    Wait and see.

    Time will tell.

    http://old.mehrnews.com/en/newsdetail.aspx?NewsID=1828647

    Interedting interview of Mr Cartalucci.
    Excerpt.

    “Throughout the US’ foreign policy papers regarding Iran, and perhaps summarized best in the Brookings Institution’s 2009 “Which Path to Persia?” , the prospect of Iran obtaining nuclear weapons is not even considered an actual threat to global security or American security – but rather a threat to Western geopolitical influence in the Middle East. A nuclear-armed Iran represents a nation no longer capable of being threatened, invaded, or otherwise coerced. Likewise, the advancement of science and technology in Iran, even for entirely peaceful purposes, will enable it to become increasingly self-sufficient and able to weather the sanctions and subversion it is subjected to by the West and its regional allies. Any progress in Iran is unacceptable to the West unless it happens under the direction of a client regime that answers directly to Wall Street and London. Since that is not the current geopolitical reality, regardless of Iran’s intentions with its nuclear program, politicians in America may claim they are ready for negotiations and may even come to the table, but covert subversion, crippling economic sanctions, and battle plans will still drive their true agenda.”

    “For those who may believe the policies fleshed out in Brookings’ “Which Path to Persia?” report are outdated, we need only read one of its author’s, Kenneth Pollack’s recent New York Times piece titled, “Short of a Deal, Containing Iran Is the Best Option,” where Pollack states, “properly understood, containment would put pressure on Iran in various ways, to keep it on the defensive and to encourage the end of the regime. It would hold in place painful sanctions. It would include covert assistance to the Iranian opposition, cyber warfare in response to Iran’s support for terrorism, and continued diplomatic isolation.””

    “If history serves us any instructive lessons, it is that US rapprochement is the harbinger of an impending and immense betrayal where the West attempts to get in close under the guise of diplomacy and progress, only to use that closer proximity to array covert assets against the targeted nation. This was seen in Libya where Muammar Qaddafi was reproached by the West, having given up his chemical and nuclear weapons ambitions and with promises of greater economical and diplomatic relations, to have the West covertly arm, train, and equip terrorists in Benghazi. These terrorists would use the so-called “Arab Spring” as a smokescreen for a full-scale proxy war against the Libyan government, which with NATO backing, they won.”

    “The only way the US will adopt a policy that benefits Iran is if Iran makes the US adopt such a policy from a position of economic, strategic, and geopolitical strength. We can expect any negotiations between the US and Iran to include US demands for Iran to dismantle many of the institutions and capabilities it currently possesses that have already demonstrably prevented or blunted Western aggression and subversion. To give in to any of these demands would be folly, and just like with Qaddafi, will be cited as one of the primary reasons the West was finally able to prevail over Iran.”

  103. Unknown Unknowns says:

    Just heard that the rest of the (primarily Jewish-owned) media is reporting that it was Iran who initiated the phone call. Cowboy desperado.

    Inshallah ke yek mosht-e mohkam-e dige dar dahan-e estekbar khahim zad.

  104. James Canning says:

    In his Wall Street Journal column today, Brett Stephens complains that Netanyahu has ceded too much control to Obama, over Israeli actions regarding Iran.

  105. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Cordesman wants Israel to upgrade its nuclear attack capability! Nonsense, in my view. I thinbk Putin is quite right to say Israel has zero need for nukes.

  106. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Friedman appears to argue that the “surge” in Iraq was a good idea. Wrong. G W Bush should have made deals with Iran and Syria and pulled all US troops out of Iraq.

    Bush was told before the idiotic invasion was launched, that destroying Sunni power structure would ensure a Shia gov’t in Iraq, friendly toward Iran.

  107. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    What “empire” does the US stand to “lose”? The US would be much stronger if it spent far less on unnecessary “defence”.

  108. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Britain did not want war with Turkey in 1914. Full stop. And the Ottoman Empire obviously secured its own demise by foolishly attacking Russia.

  109. nico says:

    Fyi,

    As usual those so called strategic analysis are only BS.
    Every word in them seems wrong, full of double speech and idiotic.
    Nothing to be expected from well paid idiots who only need to release some periodic fraudulent analysis to get their pay check.

  110. James Canning says:

    Bussed-in Basiji,

    You ask if Obama could accept Iranian enrichment to 20. I think in the short run this is highly unlikely.

  111. Kathleen says:

    Feel such gratitude for the Leverett’s unwavering efforts to inform the public about Iran and other middle east issues based on facts. Still wondering(and pushing for) when one of the evening MSNBC host will have you on to discuss these issues?

  112. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says: October 1, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    “What “empire” does the US stand to “lose”?
    The US would be much stronger if it spent far less on unnecessary “defence”.”

    = = =
    asked and answered.

    empires are potato chips: it’s impossible to stop consuming/expanding until one has reached the bottom of the bag.

    In 1990 with the end of the Cold War, Bush I was Alexander looking for new worlds to conquer.
    He lighted on Iraq as the then-weakest but most potentially profitable, in terms of risk-reward. Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait offered him a Pearl Harbor/Gulf of Tonkin opportunity without the necessity of a false flag.
    His calculation was wrong, but the US keeps factoring the same equation. As early as August 20, 1990, libertarian Ted Galen Carpenter was able to identify the flaws and pitfalls in Bush’s invasion strategy, but Bush was consumed with ideology perpetuated by British propaganda before, during and after WWII: that the US had a moral mission to maintain order in the world; that the US was the “indispensable nation,” that starving Iraqis to death was an appropriate price to pay to ensure that the world knew that the US was in charge. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/EventsintheM

  113. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    You have not shown me where this US “empire” is. Are you claiming that Kuwait is a possession of the US?

  114. Fiorangela says:

    continued

    regarding starving people into submission, as US did in Iraq and is attempting to do in Iran —

    A few days after Ted Galen Carpenter criticized Bush I’s plan to invade/sanction Iraq, Phil Nicolaides, then director of Voice of America, organized a group of public intellectuals in Washington to raise their voices in opposition to the Bush war plan.

    Among the members of that coalition was Sheldon Richman, who observed that “few people acknowledge that the British blockade of Germany that produced so much suffering, and that continued even past German surrender, was the immediate motive for the rise of Hitler.” http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Aver When people’s children are deliberately starved to death, they are prone to get testy. Who knew?

    Certainly not Juan Zarate, who lives a fat and happy life in a gated community in Virginia. On C Span last Sunday Zarate said, “US does not have trade with Iran, so we needed to figure out some other way to hurt them.”

    What monster formulates policy on the basis of “finding ways to hurt civilians?

    Britain did, as Sheldon Richman mentioned, and US does, as a long and shameful record gives evidence. Juan Zarate is the product of that long, unpunished history.

  115. fyi says:

    nico says:

    October 1, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    I think Dr. Friedman’s instincts are correct although sometimes his conclusions are suspect.

    Dr. Cordesman essentially saying that US is best settle with Iran now or pay much much higher costs across the board.

    Dr. Frieman makes mistakes, Dr. Cordesman is disingenous and not candid about the strategic situation.

  116. kooshy says:

    Reading translation of Mr. Zarif’s most recent Facebook, if correctly translated I can see that the best they are hoping for is a possible détente and not even a strategic understanding.

    In my opinion even that is still mostly wishful thinking, I wish the Iranian side could and would have curbed some of their excitement and excess enthusiasm. I have a lot of respect for Dr. Zarif but as I know he knows, this problem is much deeper that could be resolved by a détente. In my opinion US strategic position in ME vis a vie Iran cannot not be balanced by only ceasing hostilities with Iran, she would need to expect more from Iran which Iran can’t deliver without undermining her own security.

    از این حرف ها زیاد خواهیم شنید. به محکم ترین شکل هم جواب خواهیم داد. مهم آن است که بدانیم مسیر دشواری شروع شده است. این مسیر یک نبرد دیپلماتیک است و نه یک رابطه دوستانه و صمیمی. امر برای هیچکس در دولت مشتبه نشده است.

    In reply to Mr. Obama today that still all options are on the table, Mr. Zarif wrote: we have heard a lot of this kind of talks, we will reply in a strongest way, is important to know we have a hard road ahead this is road for a diplomatic battle and not for a friendly and sincere relationship.

    See more at: http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13920709001143#sthash.iYGSVnC0.dpuf

  117. Smith says:

    fyi,

    Look at the comment section of BBC story (as you predicted already people are realizing that there will be no deal with US): http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2013/10/131001_l10_netanyahu_unga_2013.shtml

  118. Rd. says:

    fyi says:

    “I think – per your point – the existence of this strategic disparity gives a false sense of preponderance to the Axis Powers – that they can leverage this superiority into inevitability.”

    That has certainly been the case for recent decades. The question is, has today’s reality forced a change in their presumed superiority?

    The fact is, Feltman went to Tehran. All positive signs been ringing, including obama call. And all this after Kissinger visit to the house for whatever reason. It seems the russian sting is a bit too painful to that presumed superiority? So to what extend US is willing to play, in order to bring back the ruskies?

    We know the russian and Turks in general, just like that small minority of Iranians who think they are more farangi than the frangies (westerner). So if this is the play by US to try and get the russian back into the fold, then is there enough room for Iran to make some gains?

    I think perhaps, you are too adamant in your zero sum evaluation. Last century we saw Iran play the tsars against the brits to keep the country alive, given its weak position. Today, once again, we are in the midst of play amongst the more powerful. However, there is the energy card as well the defensive capability which can make any miss-adventures into Iranian sphere very painful (Lebanon 06). As you agreed, Iran is not in the same playing level with US, so IRI has to play with a different mind set.

    Ay. Khamenei “A wrestler may exercise flexibility for a tactical reason but he won’t forget who his rival is and what his goal is,”

    “a false sense of preponderance to the Axis Powers “ If there is flexibility, wouldn’t this also be an opportunity to trip the opponent. To presume, there is nothing to gain and just sit back does not sound prudent, do you not agree?

  119. Smith says:

    From a commentor on BBC Farsi: http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2013/10/131001_me_iran_us_relationship_new_developments.shtml

    “It is now too late. Mullahs got it too late that their enemy US no more exists. [Now] US means a collection of lobbies: weapon lobby, oil lobby, pharma lobby but most powerful of all the Israeli lobby. American politicians are the employees of these lobbies. They (mullahs), should have taught about [current situation] when they were saying, they will not be able to sanction Iran’s oil.”

    As this comment shows, when BBC Farsi readers/commentors reach such conclusions, it means that Iran has already check mated US. There will no deal. Obama can not even get its government budget through congress, let alone lift the Iran sanctions. It will take decades for security council sanctions to be removed, as UN is extremely slow in such matters. Iranian people are opening their eyes and see what US is really after all. And soon Iran will leave NPT and become a nuclear weapon state.

  120. kooshy says:

    Unknown Unknowns says:
    October 1, 2013 at 11:36 am

    Ba Eradat-e-hamishegi, be UU

    Body of that Zaman article had a lot of (Smithy and company’s style) frictional, unproven professed allegations, which is only worth to be printed in this kind of (Rozi-nameh).

    The Usual hasbara style of take one, up,up,up ( if possible with watermelons under both arms) and while you are enjoying views and all the pleasantries, they drop you down on the hard earth (ba panbeh sar boreedan).

  121. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Probably the single biggest element in what brought about Hitler’s rise to pwer in Germany in 1933 was the Germany hyperinflation after the First World War, which destroyed the savings and investments of the upper and (upper-)middle classes.

  122. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Surely Cordesman is wrong to argue Israel should strengthen its nuclear strike capability.

  123. Rd. says:

    Unknown Unknowns says:

    “Kooshy-san: sure, but that’s why I said that *some* of the article made a lot of sense. There was a post from one of the highly informed commenters at MoA saying that the article was printed in a magazine which is Turkish with Israel-friendly leanings. “

    Today’s Zaman generally portrays Gullen movement ideals.. and Gullen is believed to be friendly with that not so central and no so intelligent agency which may be partially shut down as of now!!!!!!

  124. Rd. says:

    Smith says:

    “ There will no deal. Obama can not even get its government budget through congress, “

    Time will tell, however, one has to “wonder” if this shutdown is simply a power play by the establishment, both republicans and democrats. The establishment simply can not afford a few rowdy tea or whatever to spoil the establishments party. We have to see the mid-term if the tea party gets a bloody nose, then we’ll know why. To early to draw a conclusion.

  125. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says: October 1, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    “Probably the single biggest element in what brought about Hitler’s rise to pwer in Germany in 1933 was the Germany hyperinflation after the First World War, which destroyed the savings and investments of the upper and (upper-)middle classes.”

    = = =
    Quite so quite so, Mr. Canning.
    After all, who cares about a bunch of lower-class children starving to death when the bank accounts of the upper class are impaired.

  126. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says: October 1, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    PS
    and it follows logically that Hitler and his upper class fraternity brothers organized into the equivalent of FDR’s Centurions to protest this insult to their wealth-preserving perquisites.

  127. paul says:

    Canning, I believe the single most important contributor to the rise of the Third Reich was suppression of the left in Germany, a policy that the German establishment was commited to going back to Bismark. A society where the left is oppressed will drift steadily to the right. Put differently: society that eschews compassion will eventually come to know only cruelty.

    Omg, empire denialists are loose in this discussion. Sheesh. They never give up.

    Re. Obama’s intentions: several times before he has pretended to ‘extend the hand of friendship’ to Iran. I would say it happens when he feels he needs to polish his bona fides with the progressive movement a bit. In this case, Obama is like the cat who jumped at a bird, and, having missed, and fallen to the ground, sits there grooming itself, and yawning, as if to say “I meant to do that.” Obama sought a war. He was forced into some semblance of diplomacy. Now he’s pretending that he meant to do that all along. We need to do everything we can to make it impossible for him to walk it back towards war. We can be sure that he will attempt to do this. In fact, he and Kerry have already done quite a bit of that.

  128. Fiorangela says:

    paul @ 4:00 pm

    “suppression of the left in Germany, a policy that the German establishment was commited to going back to Bismark.”

    = = =

    Was Bolshevism alive and well in Bismark’s day?

  129. fyi says:

    Rd. says:

    October 1, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    Last century, Iran was defeated 4 times:

    In WWI she was invaded.

    In WWII she was invaded

    In 1953 her government was overtown after a prolonged economic siege war

    In 1988 she she failed to reach her war aim against Iraq.

    The desire to play one side against the other stems no just from historical weakness but from a middle-man mentality.

    It is unsustainable.

    Iranians have to learn to rely one their own capabilities.

    I might be too pessimistic as you state.

    But I am not seeing any change in US position.

    Dr. Cordesman, implicitly, is pointing out the high costs of current US position.

    But no one listens to him either.

    Time with tell but US and Mr. Obama cannot deliver much.

    US might be able to get EU to do something; a big if.

  130. fyi says:

    Rd. says:

    October 1, 2013 at 3:41 pm

    Ask him a simple question:

    “What does freedom of expression mean/imply/entail in a Muslim polity?”

    Ask him a harder question:

    “What does freedom of religion mean/imply/entail in a Muslim polity with respect to the Shia?

    Ask him still a harder question:

    “What does freedom of religion mean/imply/entail in a Muslim polity with respect to Baha’ai, Babi, Druze, Yazidi, Alevi/Alewi, and Ahmadi?”

  131. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 1, 2013 at 4:22 pm

    Ah.

    There is no one who can answer you in today’s Iran or for that matter Islamic lands.

    May be 1000 years ago. I do not see much hope in future too.

    People like Farabi who used to translate the books and ideas of atheists, Christians and Jews are long dead. When you do not have Farabi then how can you get Avicenna who had to read Farabi to become Avicenna.

    They are just a bunch of liars left. They can only hurl tohmat left and right. They only can torture little kids and rape them. That is what they are good for.

  132. Smith says:

    Rd. says:
    October 1, 2013 at 3:46 pm

    Maybe. Anything can be expected of evil umbrella corporation.

    But, I personally believe it is the state of degeneracy of United States that we are watching. It is now beyond politics, parties and philosophies. When a society as a whole becomes degenerate, then a party, a leader and a writer can not change it. It will come down eventually.

  133. Ataune says:

    @fyi

    Let me ask you a couple of questions,

    You are considering one of the pillars the Iranian state was built on, her islamic nature, as a complete failure;

    You are considering one of the defining historical events of the last 35 years, the one that made the character of several generations of Iranian as a defeat, therefore a failure for the sate;

    You are questioning the moral authority of the institution bringing legitimacy to the state in Iran as failed;

    You are forcefully recomending a change in one of the main strategic policy of the state, her position on the WMD issue, and you firmly think that the current one will bring destruction to Iran;

    You consider the intellectual and moral foundation of the Anglo-american states as healthy and sound.

    Then,

    What is the real meaning of the opposition between “axis of resistance” and “axis power” if one of them is morally failed, or even both ?

    How can you be so sure that such a “failed state” on top of the Iranian plateau – even with the nuclear deterrence – will bring a generational victory against her adversaries ?

  134. Rd. says:

    fyi says:

    “In 1988 she she failed to reach her war aim against Iraq.”

    understood that IRI paid a terrible price for that ‘imposed’ war. And the law of nature demands a gain for every loss. In that, I think it is generally accepted that continuation of the war past peace offer, destroyed saddam’s will for future attack. Further, I add, the resolve and (eeman) displayed during the sacred defense left an undeniable impression on US/west, Iranians will defend their revolution. That fact is still resonating, given no direct military challenge to IRI. Would it be fair/accurate to just focus the war aims as the one and only measure?

    If we are to focus on only a one bit, how is the country to progress?

  135. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Julian Lindley-French thinks Obama has been “speaking softly”?

  136. kooshy says:

    Rd. says:
    October 1, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    The Iran Iraq war was an imposed war, it aims were to halt the Islamic revolution expanding to other western or eastern aligned Muslim states, and to reverse the Iranian Islamic revolution, one would be defeated in a war when one doesn’t reach his goals, the countries that instigated and imposed that war lost all their goals, today there is no question about that, first as a result of that war Iran’s Islamic revolution for independence was not reversed and survived and still is going even stronger politically, economically, and militarily to the point that today Iran is the strongest most stable country in the entire region including US protected Israel. second the aim of halting the spread and idea of an Islamic revolution(awakening) was delayed but as is obvious was not dead, so is safe to say that the US/Arab nationalism/Western Europe were defeated in their main aims by imposing the war on Iran.

    On the other hand let see what would and should be the aims for a country like Iran defending herself against an imposed war by a large coalition of wealthy powerful enemies, first and foremost total territorial integrity, checked completely achieved, second protect her revolution and her independence, again totally achieved, third to reduce aggressor’s possibility for future aggression with or without using proxies, achieved checked, Iran is much more stronger after the war. Now our hasbara brothers here would want you to think Iran lost the war, because she was not able, or did not hold to any Iraqi territory or because Iran didn’t WMD on Iraq, or if Iran wasn’t somehow repaid and was not compensated for her loses, to spread and make believe (sar shkasegi) that Iran was defeat they set the goal post where they want not what and where Iran’s aims were. These guys very well know what Iran’s aims were and what she achieved, on the other hand, by now everyone here knows their aim is not an intelligent analysis, but their aim rather is to spread their defeated hasbara ideas.

  137. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Soialists (SPD) in Germany were growing in power but did not support revolution. (Prior to the firing of Bismarck)

  138. James Canning says:

    kooshy,

    Saddam Hussein apparently had hopes of annexing part of Khuzestan. He thought Arabs in K would back the invasion of Iran.

  139. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Why do you say Persia was “defeated” in the First World War? Or the Second? Iran was not a belligerent.

  140. fyi says:

    Ataune says:

    October 1, 2013 at 5:08 pm

    I am not opposed to the Islamic Foundations of the Islamic Republic of Iran; for 2 reasons: 1. It was freely approved by the Iranian people. 2. No Muslim polity can be secular in the sense of the Axis Powers or East Asian states.

    I have demonstrated that the so-called Islamic Establishemnt in Iran, in fact, is not sufficiently Islamic.

    If the state is Islamic, that means its principles are those of Islam.

    I should think one principle of Islam is that a Muslim would be safe in his person, in his property, and in his namus against the depredations of the state.

    Unfortunately, that does not obtain in Iran – it does in the West to a much greater extent – in my opinion.

    This is a challenge for all those who wrap themselves in the flag of Islam and Imam Ali.

    Institutions do not have Moral Authority – human beings do.

    In fact, under both the late Mr. Khomeini and Mr. Khamenei, the Office of Supreme Jurisprudent has kept the constitutional process in tact in Iran – longer than any other Muslim state to date.

    As for Iran-Iraq War – you have to understand that in War, there is no substitute for Victory. The war aims of Iran was destruction of the Ba’ath state – which she failed to realize.

    As for nuclear weapons: I am stateing my opinion.

    This fact has to be faced squarely – 100,000 Iranian soldiers died in Iraqi gas attacks.

    Perhaps it is too late to leave NPT, but it is not too late to have all elements of a nuclear weapon at hand.

    As for qualitative differences: Axis Powers have left God behind but all their Human Rights and Liberty crucially depend on the Revelations of Jesus. They are eating off their legacy while scoffing at religion.

    That will come to and end as they decay until there is a form of Restoration in these states.

    That is the qualitative difference.

    But, again, Man is in the State of Fall and none of these state formations or civilizations are worth anything except survival tools.

    Machines, in other words, used for taking care of people from the time that they are born until they are dead and beyond.

    They are not Paradise on Earth and will never be.

    And this is again where the Islamic Establishment – indeed very many religious people fail to understand.

    Men are in Exile from Paradise; no amount of beating human beings on the head is going to make any human society become Paradise.

    Only the Grace (Fayz) of God could – and He is evidently not forthcoming with it.

    I never stated that Islamic Iran was a failed state, only that it could be better. Abd it is still better than any thing that the Axis Powers or Russians or Indians or Chinese could ever bring about in on the Iranian Plateau.

    After all, Americans and the Englsih before them were in Iran for more than 80 years and you saw what they created and what they destroyed.

    Longest journey starts from belief in oneself.

  141. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    The effective default of the German gov’t on its loans from the German people, did more to bring about the conditions allowing Hitler to come to pwoer, than any other factor.

  142. fyi says:

    Ataune says:

    October 1, 2013 at 5:08 pm

    I forgot to answer you on this question:

    “What is the real meaning of the opposition between “axis of resistance” and “axis power”…”

    The real meaning is that Men are in the State of Fall, fighting over garbage and rubbish and all the time refusing to heed God’s call.

  143. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 1, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    Because she could not safe-guard her borders and soverignity – her neutrality could not be enforced by the Iranian state.

    Weak will get trampled.

  144. fyi says:

    Rd. says:

    October 1, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    There were two strategic achievements – if war can ever be thought to be a worthy undertaking – that came out of Iran-Iraq War:

    1. Repulsion of the invaders to international norders
    2. The demonstration that any future war with Iran will be long and bloody – there is deterrence value in that.

  145. kooshy says:

    At the end of the day with all honesty and prayers I am hoping Bibijon will defeat my pessimistic reservations
    Enshahallah

  146. James Canning says:

    “The intermarriage rate, a bellwether statistic, has reached a high of 58 percent for all [American] Jews and 71 percent for non-Orthodox Jews”.
    New York Times today (Pew survey of American Jews)

  147. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Iran flirted with the Germans, but allowing Germany to crush the USSR might not have been a good idea? (Had Iran been able to block American supplies from reaching the Soviets)

  148. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 1, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    It was not our war – I wish the Europeans had had the courtesy of destroying themselves and thus leave us alone.

    The demise of Germany, UK, France, USSR would have been a great thing for Iran.

  149. kooshy says:

    FYI I am impressed, good, god you just acknowledged two of Iran’s main goals on Iraq war that was completely achieved, which in fact, was part of the 3 achievement points I made earlier in reply to Rd. A good start fyi joon we will work on this to fix your mentality further away from spreading an unjust an unreal defeatism propaganda you are trying to do here.

  150. kooshy says:

    FYI out the three defense aims I listed in my earlier reply to Rd you left out Iran’s protection and savers of her independence and her revolution which clearly was aimed to be destroyed by her opponents do you agree that was Aldo achived completely. On the other hand Iran strategically was not able and did not aim and didn’t want to unseat a Sunni Arab nationalist decorator, Iranian planers would have thought with who and what support to what level, an impossible wish without big powers support, that is a goal post you set it was not an strategic goal of Iran.
    Don’t try to get points on war time propaganda, Saddam was going to have his next lunch in Tehran that was war time propaganda a syop, should we just declare an strategic defeat just because he said foolish thing like? Of course not he lost the war not the propaganda.

  151. James Canning says:

    “Only 17 percent [of American Jews] think that the continued building of [illegal]settlements in the West Bank is helpful to Israel’s security.”
    Pew survey, in Oct 1 NYT

  152. masoud says:

    Javad Zarif interview on ABC
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcrUJZ5JBCs

    Zarif as the public face of Iran’s foreign policy is the only good outcome of Rouhani’s government.

  153. fyi says:

    All:

    Kol Nidre Evening
    A few minutes before the Kol Nidre service was scheduled to begin, the congregation was sitting attentively awaiting the beginning of the service.

    Suddenly, the Malchamuvis (i.e., Satan) appeared at the front of the congregation.

    Everyone started screaming and running for the exit, trampling each other in a frantic effort to get away from evil incarnate.

    Soon the shul was empty except for one elderly gentleman who sat calmly, seemingly oblivious to the fact that God’s ultimate enemy was in his presence.

    So Satan walked up to the man and said, “Do you know who I am ?”

    In true yiddish form the man replied, “Do you know who I am ?”

    “Aren’t you afraid of me ?” Satan asked.

    “Hapsolutely not” said the man.

    “Don’t you realize I can kill you without a word ?” asked Satan.

    “Be my guest” replied the old man, in an even tone.

    “Don’t you know that I can cause you profound horrifying agony for all eternity?” persisted Satan.

    “Ein kleinikit” (big deal) was the man’s calm reply.

    “And you are still not afraid ?” asked Satan.

    “A nechtagine tugh” (no way!) said the old man.

    More than a little perturbed, Satan asked, “Why is it you’re not afraid of me?”

    “Because” the man calmly replied, “I’ve been married to your sister for 62 years!”

  154. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    kooshy-jan,

    In the end we even got rid of Saddam- by playing the Americans- and Iraq is in the hands of those gentlemen (some of which are not so “gentle”)- Shia, Sunni, Christian, Arab, Kurd, Turkmen, Assyrian- who were fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with us during the war against the Baathis.

    Many of them have Iranian parents, grandparents and great-grandparents.

    Saddam is shitting in his grave. It is also one of the reasons the shitty ale Saud is freaking out.

    A clear victory for “Persia”.

    The reality is that the border between what is today Iran and Iraq was/is extremely fluid. If it ceased to exist tomorrow, it would be to the benefit of both populations on either side.

    In southern Iraq “Arab”-“Ajam” are relative as most are a mix in some way and everybody tries to get a Sayyid as damad so the grand-kids become Sayyids.

  155. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    masoud-jan,

    I think SL is wise in letting things take their course. If we can get a deal within the red lines he has clearly stated- good. If we can’t we will be the moral victor in this affair and domestically nobody can accuse him/us of not trying.

    BTW, eslah talabha are already talking about Zarif as their next Presidential candidate. Just to brighten your day…

  156. BiBiJon says:

    Today’s NY Times front page did not headline Netanyau’s “diatribe” at the UN. The story was relegated to page 4.

    “Diatribe” is how Maggie Warner described Bibi’s UN speech last night on PBS newshour.

  157. BiBiJon says:

    On the “diatribe”, don’t miss the urbane ambassador’s take
    =================================================

    http://www.lobelog.com/barking-up-the-wrong-tree/

  158. Karl.. says:

    Whats important now is that the opening US/Iran proceeds and dont simply end. Also Iran should ignore those israeli provocations, like the netanyahu speech yesterday, chumps like netanyahu shouldnt be adressed because netanyahu works like a internet troll, if no one cares, he will loose influence over the debate.

  159. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says: October 1, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    it would be interesting to know if more Jewish men marry non-Jewish women, or if more Jewish women marry non-Jewish men.

  160. Rehmat says:

    Interestingly, when Netanyahu at the UNGA cited North Korean example as a warning of what happens if the West is not keeping military option on the table against the nations which are pursuing for nuclear capability – the North Korean envoy, Sin Son-ho, could not take Netanyahu’s whining anymore. He stood up and told Netanyahu: “Israel is a cancer in the Middle East. It’s disturbing the peace and security, shifting blame to all other countries in the region“.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/10/02/n-korea-to-netanyahu-israel-is-a-cancer/

  161. Rd. says:

    fyi says:
    October 1, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    “US and Mr. Obama cannot deliver much “

    You also have to ask, What are the impacts of such openings between US and IRI through out the region, if this is to play out over the many months ahead? Do you not think there maybe the ‘potential’ to influence some changes in the behavior of some of the regional antagonist? So once again, to just presume this is waste of breath to talk to US because we know they have only one thing in mind, so lets close the door, does not seem prudent.

    Furthermore, taliban were partially the creation of US(?), and US destroyed them. Now, lets think back to Ay. Khamenei’s prudence at the time Iranian diplomats murdered by taliban. The obvious narrative back then would have argued to declare war on taliban. Can you begin to imagine the consequences of that? It could have been justified too….

    Saddam, his aggression, WMD, the war intelligence support where all provided by US(among others), he too was destroyed by US. Is there no lessons in this? [my lesson may be different than yours] Could we not see the day that perhaps US could come to see the saud, or at least ‘some’ factions of it, as the disease that they are and decide to pull the plug? To presume IRI should play the complete antagonist to US (think soviet vs US), does that sound logical?

    It seems “Heroic flexibility” has its justifications. Where is it that you see the problem?

  162. Karl.. says:

    For those farsi speaking people here..

    Was netanyahu prononcing Rouhani’s name correct as in farsi?
    Hes saying like Rou-k-hanee.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCtC_uGg3rk

  163. BiBiJon says:

    Rd. says:
    October 2, 2013 at 9:40 am

    Yes. Some are happy to lament the debilitating dogma afflicting the US, but try and impose ‘incontrovertible truths’ on Iran.

    Karl.. says:
    October 2, 2013 at 9:48 am

    I wonder which k-hotel Netinyahu is staying in, and if there will ever be a time k-he will be re-k-habilitated back into k-humanity.

  164. kooshy says:

    No kidding!

    Tapping Iran’s oil and gas vital for world demand, say Shell and Total
    “Lifting sanctions and opening up Iran’s vast oil and gas resources to global companies will be vital to meeting the world’s future energy needs,
    according to the chief executives of two of Europe’s top oil companies.”

    “Peter Voser, chief executive of Royal Dutch Shell, and Christophe de Margerie, his counterpart at France’s Total, used the Oil & Money conference in London on Tuesday to highlight the potential energy windfall if sanctions preventing international oil companies from dealing with Tehran were lifted.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/10346973/Tapping-Irans-oil-and-gas-vital-for-world-demand-say-Shell-and-Total.html

  165. fyi says:

    Rd. says:

    October 2, 2013 at 9:40 am

    I do not think speaking with US is foolish; I think Iranian leaders should have initiated that long time ago.

    I just do not believe that these talks will produce results commensurate with the hopes vested in them.

    I still think what I outlined inprevious thread; but US is not ready for that.

    US will not do anything against Saudi Arabia – they have no alternative there to Al Saud.

  166. fyi says:

    Karl.. says:

    October 2, 2013 at 9:48 am

    The pronounciation was incorrect.

    I never understood why Israelis have so much trouble with this; modern Hebrew is filled with sounds like ‘h’ and ‘kh’ (the way “Grolsh” is pronounced in Dutch).

    And then they are surrounded by Arabs, one would have thought that they could learn to pronounce Arabic correctly.

  167. Karl.. says:

    fyi / Bibijohn

    Thanks, yeah it sounded real strange.

  168. Karl.. says:

    kooshy

    Great news, oil lobby is in for lifting sanctions.

  169. fyi says:

    kooshy says:

    October 2, 2013 at 10:13 am

    This is true and the projections are for increased demand starting in 2014 and continuing.

    That is another reason that Axis Powers are anxious to get a deal with Iran in 2013.

    Americans played smoke-and-mirrors with the Shale Oil development for a while but evidently there is not enough real and tangible oil on the market.

    I still think that Iran should discard the long-term contracts and just sell oil on the spot market.

    Across the board, Iran has been treated shabbily for decades.

  170. nico says:

    fyi says:
    October 2, 2013 at 10:29 am

    “US will not do anything against Saudi Arabia – they have no alternative there to Al Saud.”

    The question could be also what the KSA alternatives have to the US ? Iran ? China ? Russia ?

    As for the petrodollar, the KSA is stuck in it with their holding in western banks.
    The USD is a house of cards. China, Sheikdoms, Russia and just everybody else is just sitting on the top of it.
    Nobody has interest in the USD brutal and uncoordinated collapse, it is would catastrophic. That is why it is holding ground so far, there is no other reason.
    Should KSA make a wrong move regarding this subject nobody would be happy.

  171. nico says:

    Or the KSA just needs to tell the US military to leave…
    Sure nobody will want to loot KSA and the US will oblige…

  172. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Good question (whether American Jews who marry non-Jews are more likely to be male, or female). Rate of intermarriage is up four times in past 45 years. From 17% to 71 percent. (Non-Orthodox)

  173. James Canning says:

    New York Times editorial today says “it could be disastrous” if Netanyahu and his pals in US Congress block Obama’s effort to improve relations with Iran.

  174. Richard Steven Hack says:

    Russia warns of more gas use by Syria militants
    http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/09/30/326859/militants-may-gas-syria-again-russia/

  175. Karl.. says:

    Any truth to the assassination story? If, it shows what a complete nuthouse Israel really is.

  176. masoud says:

    Oh and yeah, an this:
    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/09/28/326578/us-returns-ancient-chalice-to-iran/

    Like patting good little boy on the head and rewarding him with a delicious ab-nabat.

    You know what happens when you get in the habit of taking candies from strangers, right?

  177. Unknown Unknowns says:

    Demand might or might not be rising, but supply has definitely fallen off. Here’s William Engdahl’s opening paragraph in his new article posted at voltairnet.org.

    Libya’s economy is dependent on oil. Just after the war, Western media hailed the fact the oil installations were not damaged by the population bombing and oil production was near normal at 1.4 million barrels/day (bpd). Then in July the armed guards hired by the government in Tripoli suddenly revolted and seized control of the eastern oil field terminals they were supposed to protect. There is where the vast bulk of Libya’s oil is produced, near Benghazi. It goes by pipeline to tankers on the Mediterranean for export.

    When the government lost control of the terminals production and export fell sharply. Then another armed tribal group seized control of two oilfields in the south blocking oil flow to terminals on the northwest coast. The tribal occupiers demanded more pay and went on strike to demand pay and an end to corruption. The end result is today, early September Libya pumped a mere 150,000 barrels of its capacity of 1.6 million bpd. Exports have fallen to 80,000 barrels per day.

  178. Kathleen says:

    Hey one MSM outlet actually whispers about the Iranian President asking Israel to join the rest of the nations including Iran who signed the NPT quite some time ago.

  179. BiBiJon says:

    Robert Parry gets it wrong on how wrong NY Times editorial is
    =============================================================

    “The U.S. news media’s bias in favor of Israel and against Israel’s enemies represents a journalistic failure to honestly inform the American people about issues that can lead to war. A glaring example is the double standard applied to Israel’s rogue nuclear arsenal.”

    http://consortiumnews.com/2013/10/02/nytimes-again-ignores-israels-nukes/

    Obama said at the press conference: “I do believe that there is a basis for resolution. Iran’s supreme leader has issued a fatwa against the development of nuclear weapons. President Rouhani has indicated that Iran will never develop nuclear weapons. I’ve made clear that we respect the right of the Iranian people to access peaceful nuclear energy in the context of Iran meeting its obligations. … Resolving this issue, obviously, could also serve as a major step forward in a new relationship between the United States and the Islamic Republic of Iran, one based on mutual interest and mutual respect.”

    NY Times failed to mention how Netanyakhu’s speech at the UN went 180 degrees counter to Obama’s stated diplomatic objective. He was not just lying and insulting Iran, the 73% of the electorate who voted in the recent elections, or the person of President Rouhani. Netanyahu unzipped himself and urinated all over Obama, as he has become accustomed to doing pretty much whenever he gets the slightest urge.

    On a matter as important as US relations with Iran, with profound consequences for the region and the world, NY Times takes the side of the premier of a foreign country.

    Don’t get me wrong. NYT’s editorial page can always choose to go against a Democratic US president’s policy. But, they can do that without championing a foreign leader’s diatribe specifically timed and delivered to a world audience to belittle the president of the US. It ain’t his disdain of Rouhani that is ‘news’ fit to print, it is Netanyahu’s abiding contempt for Obama.

    And, guess who he has appointed as the new Amb. to US?

  180. Karl.. says:

    Ignore the headline, same threats and same stance by the US, “Iran must..”.

    http://presstv.com/detail/2013/10/03/327337/us-rebuffs-israels-pressure-over-iran/

  181. BiBiJon says:

    Do you remember, do you recall? Do you have memory of anything at all?
    =================================================================

    From http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/columnist/mediamix/2003-09-14-media-mix_x.htm

    CNN’s top war correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, says that the press muzzled itself during the Iraq war. And, she says CNN “was intimidated” by the Bush administration and Fox News, which “put a climate of fear and self-censorship.”

    ————–

    MSM is already showing signs of being ‘intimidated’ by Israel-firsters into, not just “self-censorship,” but into printing absolute falsehoods about the possibility, and desirability of US-Iran detente.

    However, this being as predictable as sunrise, one hopes Obama, and Rouhani have solid plans to remain one step ahead of the game.

  182. Dan Cooper says:

    In an interview with Charlie Rose, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is lying about Iran again.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50156349n

    Iran talks about peace, friendship and reconciliation but the psychopath Netanyahu repeatedly talks about war and destructions.

    In order to brainwash the international community, this psychopath consistently fabricate stories about Iran. How sick and low can you get?

  183. Don Bacon says:

    Many observers of the US-Iran cold war are being distracted by phone calls and such, and by the peculiar personalities of Israel’s prime minister and the U.S.’s president, and so they are doomed to get wrapped around the axle of real events which mainly are controlled by the U.S. Congress and not by the personalities who are in the “news.”

    Here’s the best description I’ve seen, in the National Interest.
    “Obama’s freedom of maneuver vis-a-vis Tehran is highly circumscribed by existing Congressional mandates. Unlike his predecessor Bill Clinton, who, in the course of normalizing relations with Vietnam during the 1990s, was able to use his executive authority to lift sanctions and rescind other restrictions against Hanoi, Obama can take no such steps if President Hassan Rouhani is prepared to make significant gestures to alleviate the international community’s concerns about Iran’s nuclear program. Even when it comes to permitting other allies and partners to respond positively to any Iranian overtures—for instance by allowing countries to increase their purchases of Iranian oil—Obama’s hands are tied by legislation that requires him to pressure other countries continuing to do business with Tehran.

    “Rouhani’s entire diplomatic outreach to the West—one which is not supported by the more radical factions within the Iranian regime—is predicated on the assumption that a more accommodating Iran could obtain relief from the punishing sanctions which have done real damage to the Iranian economy. But Obama will need Congress to roll back or suspend some of its provisions should he choose to respond. But as with the continuing resolution, opponents of the president will not have to do anything to derail engagement. Simply by doing nothing, Congressional skeptics of Rouhani’s good faith can prevent Obama from being able to offer reciprocity. If, as some experts have concluded, Iran’s new president only has a temporary window in which he can pursue diplomacy—before hardliners around the Supreme Leader conclude that such efforts are fruitless—a possible “reset” with Iran could wither on the vine of Congressional inaction.”

    But wait — there’s more — H.R. 850.

    July 31, 2013 — House passed the Nuclear Iran Prevention Act of 2013 (H.R. 850) — H.R. 850 is intended to impose additional human rights and economic and financial sanctions on Iran. This legislation strengthens existing sanctions by compelling countries to reduce their combined purchases of crude oil by 1,000,000 barrels [per day — Iran’s current production]. In addition, it continues to put an economic squeeze on foreign financial institutions, corporations, and individuals who make large economic exchanges with the Iranian government. Moreover, it places further sanctions on Iranian industry and further limits Iran’s ability to engage in international commerce while preventing Tehran from accessing overseas foreign currency reserves. The bill is broken into three major sections.

    Aug 5, 2013 — Seventy-Six Senators Urge Obama to Renew Urgency on Iranian Nuclear Program — Letter to the President endorses tougher sanctions and a credible military threat to accompany dialogue with Iran; authored by Senators Menendez, Graham, Casey, Blunt, Kaine and Ayotte — signers included: Senators Markey, Franken and Warren.
    –renewed sense of urgency
    –time for diplomacy nearing its end
    –demand immediate serious moves on Iran’s part
    –suspend enrichment
    –cease installing centrifuges
    –agree to remove 20% enriched uranium
    –cease work on heavy water reactor in Arak

    Oct 1, 2013 — Iran sanctions in U.S. Senate delayed before Geneva talks — (Reuters) – Under pressure not to squeeze Iran too hard, the U.S. Senate is unlikely to impose a fresh round of sanctions on the Islamic Republic until after Tehran holds nuclear talks with world powers later this month, lawmakers and congressional aides said. The Senate Banking Committee had been due in September to look at a new package of sanctions passed in July by the House of Representatives, but now it will not do so for at least a few more weeks, an aide said.

  184. fyi says:

    Don Bacon says:

    October 3, 2013 at 10:29 am

    I think if Iranians sell all of their oil on the Spot Market to the middle-men, then everyone could live with that.

    No country would then be directly importing Iranian oil – and the letter of the legislation will be met.

    I think that is where things are going, but I am not sure how quickly will Iran get there.

  185. Don Bacon says:

    In the Good News Department:

    Oct 2, 2013
    Government Shutdown Empties Offices Enforcing Sanctions on Iran
    The shutdown has forced the Treasury Department to furlough most of the employees enforcing sanctions on Iran, just as the U.S. is beginning new negotiations. Josh Rogin and Eli Lake report on the potential fallout.

    The Treasury Department has furloughed approximately 90 percent of the employees in its Office of Terrorist Financing and Intelligence (TFI), which is responsible for the monitoring of illicit activities and enforcement of sanctions related to several countries, including Iran, Syria, and North Korea, Treasury officials told The Daily Beast. The drastic scaling down of personnel working on those activities comes just as the Obama administration is engaging in its first set of diplomatic negotiations with the new Iranian government, led by President Hassan Rouhani.

    A subsection of TFI, the Office of Foreign Asset Control (OFAC), which implements the U.S. government’s financial sanctions, has been forced to furlough nearly all its staff due to the lapse in congressional funding, said a Treasury Department spokesman.

    “As a result, OFAC is unable to sustain its core functions of: issuing new sanctions designations against those enabling the governments of Iran and Syria as well as terrorist organizations, WMD proliferators, narcotics cartels, and transnational organized crime groups; investigating and penalizing sanctions violations; issuing licenses to authorize humanitarian and other important activities that might otherwise be barred by sanctions; and issuing new sanctions prohibitions and guidance,” the spokesman said. “This massively reduced staffing not only impairs OFAC’s ability to execute its mission, it also undermines TFI’s broader efforts to combat money laundering and illicit finance, protect the integrity of the U.S. financial system, and disrupt the financial underpinnings of our adversaries.”
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/10/02/government-shutdown-empties-offices-enforcing-sanctions-on-iran.html

  186. kooshy says:

    America Mustn’t Be Naïve about Iran
    By VALI NASR
    Published: October 2, 2013

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/03/opinion/america-mustnt-be-naive-about-iran.html?_r=0

    Predictably Vali can and is much more realistic with regard to US/Iran geopolitics then when he was in the administration.
    I believe since Vali left US government he is now a lot less ideological than the rest of the so called Iranian origin Iran analysts, likes of Takyeh, Sajadpoor, Parsi and others.

    I think he believes the only hope is a possible formulation for an end to hostilities, stepping to an understanding for a détente, while mutual trust can be restored.

  187. James Canning says:

    BiBiJon,

    Robert Parry surely was quite right to chastise the New York Times for failing to mention the fact Israel has nukes. (In piece you linked) NYT should be calling for pressure on Israel to get rid of its nukes.

  188. BiBiJon says:

    kooshy says:
    October 3, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    Yonks ago I’d written that the declining trajectory of US influence in the ME will intersect with the rising trajectory of Iran’s. I think Castelio liked that line.

    I could not have put it better than Vali. The two sides are interacting at intersection point where their ‘net’ strengths and weaknesses, and their ‘net’ capacity to hurt one another is equal.

    This equality makes for extremely tough negotiations. Unequals’ bargain is a short effort of issuing a diktat, plus throwing a few scraps for saving face. Equals have a much more delicate dance to perform.

    However, Netanyahu-inc has taken control of the music’s tempo. There’s only time for a fast reconciliation. If this thing drags out beyond November, all bets are off.

  189. BiBiJon says:

    James Canning says:
    October 3, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    Yes he is. But I contend the real story is Netanyahu’s contempt for Obama at full display in a global forum. He all but called Obama an imbecilic dork for praising Iranians’ election of Rouhani, and praising Rouhani’s outreach, and respecting Ay. Khamenei’s fatwa.

    now, read the NY Times editorial and see in how many ways they seem to concur with Netanyahu.

  190. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn
    October 3, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    Thats quite a reverse from this post you made earlier:

    http://goingtotehran.com/after-rohanis-visit-to-new-york-flynt-leverett-on-prospects-for-u-s-iranian-nuclear-diplomacy#comment-20269

    Simply, no deal has been made and netanyahu wasnt irrelevant. :)

  191. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 3, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    What do you think of Netanyahu’s performance? Did he gain credit and respect for his position? Or did he antagonize Obama and Kerry?

  192. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn

    His speech is certainly supported as you yourself admit (” Netanyahu-inc has taken control “), one just need to take a look at the faces of this picture to understand what a cult following netanyahu have.

    http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.549974.1380637668!/image/693970545.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_640/693970545.jpg

  193. James Canning says:

    BiBiJon,

    I agree that Netanyahu’s attitude toward Obama is something many people will notice.

  194. James Canning says:

    Kooshy,

    Russia is Iran’s “chief ally”? (Claim by Vali Nasr in piece you linked.)

    In fact, China has been the country most deeply involved in doing business in Iran thanks to the sanctions that block companies in other countries from operating in Iran.

  195. Smith says:

    France offers nuclear technology to Pakistan: http://tribune.com.pk/story/612657/civil-nuclear-cooperation-french-govt-says-option-can-be-explored-at-request/

    Another benefit of being out of NPT and having nuclear weapons, is the fact that the western world takes you seriously.

  196. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 3, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    EU states are very uncomfortable with a reiligious-based country – except their pet, Israel.

    Across the board, EU states prefer military dictatorship to any representative government type of political order that smells of Islam.

    We all saw what happened in Alegria – “Anything but Islam.”

  197. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 3, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    Dr. Nasr is incorrect in that instance as you have observed.

    Outside of the Shia Crescent, Iran has no allies.

    Her interaction with Russia and China is purley transactional and the nascent strategic understandings with India which were achieved under Mr. Khatami lie in irrepiarable ruin.

    During the last 10 years, Iran’s interaction with the outside world served to reinforce the very very bitter lessons of the Iran-Iraq War.

    A few decades from now, US and EU states may be able to have achieved the transactional relationship that currently obtains between Iran and China.

    But not anytime soon.

  198. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 3, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    Yes. But in the case of Iran, it even goes further. The white man still feels strong urges of rape towards Iran, since they could not colonize and rape Iran as they did in the rest of the planet. These people are sick. And check this out, the boss of west is saying, absolutely no enrichment whatsoever: http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2013/10/131003_l45_netanyahu_bbcpersian_interview.shtml

    As is clear, only pulling out of NPT and acquisiton of nuclear weapons is the viable solution to all these insults and continuous hardships. Once Iran becomes armed with nuclear weapons, these people will come and lick feet of Iranians, begging for forgiveness.

  199. kooshy says:

    James Canning says:
    October 3, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    Gav

    Being familiar with Mr. Nasr’s writings and interviews, I am very sure that he does not view the current Iran-o Russian relationship as anything permanently strategic.
    He and the rest of the world knows that Iran’s Islamic revolution was an anti-hegemonic revolution in its nature a value which has not been changed to date, further- since this same value also it does not allow, and prevents Iran to have hegemonic tendency, it makes it difficult for Iran to have any strategic alliance with any outside power. Therefore, in my opinion only tactical alliances when necessary are possible.
    One should thank god, as a result unlike your country and the rest of Europe, no one can make Iran his puddle any more. Gav. James Iran’s main ally is been and will remain Imam Hussein.

    Vasalam

  200. fyi says:

    kooshy says:

    October 3, 2013 at 4:26 pm

    One must be grateful to Mr. Netanyahu for dclaring war on Imam Hussein:

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.550253

    Netanyahu: Iran’s Khamenei heads a ‘messianic, apocalyptic, radical cult’

  201. Smith says:

    On a lighter note, the US federal government “shut down” has forced closure of the federal offices monitoring and enforcing sanctions on Iran: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/10/02/government-shutdown-empties-offices-enforcing-sanctions-on-iran.html

    Imagine if US goes belly up like Soviet Union, how much freer the world is going to become? It is going to become one big happy blue planet. Let’s keep hopes up for that day.

  202. Smith says:

    Kerry: US talks based on concrete steps by Iran, in other words, Iran should consider talking to US as a divine and holy privilege and should pay for those talks with giving up itself for rape: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/03/us-iran-kerry-idUSBRE99204Z20131003

  203. Karl.. says:

    Smith

    This is getting ridiculous but its not surprising, netanyahu and israel managed to destroy the opening, amazing. So more threats, more sanction more stalling by US just because of this crazy netanyahu..
    Kerry is a horrific diplomat and the weak Hagel..sigh.

    Back to square one?

  204. Smith says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 3, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    “Back to square one?”

    I do not think so. This is going to be the end of it all. You see, Iran is now under the most severe sanctions in history. There will be no deal. With such a high price Iran has paid, there will be only one logical way left for Iran: Leave NPT and become a nuclear weapon state. Things will start to improve from then on. But if Iran does not take that road, things will go down hill even further.

    Iran should have become a nuclear weapon state in 1980’s. The later it is becoming the more painful it is becoming. So, no. The genie is not going back to the bottle again. There will be no back to square one.

  205. Smith says:

    Top US official: ‘Core Iran Sanctions Must Remain for Now and that any diplomatic engagement with Iran will be accompanied by the “vigorous enforcement” of sanctions already in place.’

    http://www.voanews.com/content/kerry-iran-must-prove-sincerity-in-nuclear-program-engagement/1761970.html

    Anyone who still believes a non-nuclear armed Iran can talk as an equal to US?

    Ah, even when Nixon went to China, the Chinese were already a nuclear armed state.

    There are two types of people on earth: 1) The humans who have nuclear weapons and their friends/whores 2) and the Manimals.

  206. Smith says:

    U.S. No ‘Suckers’ When It Comes To Iran Sanctions And Nuclear Negotiations, John Kerry Says

    “The Obama administration said Thursday it would support tougher economic pressure on Iran if the Islamic republic doesn’t begin slowing the pace of its uranium enrichment activity and opening its stockpiles of nuclear material….”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/03/us-iran-suckers_n_4038550.html

  207. Smith says:

    New Sanctions Likely Despite Thaw in U.S.-Iran Ties: http://world.time.com/2013/10/02/new-sanctions-likely-despite-thaw-in-us-iran-ties/

    “U.S. lawmakers from both parties have expressed a willingness to give President Barack Obama’s outreach to Iran a chance to end to Tehran’s nuclear standoff with the West, but at the same time they are crafting tough new U.S. economic sanctions to further isolate the Islamic republic….”

    More sanctions are coming.

  208. Smith says:

    New US talks resemble stick in carrot like skin: http://taghribnews.com/images/docs/000124/n00124236-b.jpg

  209. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 3, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    Don’t be high-fiving with Smith, and fyi too soon.

    Yes, Netanyahu was effective, but effective only at isolating Israel. Rouhani, as you know, met with, Holande, among other heads of state, including Chinese and Russian at the SCO earlier.

    And his telephone conversation with Obama, hailed by Obama as the beginning of a path to normalizing relations, puts Netanyahu in a straightjacket. He sure sounded like he was wearing one at the UNGA. He had been deemed irrelevant, otherwise he would have been consulted privately before the outreach to Iran. Obama is banking on him to sound off uncontrollably to the choir. But, as far as the more important audience is concerned, Obama’s bet that Netanyahu will self-destruct has paid handsomely. The mouse roared, and it was comical.

    I maintain that the broad contours of a grand bargain have already been established vis-a-vis cooperation in Afghanistan, and Iraq; ensuring that the ‘Arab Spring’ does not turn ‘too’ anti-American by virtue of the positive impact of rapprochement with the ‘Islamic’ Republic, and a host of other issues. These agreements are firm. the rest are details, which will be rolled out.

    Netanyhu was demanding that the US Senate schedule a vote to impose additional sanctions on Iran. Rueters reports: “Iran sanctions in U.S. Senate delayed before Geneva talks.” Some effectiveness.

    He will be calling for elections by February, and will not returned to the premiership of Israel. The guy is a detestable loud mouth.

    Iran is slated to be in Geneva in two weeks. According to al-Monitor: “On future negotiations in Geneva, which will take place mid-October, Rouhani said that they will be “determinant” and that at the UNGA it was agreed that in Geneva, “Iran would present its recommendations at the negotiation table.””

    Here’s a prediction: Iran’s recommendation will be hailed as ground breaking, and the rest is too obvious to need predictions.

  210. Smith says:

    Iran’s economic problems have internal solution and there will be no help from US in this regard: http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13920711000676

  211. kooshy says:

    October 3, 2013 at 6:15 pm
    Bibijon

    Nobody talks about it but the fact is Afghanistan is the only landlocked place on the planet the is naturally located on the center of 5 of Asia’s greatest powers all 5 are nuclear capable states 4 are declared nuclear state

    Simply seating there because you think you can impose a balance with thus home based powers is a waste of money and resources. American strategist are just dumb.

  212. Smith says:

    Netanyahu to BBC Persian: “If the Iranian regime gets nukes, the Iranian people will never be freed from tyranny and will live in slavery forever”

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.550436

    He is not alone of course. As there are some people even on this forum who think on the same lines as him. That is all the world should have nuclear weapons but Iran should not.

  213. James Canning says:

    Smith,

    Israel is not “all the world”. And Israel should be pressured to get rid of its nukes.

  214. kooshy says:

    Sorry got cut off on iPhone copying text

    Besides out of all 5 neighbors of Afghanistan
    Historically and Culturally Iran is closest but even more important Iran is the only bordered neighbor that can offer something on credit that Afghanistan needs. So who should US negotiate with and maintain an understating with before it withdraws. Notthev F ing France or Germany they need to reach an understanding with Iran. There is no choice on there.

  215. James Canning says:

    kooshy,

    I agree with you that the US should not keep military bases in Afghanistan.

  216. Smith says:

    Iran should get nuclear weapons and then pressure England to give up its nuclear weapons. It is a perfect target of punishment for Iran’s nukes as part of a MAD to keep peace with the white man. It is a small isolated island.

  217. fyi says:

    Smith says:
    October 3, 2013 at 7:09 pm

    Yes. I agree that Mr. BibiJon leaves in fantasy land.

  218. fyi says:

    Smith says:
    October 3, 2013 at 6:15 pm

    I agree with the assessment in the article you linked.

    Grand Bargain with Iran is now illegal within US Legal codes.

    Temporary suspension of this or that sanction is still possible but not for long as US Congress will eliminate that role.

    By the way, the Prime Minister of that vassal state of US called Japan called on Mr. Rouhani for Iran to be flexible.

    I recall them advising Iran the same way 25 years ago.

    Worthless advise.

  219. BiBiJon says:

    “Leave” My fantasy land alone
    ==========================

    fyi, let me get this right. In your non-fantasy land, Iran thumbs her nose at NAM, prints ‘fatwa’ on door mats, builds a nuke and threatens the UK with microbial annihilation?

    Brilliant!

  220. fyi says:

    All:

    Interview with Dr. Haas:

    http://www.cfr.org/budget-debt-and-deficits/shutdown-weakens-us-foreign-policy/p31534

    We read:

    “If the president is able to … negotiate a nuclear deal with Iran, it’s not obvious to me that he’s in a position to secure Congressional approval of sanctions relaxation.”

  221. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:
    October 3, 2013 at 7:51 pm

    The Shia Crescent is a new independent power in a world crowded with other states as well as international actors jockeying for power.

    Such a power can only maintain her integrity and cohesion via long range nuclear weapons.

    The key event was in 2007 when Axis Powers, Russia, and China could have taken a different tack with Iran after the US NIE on Iran was leaked.

    At that time, just like the case of China, the Axis Powers, Russia, and China could have elected to deal peacefully and amicably with the rise of Shia/Irani power.

    They decided to oppose it.

    That is all.

  222. Dan Cooper says:

    Mojtaba Atabi, an official in the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps who was widely believed to be the head of the organization’s cyberwarfare division, has been shot and killed

    http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/1432525?wp_login_redirect=0

    The death has the hallmarks of an assassination, and many have pointed toward Israeli intelligence service Mossad.

    Atabi’s death is being likened to the killing of five Iranian nuclear scientists since 2007, some of whom were also killed by motorcycle-borne assassins.

    “Eye for an eye”

    Israel leaders only understand the language of force and intimidation.

    It is about time the Iranians reply in kind covertly in any which way they can. “Eye for an eye” as it says in their holly book.

  223. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 3, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    Before you get too giddy with irrevocable sanctions,

    Read http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/12/31/statement-president-hr-1540

    And try and keep quiet.

  224. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 3, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    In particular read this:

    Other provisions in this bill above could interfere with my constitutional foreign affairs powers. Section 1244 requires the President to submit a report to the Congress 60 days prior to sharing any U.S. classified ballistic missile defense information with Russia. Section 1244 further specifies that this report include a detailed description of the classified information to be provided. While my Administration intends to keep the Congress fully informed of the status of U.S. efforts to cooperate with the Russian Federation on ballistic missile defense, my Administration will also interpret and implement section 1244 in a manner that does not interfere with the President’s constitutional authority to conduct foreign affairs and avoids the undue disclosure of sensitive diplomatic communications. Other sections pose similar problems. Sections 1231, 1240, 1241, and 1242 could be read to require the disclosure of sensitive diplomatic communications and national security secrets; and sections 1235, 1242, and 1245 would interfere with my constitutional authority to conduct foreign relations by directing the Executive to take certain positions in negotiations or discussions with foreign governments. Like section 1244, should any application of these provisions conflict with my constitutional authorities, I will treat the provisions as non-binding.

    —-

    NON-BINDING!

  225. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 3, 2013 at 7:29 pm

    Yep, these people are stupid. In their retarded dreams they think that as long as Iran remains neutered and the white man holds thousands of nukes and sits at every cross road controlling the world’s wealth and resources, then peace will prevail. After much deliberation, I have diagnosed them to be house niggers. You see house niggers too used to say the same thing: Do not revolt, Keep peace, Respect the white man, Negotiate with him and accept his demands, then everything will be ok.

    Their views are becoming more and more irrelevant in today’s world.

  226. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 3, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    That is exactly so. US has no intention to give any relief to Iran. US still wants to overthrow IRI. This remains their goal. The sanctions will be toughened up in coming months. They are saying this officially that there will be no relief and that deception is in Iran’s DNA: http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-state-congress-iran-sanctions-20131003,0,1909747.story

    The only way any negotiation is going to be successful is when west negotiates with a nuclear armed Iran about a peace based on balance of power not on stupid dreams of house niggers.

  227. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:
    October 3, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    I believe Dr. Haas knows US Congress better than you.

    I believe you have been consistently wrong in your expectations of break-through; sort of like Mr. Richard Steven Hack and his statements over the years in this forum of an imminent attack by US, Israel, or a combination of them against Iran, Syria, Lebanon etc.

    I also believe in the estimation of others in this regard.

    But I have my own estimation of US leaders; they are too degenerated for serious attempts at diplomacy with Iran – or anyone else – ; certainly a man who has the audacity of criticizing another sovereign state for refusing to subject her children to homosexual propaganda cannot be taken seriously.

  228. Smith says:

    There will be no meaningful sanctions relief as long as Iran remain not armed with nuclear weapons: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/lifting-sanctions-wouldnt-lift-irans-economy-2013-10-03

  229. fyi says:

    Smith says:
    October 3, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    All in good time Mr. Smith.

    I have expressed my opinion as to what it takes for US and Iran to come to a strategic understanding and what that would mean.

    What I am hearing instead is debate about kinds and percentages of U235 etc. which basically means that the discussion is still at the tactical level.

    Well, if Iran can get some tactical relief for adjusting her enrichment levels to he immediate needs, that might be useful to Iran.

    But Grand Bargain is not in the cards.

    Axis Powers, with a billion people, are not ready for it yet.

    I mean that means they have to essentially recognize the power of the “Heathen” – those who believe in God and not in Shoah and cannot care less about the Enlightenment project.

    No, that would not do.

  230. Smith says:

    fyi,

    NAM was instrumental in supporting Saddam against Iran. In fact the famed Iranian martyr pilot Col. Abbas Doran was killed in action crashing his flaming F-4 fighter jet into the lobby of the hotel housing the NAM session in support of Saddam.

    A great Ayatollah outmaneuvered another east India company trying to take over Iran, by issuing a fatwa and then residing which is now known as tobacco protest. He is now recognized as hero and a savior. Fatwas are to serve humanity. Not other way round.

    Why do you think these people can not grasp the idea of nuclear deterrence and the peace that it brings? Do you think these people are pro-war specially a war in which the white man always prevails or that they are retarded? Because I see no other explanation for opposition to a nuclear deterrence which guarantees peace in a world inhabited with white man and his house niggers.

  231. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 3, 2013 at 8:13 pm

    I fully agree.

  232. Rehmat says:

    The western media has given credit for the historic highest-level US-Iran contact to Russian President Vladimir Putin, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani and the war-mongering Grinch Netanyahu. No doubt, all three played their parts on the world-stage but the credit for preparing the groundwork goes to Iran’s Spiritual Leader Ayatullah Ali Khamenei and the former Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

    “Many attribute Iran’s recent “charm offensive” toward the West to the election of President Hassan Rouhani. Upon closer look, it appears that the intrasigent Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the uncompromising Ali Khamenei were in fact the ones who opened the way for the current breakthrough,” wrote Elie Chalhoub at Lebanese daily Al Akhbar, on September 30, 2013.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/10/04/who-broke-the-ice-between-iran-and-us/

  233. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 3, 2013 at 8:07 pm

    “I believe Dr. Haas knows US Congress better than you.”

    And … Hass says they cannot be lifted? He means the legislation. The treasury department reports to the Executive. Nothing under law stops Obama from issuing orders he sees constitutionally fit, and national security-wise necessary.

    He signed the legislation with caveats, chiefly that he is not surrendering his constitutional authority to a bunch of bought and paid for congressmen. Those caveats are law, as they’re attached to his signature. His signature is what turns the piece of legislation into law.

    Please double check with Hass if you don’t regard him as too degenerate. Let me know what he says.

  234. kooshy says:

    Gav

    Here is an eye opener video for when you wake up, or possibly once you find how much respect the rest of world has for her majesty’s freedom of expression, you may wish to go back to bed.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36423.htm

  235. Don Bacon says:

    Wendy Sherman serves as America’s lead negotiator with Iran. Sherman is the Under Secretary for Political Affairs, the Department’s fourth-ranking official.

    Here’s what the U.S. “lead negotiator” has to say about the country she will “negotiate” with.

    –Iran’s nuclear activity – in violation of its international obligations and in defiance of the international community – is one of the greatest global concerns we face.
    –A nuclear-armed Iran would pose a threat to the region, to the world, and to the future of the global nuclear proliferation regime.
    — Iran has consistently concealed its nuclear activities and continues to do so, denying required access and information to the International Atomic Energy Agency.
    — As a result of Iran’s continuing disregard for its international obligations, we have ratcheted up the pressure on the Iranian government.
    — Iran is isolated and sanctions are having a real impact on the ground, exacerbated by the regime’s own mismanagement of its economy.
    — we continue to increase the pressure. Iranian oil exports will continue to decline as we implement the law through our engagement with the last remaining six importers of Iranian oil.
    –Iran is the world’s foremost state sponsor of terrorism.
    –In Syria, Iran has made it clear that it fears losing its closest ally and will stop at no cost, borne by both the Syrian and Iranian people, to prop up the Asad regime.
    — we remain concerned about Iran’s treatment of U.S. citizens detained and missing in Iran.
    –We are equally disturbed by the regime’s ongoing campaign of repression against its own people.
    –In sum, Iranians deserve better.

    That’s true, Sherman. Better than you.

  236. Don Bacon says:

    We suffered through this Obama hopey-changey thing with Iran nearly four years ago.

    First he goes through some “negotiating” phase, trying to get obedience, and then failing that he throws up his hands (figuratively) and says well I tried, but they wouldn’t cooperate with me. They refused to “negotiate” (i.e. surrender). So I have no choice. I must tighten the screws some more. No choice.

    It’s a tiresome script. But actually, as I indicated above, Obama has little choice. The Congress overwhelmingly wants some Persian blood, and the U.S. still has some semblance of democracy after all.

  237. Karl.. says:

    Obviously the wimp obama lack the courage nixon and kissinger had when they reached out to China.

  238. Sineva says:

    fyi says:
    October 3, 2013 at 3:32 pm
    fyi says:
    October 3, 2013 at 3:36 pm
    I agree

  239. Rehmat says:

    On October 1, 2013, right after his racist rant against Rouhani, Benjamin Netanyahu received a slap on his face from the UN Disarmament and International Security Committee (UNDISC). It unanimously appointed Iran as its new rapporteur (senior communication officer) for one year.

    Michael Rubin, a radical Zionist Jew, currently a senior Fellow with Israel lobby group, American Enterprise Institute (AEI), made a sick joke, “I’m just surprised that the UN never got around to hiring Michael Jackson to work in its daycare center“. May be the idiot doesn’t know that Jackson married Jewish Debbie Rowe and produced two kids. Jackson even had Jewish lawyers and accountants and paid them fat salaries.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/10/04/irans-appointment-to-un-first-committee-offends-lobby/

  240. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 3, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    “The Shia Crescent is a new independent power in a world crowded with other states as well as international actors jockeying for power. Such a power can only maintain her integrity and cohesion via long range nuclear weapons.”

    I want to explore this with you.

    “Shi’a crescent”, is an inflammatory sectarian phrase first coined in 2004 by Jordan’s King Abdullah.

    That aside, lets use the wretched term for convenience. Syria is regarded as a keystone in that ‘crescent’. Now, let us say that everything that has transpired in that unfortunate country for the last 3 years, did so while Iran was in possession of nuclear tipped ICBMs, in whatever numbers you fancy.

    Please explain what difference that would make?

  241. Dan Cooper says:

    US waking up to threat of Israel

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/327364.html

  242. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn

    So,..what did you make out of netanyahu’s speech?

  243. Photi says:

    More of Iran’s crimes: Pistachios of Mass Distribution

    https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/resnicks-valley/ab0e777f7dabad2fa357c2b6c4b3e6e8af5d2f2c/

    “But here’s the fun part: the continued economic viability of this piece of Oligarch Valley depends on Iran being kept in a state of a permanent economic blockade.

    It depends on it so much that the Resnicks have joined forces with raving neocons and hardcore right-wingers, funding thinktanks and lobbyists that hype the Iranian threat and push all out war.”

  244. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 4, 2013 at 8:56 am

    “So,..what did you make out of netanyahu’s speech?”

    The same as James A. Russell.

    http://www.lobelog.com/taking-yes-for-an-answer/

  245. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 4, 2013 at 8:32 am

    The Shia Crescent is only inflmatory to enemies of the Shia; “..we are honored to be the Shia of Ali, we are honored to believe in the Sahifeyeh Fatmiyah, …” as the late Mr. Khomeini once wrote.

    With nuclear-tipped ICBMS, there would be no question of Axis Powers intervention militarily in Syria. None whatsoever.

  246. Don Bacon says:

    Dan Cooper says:
    October 4, 2013 at 8:43 am
    US waking up to threat of Israel

    Baloney. You are merely peddling Iran propaganda from PressTV.

  247. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 4, 2013 at 9:47 am

    October 4, 2013 at 8:32 am

    “The Shia Crescent is only inflmatory to enemies of the Shia; “..we are honored to be the Shia of Ali, we are honored to believe in the Sahifeyeh Fatmiyah, …” as the late Mr. Khomeini once wrote.”

    And, we are dishonored by sectarianism. So, lets not go overboard.

    “With nuclear-tipped ICBMS, there would be no question of Axis Powers intervention militarily in Syria. None whatsoever.”

    Nonsense. Saudi money would have poured into Croatia, arms delivered through Turkey, and everybody particularly Iran would know very well those ICBMs would carry on hibernating in their silos. If that is not the only calculation, the world would have been annihilated a few times already over Vietnam, etc.

  248. Fiorangela says:

    Photi says: October 4, 2013 at 9:01 am

    re the Pistachio wars, and connecting disparate dots —

    US Senate Foreign relations committee members (a plurality of whom are Roman Catholics, by the way) compete to demonstrate who can hate Iran more. Chairman Bob Menendez convened a hearing yesterday to hear testimony from Madeleine Albright’s clone, Wendy Sherman (notice the large pin on her suit — Albright tried to distract from her genocidal policies of starving other people’s children by wearing funky costume jewelry; she even wrote a book about it: I think the subtitle was “fiddling while Rome burns, or How I channeled Nero).

    Senators Ben Cardin, Bob Corker, Tim Kaine (Roman Catholic), ___ Risch (Roman Catholic) vied for honors in insulting Rouhani, Iran, Iran’s government. No lie too outrageous, no slander cured by a sense of shame or fear of being confronted with the facts. Nor did actual rules restrain their eagerness to call down suffering on the Iranian people in order to force them to do what The Empire demands that they do — their understanding of the Nonproliferation Treaty displayed the same degree of integrity as Dershowitz waving a shrunken glove. They are a disgrace to the United States and to Roman Catholicism — that creed DID and DOES have SOME small measure of ethical and humanist grounding, but none of it was in evidence in the Committee room under the chairmanship of the snarling and grotesque Bob Menendez.

    So what master is being served by these nutjobs?
    Likely as not, a pistachio empire and other like-minded profit centers.

    In Menendez’s committee room, Israel and Netanyahu were treated like a longed-for newborn babe, full of innocence and demanding protection to ensure that it attains its doubtless magnificent promise. Iranians are, incongruously, Ishmael’s child.

    According to a recent article in The Daily Forward, Jewish groups that promote the right-wing Israeli agenda are NOT chosen democratically but from among the wealthy/wealthiest in the Jewish community.

    (see discussion of the Forward article at mondoweiss dot net/2013/10/critical-israel-leadersdictators dot html )

    This is not a new phenomenon in most communities nor in the Jewish community. In the ancient Hebrew community, the tradition reaches back to the Babylonian exile and the subsequent Babylonian Talmud era, when the Hebrew people began to be designated “Yehud.” Then and for hundreds of years afterward, the head of the Jewish community throughout the (known) world was the wealthiest man in Babylon. He would have attained his wealth by trading — likely as not through and with trade routes established by ancient Persians, the so-called Silk Road — and by financial activities — banking. His wealth conveyed status and gave him the right to rule on matters of Jewish religious observance and practice. His decrees extended from Babylon to the Jewish resettlement at Jerusalem, although in later years the Palestine wing of the Hebrew people contested the dominance of the Babylon-based leaders. His position did NOT rely on his training in and knowledge of Jewish religious tenets; it was based on his wealth.

    The merchant’s wealth gave him access and entre to the elites and governing councils of the state governing apparatus.

    What is most embarrassing about the behavior of Menendez and his band of dissolute hatemongers is that they do not appear to be aware of the extent to which they are the serfs of an overlord who does not have their interests at heart: the overlord ’employs’ the Senate Serfs to advance his own interests, and not those of the Senate/Serfs or even of the people who truly pay them — the American taxpayer.

    The Senate Serfs are willing to starve the Iranian people to death for peanuts pistachios. Madeleine Albright’s acolyte appeared before them with the assurance that “the price is worth it.” http://www.c-span.org/Events/Sen-Foreign-Relations-Cmte-Examines-Irans-Nuclear-Program/10737441844-1/

  249. Karl.. says:

    Good comment by Roger Cohen/NYTimes about netanyahu.

    http://goo.gl/FKzZdm

  250. Smith says:

    Almost all sanctions that could have been placed on a nation has already been placed on Iran. With the coming sanctions from Senate, this process will be complete.

    That is why the next sanction bill by congress is no more about economics and trade. This coming sanction bill will be “approving the use of military force to deter Iran from developing nuclear weapons.

    The bill states that the US would be “wholly capable, willing and ready to use military force to prevent Iran from obtaining or developing a nuclear weapons capability” and offers “consent” to the president should he wish to take action.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/us-iran-talks-threatened-congress-sanctions

    It is exactly like Iraq scenario. Sanction to weaken a nation and then attack and rape them. Only one thing can stop the psycho white man and his army of house niggers: Nuclear Deterrence by Nuclear Tipped ICBMs’ pointed at England.

  251. Karl.. says:

    Smith

    Congress are a bunch of really sick people indeed.

    Speaking on deterrence, how would Iran introduce them best?

  252. James Canning says:

    Smith,

    You apparently agree with Netanyahu, that Obama has not made it clear he will not allow Iran to build nukes?

  253. Smith says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 4, 2013 at 1:16 pm

    As did all other nuclear armed nations except US.

    Pakistan maintained that their nuclear program is completely peaceful till they tested their nuclear weapons.

    India had maintained that its nuclear program is the epitome of peace and tranquility and they even named their first nuclear test “smiling Buddha” and termed it as a peaceful explosion.

    Israel maintains that its nuclear program is peaceful and is no thread to anybody, keeping quite on extent of its weaponization.

    North Korea always maintained that its nuclear program is peaceful until their first nuclear test.

    England developed its nuclear weapons under the guise of electricity generation and scientific development.

    French always insisted on their peaceful nuclear technology until they tested their first weapon.

    China saw its nuclear industry as a modernizing scientific force until it tested its first weapon.

    Russia announced that without it developing peace keeping nuclear weapons, US would be the sole unbalanced nuclear power and a threat to the world stability.

    US is the only country that developed a nuclear program for the sole purpose of weaponization.

  254. Don Bacon says:

    Smith says:
    October 4, 2013 at 1:09 pm
    It is exactly like Iraq scenario.
    No. Iran is not like Iraq either militarily or economically.

    1.Iran has a counter-strike military capability including short, mid, and long missiles, mines, torpedoes and other weapons useful against ships and Gulf bases.

    2.Iran has been hurt but not crippled by sanctions.
    Latest GDP 2014 growth predictions (%):
    Iran 1.1, Germany 1.5, UK 1.5, France 0.8, Italy 0.5
    http://www.economywatch.com/economic-statistics/year/2014/

  255. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    You keep arguing that the moron in the White House in 2007 should have moved toward improving US relations with Iran. I agree. George W. Bush should have taken advice of the Iraq Study Group: make deals with Syria and Iran, and pull all US troops out of Iraq asap.

    A warmonger was occupying the office of the VP, in 2007. Dick Cheney and his gang did not want a deal with Iran.

  256. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 4, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    Oh yeah?

    So the warmonger moron is gone and what has changed exactly again?

    No.

    The refusal to change course with respect to Iran was a joint US, EU, Russia, India, China exercise.

    Now it is too late.

    Blood has been spilt and there is no going back to status quo ante of 2003, or 2007, or 2010, 0r 2013.

    For Iran not to be nuclear-armed when the entire world is on the edge of the dissolution of the political, economic, and military foundations of the Peace of Yalta is not just an act of extreme imprudence but of suicidal folly – in my opinion.

  257. James Canning says:

    Patrick Cockburn in the 10 Oct LOndon Review of Books has perceptive comments on the failures of Western military intervention in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria. And why these failures tend not to be reported well, if at all.

  258. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I think you fail to grasp the core agreement among the P5+1 that Iran should not build nukes.

    And you overlook the fact Obama actually wanted to improve US relations with Iran, when he entered the White House. He simply lacked the experience and confidence needed to get the job done.

    Israel wants a continuation of the nuclear dispute, to enable continued expansion of the illegal Jewish colonies in the West Bank.

  259. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I think your conception of global instability due to “collapse” of Peace of Yalta is wildly ill-conceived.

  260. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 4, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    Your observations are:

    irrelevant,
    misinformed,
    incorrect,
    only minutely germiane

    in that order.

  261. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 4, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    If I am wrong, Iran will be in a strong position.

    If I right, Iran will likely survive as a unitary state the coming global period of barbarism.

  262. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    When you say “blood has been spilt”, what do you mean? Are you referring to the vicious civil war in Syria? Set up by Qatar and Saudi Arabia because they feared Iran would try to build nukes, or get close to being able to build them quickly?

  263. James Canning says:

    Abe Foxman of ADL, the aggressive group who pushed hard for US military intervention in Syria, is unhappy that most American Jews do not think Israel is sincere in trying to make a deal with the Palestinians. Pew survey was in New York Times this week.

  264. Photi says:

    Fiorangela says:
    October 4, 2013 at 11:01 am

    Fiorangela, i am only partially through the Senate foreign relations committee hearing. A couple of things already stand out. For one, Sherman seems visibly worried that the international sanctions regime against Iran is falling apart. If you go to around 38 mins or so in the video, Sherman goes on and on about how the subject of Secretary Kerry’s bilateral meetings throughout the UN last week in New York was invariably about Iran and the sanctions and about all the other diplomatic flurry surrounding Iran and the US. She also talks about the government shutdown and how this is negatively effecting the ability of the Treasury Department to enforce the sanctions internationally.

    The various senators conducting the hearing also keep bringing up the sanctions, saying that if any pressure is relieved on Iran (in the form of easing of sanctions) in exchange for actions on Iran’s part, it would be next to near impossible to re-apply those sanctions in the event of Iranian failure to implement the agreement.

    The Senators and Ms. Sherman are also all quite convinced that their implementation of the sanctions is the sole reason Iran has decided to negotiate at all (apparently notwithstanding all the other times Iran has agreed to negotiate).

    If you consider the nervousness with which the Senators do not want to ease any of the sanctions against Iran (even in the face of good-faith actions from Iran), and the nervousness of Wendy Sherman when discussing the sanctions vis a vis the international community, to me it appears the powers that be are afraid the sanctions are about to fall apart regardless of any agreements made. If you also consider that the military option against Iran is off the table (note Americans’ resolve on Syria), the US government has passed the date of maximum leverage against Iran. the inability of the Americans to negotiate a deal this time will mean the next time around, Iran will not need the deal at all. No deal now ensures a bad deal in the future (from the US perspective).

    Also, it is clear the Senators are nothing more than spokespeople for the Netanyahu government. Notice they keep bringing up this book by Rouhani and how it shows the deceptive nature of Iranians (it is in their “DNA” says Sherman). This is the same UNTRUE point Netanyahu made at the UN earlier this week. A fabrication, a lie, and our esteemed (bought and paid for) Senators are trying to formulate policy based on this lie? Unacceptable to be the patsies of foreign stooges.

    Peter Jenkins on one of Netanyahu’s many lies at the UN:

    Jenkins paraphrasing Netanyahu: “Rouhani was Iran’s chief nuclear negotiator between 2003 and 2005. He masterminded the strategy that enabled Iran to advance its nuclear weapons program behind a smoke screen of diplomatic engagement. Here’s what he said in his 2011 book: “While we were talking to the Europeans in Tehran, we were installing equipment in Isfahan.””

    Jenkins’ response:

    “The US intelligence assessment is that Iran abandoned its nuclear weapons program in 2003. Francois Nicoullaud, who was France’s ambassador to Iran at the time, has written that it was Dr. Rouhani who, with the support of Iran’s Supreme Leader, ordered abandonment.

    Iran’s completion of a uranium conversion plant at Isfahan in 2004 occurred with the full knowledge of Iran’s European negotiating partners, and indeed of the rest of the world, thanks to International Atomic Energy Agency’s (IAEA) inspection visits to the site. In doing so, Iran was not in breach of its 2003 agreement with Europe.”

    http://www.lobelog.com/barking-up-the-wrong-tree/

  265. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 4, 2013 at 9:47 am

    Question stands.

    How did US nuclear arsenal intimidate Russia from helping the Vietcong?

    How did the Soviet’s nukes inhibit American aid to the Mojahedin?

    How did the Russian Federation’s bombs intimidate saakashvili?

    etc.

    etc.

    etc.

    Why do you think Iranian ICBMs would have made a difference in what has obtained in Syria for the last 3 years?

  266. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 4, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    In a more elegant and logical tabled way:

    =========================================================
    XXXXXXXXXX | Nuclear armed Iran | Nuclear disarmed Iran |
    ———————————————————
    fyi’s right | Iran is secured | Iran is destroyed |
    ———————————————————
    fyi’s wrong | Iran is secured | Iran is secured |
    =========================================================

    As per rules of mathematical truth table, Iran should be nuclear armed. This is the only condition under which Iran will be secured and will prosper.

  267. Karl.. says:

    Interesting reading comments about netanyahu at MSM sites, like 8/10 are negative of him. At the same time though, articles about rouhani is like 6/10 bad but at the same time its getting better.

  268. James Canning says:

    Photi,

    Yes, bravo Peter Jenkins and his exposure of Netanayahu’s deceit.

  269. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 4, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    Keep telling yourself that nuclear arms do not matter; may be you will believe it.

  270. Don Bacon says:

    It’s obvious that sanctions have not curtailed Iran’s nuclear program, in fact they have accelerated it. But those facts escape the U.S.

    The sanctions are not fully implemented, for one thing. The U.S. has yet to punish any of its international trading partners for violating sanctions and it has extended sanction waivers to thirteen countries.

    And then there many ways to evade sanctions, and Iran has found most of them. My favorite story is from Ted Koppel on NPR, Dec 26, 2011 —
    TED KOPPEL: . . . I was in Iran about four years ago, and I was trying to check out of the hotel and handed my credit card to the cashier at the hotel. He said, would you come back for your credit card in half an hour, please? I did. I’d forgotten, totally, that, you know, obviously, he can’t use an American credit card in Iran. But I’d handed the credit card in without thinking about it, came back half hour later. The bill was paid. I forgot about it. Two or three weeks later, my assistant came in to see me and said, Ted, did you buy $1,300 worth of sporting goods in Dubai?
    (LAUGHTER)
    KOPPEL: And I said, how much is that again? And it turned out to be precisely the sum of my hotel bill in Tehran. I tell that story only to point out that the Iranians have found numerous ways of getting around those sanctions.
    http://www.npr.org/2011/11/30/142950258/tension-grows-between-iran-and-the-west

    But the U.S. wants to believe that sanctions work, so let them. The U.S. State Department’s sanctions chief, David S. Cohen, believes it. He has said that Tehran sought sanctions relief in exchange for nuclear concessions. “They would not have done so had the impact of sanctions not affected their calculus,” he told the committee.

    The impact of sanctions affected Iran’s calculus? Speaking of claculus, popular history has it that Newton and Leibniz created calculus out of whole cloth, but that overlooks Abu Ali al-Hasan ibn al-Haytham (also known by the Latinized form of his name: Alhazen) Alhazen is said to be the first person to have integrated a fourth-degree polynomial. He was born in Basra, Persia, now in southeastern Iraq, and so he affected everyone’s calculus. Take that, Cohen!

  271. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 4, 2013 at 3:53 pm

    If Soviets and China were not nuclear armed, US would have punished them for their support of VietCong forces. The nuclear arms helped China and Soviets stand up to US invasion of Vietnam.

    US nuclear arms protected US, from a Soviet punishment for support of Taliban/Qaeda in Afghanistan. The nuclear arms helped shield US against a direct retaliation of Soviets.

    Saakashvili lost the war and a chunk of its territory upon his provocation of the matter on encouragement of US/EU who then denied him to join NATO and refused nuclear umbrella over his nation. If Saakashvili was nuclear armed, there would have been no direct attack on his nation.

    Syria would have been protected the same way Spain, Italy, Germany, Denmark etc etc are protected by NATO nuclear shield.

  272. Smith says:

    Don Bacon says:
    October 4, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    1- Iran’s conventional forces are not large enough to stand up to US. Only Baghdad Bob and people like him, believe the contrary.

    2- Economic growth takes second priority when a nation is under attack.

  273. Karl.. says:

    Don Bacon

    And how useful are troops when you get bombarded from the air?

    You cant compare the GDP like that, mainly because the GDP would be much higher in Iran if it were not for the sanctions.

  274. Smith says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 4, 2013 at 4:21 pm

    Basically it is useless. The only deterrence that works is deterrence by punishment of nuclear weapons. Nothing else works.

    And Iran should forget about sanctions to be lifted. It will not happen. Iran should work hard to build an economy based on solid foundations instead of on western foundations. And the main thing that is holding back Iran’s GDP is not the sanctions but the uncertainty and insecurity. Once Iran becomes a nuclear armed nation, the uncertainty and insecurity will die off and things will start to improve from there.

  275. Don Bacon says:

    Smith says:
    October 4, 2013 at 4:13 pm
    1- Iran’s conventional forces are not large enough to stand up to US.

    Who said anything about conventional forces? I didn’t. Iran doesn’t need “troops.” I mentioned missiles, mines and torpedoes. There are also other unconventional tools in Iran’s kit, including small boats and cyberwarfare.

    First, the UN would have to be warned to remove all inspectors, as in Iraq. Then all US warships would have to be removed from the Persian Gulf to positions at least 50 miles south in the Arabian Sea. They are sitting ducks for cruise missiles in the Gulf. So Iran gets advance notice.
    Ships are movable, land facilities are not. They are all soft targets for Iran’s extensive arsenal of missiles.
    — al-Minhad air base in Dubai, UAE
    — Fifth Fleet HQ – Bahrain
    — Kuwait, three bases, 15,000 US troops,, including a couple of brigade combat teams and a combat aviation brigade.
    — Al Udeid Air Base, Qatar, forward HQ of US Central Command
    — Overall in the region there are reportedly 40,000 American servicemen ready for action.
    — Apparently the families of Coastal Patrol Craft will have the option of moving to the Gulf.

    And that’s why despite all the US and Israel bluster there has not been an attack on Iran.

    Also take a gander at Operation Millenium Challenge 2002. On the second day of the exercise Red used a fleet of small boats to determine the position of Blue’s fleet. Without warning, Red launched a massive salvo of cruise missiles, overwhelming the Blue forces’ electronic sensors, destroying sixteen warships. This includes one aircraft carrier, ten cruisers and five out of the six amphibious ships.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

  276. Smith says:

    Decades ago when India was considered a communist block country by western world, the Indian government tried to reach deals with western pharmaceutical countries for provision of cheap medicines to large Indian population. The western companies were of course not interested and only supplied medicines on double, triple prices.

    Then Indian took a brave decision in 70’s and made laws that basically de-legitimized the rights of western companies over medicines they had invented. With government support for R&D, Indian companies started to reverse engineer and manufacture very cheap generic version of western medicines. Within a couple of decades, India had become the world’s largest manufacturer of cheap generic medicines (even WHO now buys almost all of the medicines it distributes around the world from India).

    Today, India is reaping the benefits. It was amazing to read this news out of US: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24393918

  277. Smith says:

    Don Bacon says:
    October 4, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    You are ignorant. All the “tools” you mentioned are actually conventional weapons.

    A war on Iran will be fought from the air. Iranian cities will be bombarded and all infrastructure that Iran has built in the past 100 years will be destroyed. Even if Iran manages to destroy a few ships and a few Bedouin fantasy buildings, it will bring no progress for Iran. Rather it will escalate to more destruction and death.

    The idea of nuclear deterrence is the simple fact that no war will happen to begin with. Because nuclear deterrence is really fool proof. But of course ignorant people like you are incapable to understand this simple fact because maybe you are retarded. Or maybe because you are a pro-war person who likes to see Iran destroyed (plus a few rusting ships and Bedouin structures).

  278. Fiorangela says:

    Karl.. says: October 4, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    Not at all impressed with Roger’s comments.

    He’s a very skillful writer; he is surely aware that 80% of the audience reads only the first two paragraphs, skims the next few, and is gone by the middle of the piece.

    Cohen’s opening emphasized the Hitler comparison — that is the first idea that is planted in the reader’s head. As I recall (I didn’t go back to check), the second and/or third paragraphs reviewed more of the narrative of German history that has been cemented in place in the western brain, thereby, um, cementing in place in current readers, the imperialist narrative re German, but with reference to Iran.

    After three lines of a kinda sorta fair treatment of Iran, Cohen opens the next paragraph with, “Iran has much to answer for.”

    Then Cohen shifted into scolding Israel for using Iran as a smokescreen to obscure the fact that it is not implementing the two state solution.

    The two state solution is dead. Been dead for years.

    Maybe Cohen included some obituary-like remarks in the remainder of his piece, but I stopped reading ….

    = = =
    NIAC is preparing for their fall Conference and offering participants the option of ONLY dinner with Roger Cohen.

    For the life of me I don’t understand why NIAC hosts propagandists. Triangulation went out with Dick Morris and the Clintons. It seems to me Parsi & his band of Iranians need to decide if they want to advocate for an independent Iran, or if they want to give American imperialists a toehold in their organization and in the US policy that US adopts toward Iran. The present NIAC policy brings to mind Jesus’s comment — be either hot or cold; if lukewarm, I will vomit you out of my mouth.

  279. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    You think Israel can be coerced into annexing portions of West Bank with large numbers of non-Jews? Highly unlikely, in my view.

  280. James Canning says:

    Don Bacon,

    The US has not attacked Iran because Iran is not actually trying to build nukes. Dick Cheney’s hopes of attacking Iran in 2006-07 were blocked by the CIA.

  281. James Canning says:

    Smith,

    Saakashvili’s blunder (attacking Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia) was direct result of very stupid comments etc by John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Joe Lieberman, and other neocon warmongers, when S visited the US. And Condoleezza Rice botched her half-hearted effort to flash a “red light”.

  282. Don Bacon says:

    JC, apparently you didn’t get the memo. The Iran “nuclear crisis” is bogus, the real objective is regime change, which might be achieved with a military attack. The US has considerable experience doing this.

  283. fyi says:

    All:

    Truth from the mouth of Mr. Netanyahu:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24395917

  284. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says: October 4, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    James, no entity gives up power willingly. That applies doubly to Israel.

    The FIRST revolution that must take place is in the United States. Menendez & his committee, and the power of zionist money and zionist ability to violently coerce — economically, psychologically, socially, religiously, politically — in the US must be overthrown.

  285. Rehmat says:

    London ‘Jewish Chronicle’ American correspondent and author, J.J. Goldberg, believes that Benjamin Netanyahu failed in his mission to stop Barack Obama from talking with ”moderate” Hassan Rouhani – because there was no Monica Lewinsky in the White House to blackmail Barack Obama.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/10/05/bibi-where-was-monica-when-i-needed-her/

  286. Smith says:

    When England threatened to nuke Argentine and thus forced François Mitterrand to give her the codes to disable Argentina’s deadly French made Exocet anti-ship cruise missiles which permitted British navy to strike Argentine: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/22/books.france

  287. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 4, 2013 at 3:53 pm

    “Keep telling yourself that nuclear arms do not matter; may be you will believe it.”

    Well, I believe it already.

    I also believe you have not produced a single circumstance that a nuclear weapon would be of use. When you get round to it, I’m all ears.

  288. Karl.. says:

    Fiorangela

    You know Cohen critized Netanyahyu right?

  289. nico says:

    Those moves by the IR seem strange while no agreement is officially reached with the west yet.
    Could it be that BBJ is right in his assumption that a deal has already been reached in principle with the US with details to be rolled out quickly ?
    Could it be other reasons in the IR rebufging India ?
    China pressure maybe ? Internal politic ? Commercial consideration ?
    Any hint ?

    http://iran-times.com/rohani-may-be-playing-nice-with-us-but-not-with-india/

    “The Hindu daily quotes “highly placed sources” in India’s Oil and Natural Gas Ministry as saying Iranian Oil Minister Bijan Namdar-Zanganeh has conveyed to the Indian government that Iran will not accept full rupee payment for crude oil imports, as agreed in July, and India will have to pay the rest in euros.
    In addition, Iran has also told Indian diplomats in Tehran that it is withdrawing its offer of a production sharing agreement (PSA) for the development of the Farzad-B gasfield by an Indian-led consortium as the conditions were not acceptable to the new government.
    And, in a third rebuff to India, the Indian Express reports that the Rohani Administration has withdrawn the Ahmadi-nejad offer of natural gas at a heavily discounted price of 84 cents per million BTUs for a urea plant that Indian investors were interested in building somewhere on Iran’s coastline.”

  290. Sineva says:

    BiBiJon says:
    October 4, 2013 at 2:54 pm
    The one big difference that I can think of would have been no threats of us aggression after the gas attacks and syria would not have had to sacrifice its chemical weapons to avoid an attack,altho` with a nuclear armed iran backing it up it probably wouldnt have needed chemical weapons anyway

    James Canning says:
    October 4, 2013 at 7:03 pm
    Actually I think Don makes an excellent point,iran could inflict substantial damage to us military forces in the region,not to mention the global economic effects of choking off over 20% of the worlds oil,that I think rather than not building nukes is what has deterred the us up until now.I have no doubt that if the us or israel thought they could get away with it unscathed they would have attacked iran long before now

    As for a nuclear armed iran,I think that at the moment its increasingly credible japan option is enough,the very real threat that any attack could bring about the very thing that the us and israel fears is probably enough to make them think twice,of course it depends on whether they learnt the lessons of osirak,sadly I`ve learnt never to underestimate the stupidity of the west,especially when it comes to the middle east,hopefully the us has begun to realise with iran just as it ultimately did with both the ussr and the prc that crushing or containment is just not a realistic option,so that really only leaves detente or more cold war,hopefully it will choose detente[but I`m not that optimistic]

  291. nico says:

    Another indication that a deal has already been reached between Iran and the west.
    It seems related to Iran oil export unilateral embargo imposed by the US. And maybe the baking and currency war.
    However that is only interpretation not crystal clear evidence.

    Iran’s Oil Minister Views Market Share as “More Important than Oil Prices”
    http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13920713000034

    “Zanganeh said the Oil Ministry is helping Foreign Ministry defeat sanctions, noting that the main job is assigned to the highest decision-making bodies in the country.
    “In coordination with the entire establishment and based on collective wisdom, we have taken the necessary measures to relax sanctions and we hope that they will come to fruition soon. It must be noted that in politics, everything must go on with patience,” said the minister.Zanganeh said measures are underway in oil production companies to boost their production, adding that the necessary reports have been submitted by the companies regarding their enhanced capacity over the coming month.
    The minister said some foreign companies have voiced willingness to return o Iran and operate in petroleum industry projects in Iran.”

    End quote.

    So “necessary steps have been taken to relax the sanctions”…
    Those words reverberates with Shell and Total remarks regarding their need and willingness to be players in Iran oil.

  292. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 4, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    “Truth from the mouth of Mr. Netanyahu”

    Who knew? Hell has frozen over. Thanks for the weather report.

    The immortality that USSR, and South Africa experienced tells me the weather report may be a little ahistorical.

    Lets see other than truth, what the gentleman is really mouthing.

    a) He imagines that Israel’s apartheid system was immortalized by Israel lying and cheating her way to acquiring a nuclear arsenal. So, it is just a projection.

    b) As he did in the UN, he is trying to split the Iranian populations opinion about nuclear technology, which he knows is uniformly in favor. He is hoping at least the monafeghin will associate nuclear technology with the system’s longevity, and start to oppose it on those grounds. A weak ploy, but better than the cartoon diagrams, surely.

  293. Fiorangela says:

    Karl.. says: October 5, 2013 at 4:09 am

    Karl, I reread Cohen’s article paragraph-by-paragraph, sentence by sentence.

    It’s even worse than my first impression.

    Cohen criticizes Netanyahu on style and on his “distorted priorities.”
    He cautions Netanyahu to stop the “bluster” because there is a “shift” in the Jewish American community regarding Israel.
    Cohen offers as evidence of this shift is a statement by the head of the American Jewish Committee and the growing clout of J Street.

    Compare the language Cohen associates with Iran/Rouhani with that associated with Israel/Netanyahu: Iran & Rouhani are linked with Nazi Germany four times; this sentence is the standard-bearer of damned-by-faint-praise with some obfuscation tossed in for good measure:

    “Iran is no Nazi-like totalitarian state with a single authority but an authoritarian regime subject to liberalizing and repressive waves.”

    Notice how Cohen uses nearly the same words to describe what Iran is NOT as he uses to say what Iran IS. What impression about Iran is left in the mind of the reader after reading that sentence? “Authoritarian” stands out, and “regime” is a pejorative.

    This is Cohen’s positive statement about Iran.
    Being a fair-and-balanced journalist, Cohen is compelled to recite the Likudnik narrative speak truthiness about Iran:

    “Iran has much to answer for. Rouhani’s “Iran poses absolutely no threat to the world or the region” is a preposterous statement. It has hidden aspects of its enrichment program. It has taken American and Israeli lives and attacked U.S. interests, through the Revolutionary Guards, Hezbollah and other arms of its security apparatus. It has placed odious Israel hatred and America-as-Satan at the core of its revolutionary ideology.”

    Now, count up the references to Israel and notice the language surrounding them. Cohen’s core criticism of Israel/Netanyahu is the state’s failure to enact the two-state solution and Bibi’s diversion from that fact by “blustering” about Iran.

    With what language does Cohen surround this criticism of Bibi/Israel?

    Here’s the key sentence:

    “The real challenge to Israel as a Jewish and democratic nation is the failure to achieve a two-state peace with the Palestinians and the prolongation of a West Bank occupation that leaves Israel overseeing millions of disenfranchised Palestinians.”

    When the topic is Israel, the language Cohen surrounds it with are “Jewish” and “democracy”, and bad acts are “failures” due to “prolongations” of the “disenfranchised” status of Palestinians who, seemingly, inconvenience Israel which must “oversee” them. Cohen eschews language — or facts — that reveal that Israel behaves illegally; imprisons and kills innocent people including children; bulldozes the houses of people who have lived on Palestinian land for hundreds of years and removes those people to “concentrated areas.”
    (see mondoweiss dot net/2013/10/battir-parallel-ongoing dot html

    and

    mondoweiss dot net/2013/10/connecting-palestinian-villages dot html “Israel expands ‘Trans-Samaria’ Highway connecting Tel Aviv to Jordan Valley, steals land from Palestinian villages in the process”

    and

    Israel demolishes bedouin village the was key to two-state solution )

    Regarding J Street and the two state solution, to which Cohen devotes over 30% of his article. He states that J Street, the not-AIPAC, advocates for the two-state solution and is “growing”, such that “there will, for the first time, be an organized, well-funded American Jewish constituency committed to a two-state outcome…”

    Americans and especially advocates for Iran should be very concerned about this new, “organized, well-funded American Jewish constituency” because its agenda is exactly that of the old, “organized, well-funded American Jewish constituency.” As Ian Lustick pointed out in a New York Times piece recently (perhaps Cohen does not subscribe…), the two-state solution is dead, finis, ain’t gonna happen. J Street knows this. Cohen knows this. Netanyahu knows this. Every Palestinian Arab knows this. Obama knows this.

    Furthermore, J Street’s Iran position is precisely that of all the other “organized, well-funded American Jewish constituencies” which is encapsulated in Cohen’s dogwhistle to that constituency with his litany of the things “Iran has to answer for.”

    So, Karl, “did I notice that Cohen criticized Netanyahu?”

    Did he?

  294. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    smithy-joon,

    You seem to imply that SL is a “house n****r” (pardon my French).

    You want have a little talk about that dadash? (you know, “Shia-to-Shia”)

    If he says no nukes, no nukes, if he says nuke-em, nuke-em. Got that? (you know, as a “Shia”…)

    The problem has always been idiots like you who don’t listen to their Imam…ponder that smarty-pants.

    (BTW, did you get laid yet in one of those “street orgies”? No? LOSER!)

  295. Don Bacon says:

    nico says:
    October 5, 2013 at 7:48 am

    Regarding the IR unfriendly moves with India, I suspect that it signals not a deal with the US but rather an Iran-Pakistan arrangement now that NATO is pulling out of Afghanistan and the possibility is dimming for a residual force. It looks like Pakistan and its Taliban clients will be back in business after a twelve-year interruption while the West tried unsuccessfully (again) to hustle the East.

    Hey, Pakistan may even start shoveling dirt for the IP pipeline that was “inaugurated in March! (nothing yet on that). On that I suspect that US financial threats (military aid and IMF) have prevailed over Pakistan’s intense need for energy.

  296. Don Bacon says:

    There is no way Palestine can be a state in the usual sense but only a bantustan.

  297. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    smithy-joon,

    Do you think Jenabe Malek Ashtar was a “HN” when he obeyed Imam Ali (as) who told him not to cut off Muawiyah’s head while Jenabe Malek was grabbing Muawiyah by the beard in battle?

    Do you think that the followers of Imam Hassan (as) were “HN” when they obeyed him when he made peace with Muawiyah?

    Do you think we were all “HN” when Imam told us to end the war (while you were still floating in your fathers testicles)?

    Please, don’t hold back, you seem to know exactly what Islam wants from us, more than Imam or Agha…tell us if you think Agha is not leading the Ummah well and that he should unleash them nukes?

    No? Don’t have the balls to say it publicly? That’s what I thought.

    (BTW, Don Bacon was fighting battles when your father was still floating around in your grandfathers testicles- the only one “ignorant” of war is you (like your idol). How good if you guys would fight a battle- just one- and then maybe you guys would have some credibility. Experience always trumps information. Quickly write that down in your “Notes on War and Warfare” notepad!)

  298. Karl.. says:

    Fiorangela

    Yes he criticized Netanyahu, again its not Cohen who makes the Nazi comparsion, Cohen speaks out against them being used by Netanyahu.
    I thought it was a good article because it was from a mainstream editorial, which is often pro-israel.

  299. fyi says:

    nico says:
    October 5, 2013 at 8:14 am

    Merely tactical transactional items; Indians were never ever going to move on with any investments in Iran unless approved by US Government.

    It was time to end the charade.

    The currency issue is indicative that Iranians can now sell oil elsewhere and receive the payments in Euro, dollar etc.

    They no longer need India’s business as much as they needed a few months ago.

    The economic siege war against Iran has past its worst phase for Iran – Iranian ships are servicing Iranian business although not in all ports of call.

    And the devaluation of the rial finally has stimulated the local production in Iran – I think a rial to dollar ratio of 35,000 would keep production humming in Iran.

    On the other hand, if the Iranian government rationalizes the fuel costs – both for automobiles as well as for factories and power plants, then rial has to further weaken against the dollar to keep manufacturing humming in Iran.

    Rial should never be less that 35,000 to the dollar.

  300. fyi says:

    Don Bacon says:
    October 5, 2013 at 10:38 am

    Yes, an Arab Palestine is no longer viable; Americans killed it 13 years ago.

    I think one must devise practical ways to safe-guard the rights of Jews in the future Palestine Republic when State of Israel has ceased to exist.

  301. Fiorangela says:

    What a strange coincidence.

    Netanyahu’s talking points on Charlie Rose http://www.charlierose.com/watch/60275377

    are the same talking points between Wendy Sherman and the US Senate committee on foreign relations. www dot c-span dot org/Events/Sen-Foreign-Relations-Cmte-Examines-Irans-Nuclear-Program/10737441844-1/

    great minds in the same channel?

    or hack actors reading from the same script?

    Bibi on Charlie Rose placed his markers:
    –Palestinians acknowledge a Jewish state
    –Palestinians disarm
    –Israel maintains military control along the Jordan river to ensure that Palestinians not rise up and create an Iranian state

  302. James Canning says:

    Don Bacon,

    Palestine can be a state even if it does not have an army. I think the primary need is to obtain international recognition, with pre-1967 borders.

  303. nico says:

    Why the US economic collapse is inevitable and the globalized economy as seen today is living its last breaths.
    Why the Obamacare is not the real issue… Social security had surplus for a suarter century.
    This surplus has been pumped by the US treasury in exchange of IOU which cannot be exchanged on the market.
    As usual explained with simple words by Paul Craig Robert.
    Simply brilliant.

    The Real Crisis Is Not The Government Shutdown.
    http://paulcraigroberts.org/2013/10/02/real-crisis-government-shutdown-paul-craig-roberts/

  304. James Canning says:

    Sineva,

    I will say it again: Dick Cheney and the neocon warmongers wanted a US war with Iran, in 2006-07. CIA blocked it.

    Obama does not want war with Iran. Full stop. But Obama will be pressured into taking further steps, if Iran tries to get too close to ability to build nukes quickly.

    Yes, Iran may have ability to block seal lanes into PG long enough to trigger global recession. And this would benefit Iran in what way?

  305. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Apparently most American Jews are coming to grasp the fact Israel is needlessly injuring the interests of the American people in the Middle East. And especially that Israel’s insane illegal colonisation programme has badly injured American interests in the ME.

    Increasing rates of intermarriage facilitate this trend, in my view.

  306. James Canning says:

    Don Bacon,

    I agree Israel and warmongers in the US hype the nuclear dispute with Iran, because in fact they do want regime change. I do not believe Obama himself seeks regime change in Iran. Many powerful Democrats may hope for regime change, however.

    Obviously, Iran does better by not making things easier for haters of Iran to get their way.

  307. James Canning says:

    Don Bacon,

    Russia and China do not want “regime change” in Iran. And they want Iran to make a deal. And they strongly oppose any Iranian nukes. To them, the dispute is most certainly not “bogus”.

  308. Avg American says:

    ToivoS says:
    September 29, 2013 at 7:09 pm
    Ideally, you are absolutely correct. The Leverett’s objective stance is now at a better time than ever to drill their points across to the US people. They do need to strike while the iron is hot. The US population is sick of ME spending and wars – no one wants it – that was clear during Obama’s Syria attempt. Then he got congress involved, etc,etc.. This will help avoid any new wars or confrontations in the ME. However, there remain many hurdles that the authors must face. Namely, several US special interest groups including but not limited to AIPAC, Radical southern baptist groups and senate representatives, and the American “sheep like” citizens who honestly believe what MSM tesla them. So, I will not hold my breath. I hope the truth will be sold, oh I mean told. I think it’s great they are standing up and supporting objective facts ne’er addressed to the US population.

    I mean doesn’t anyone around the US wonder what would happen if they just have diplomacy with Iran a chance ? They portray it like it is some voodoo topic.

  309. Karl.. says:

    James
    October 5, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    Of course it is bogus.

    You have yourself said that the issue with Iran isnt the nuclear issue. You confused?

  310. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says: October 5, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    James, I was ‘back in the old neighborhood’ when Lynne Olson spoke about her book, “Those Angry Days,” the conflict between interventionists and isolationists to involve US in Britain’s war against Germany.

    FDR was pressured then by forces similar to those that are pressuring Obama today, and in similar fashion, i.e. use of massive propaganda (British excelled at this; Germany was never any good at propaganda — they were too rational and not psychologically adept); character assassination, wiretapping, opening mail and even diplomatic communications, claims of antisemitism; ADL was highly active in the campaign to get US into war; Congress was gradually subverted; FBI and IRS were used to destroy “isolationists”; millionaires and media moguls committed their venues to involving US in war.

    The parallels are striking.

    Which leads me to believe — fear — that we are at an extremely dangerous moment in history, more perilous than the period Olson writes about because today, the American people have been steeped in propaganda for most of their lives, and assessing an “alternate” version of events will destroy 70-year old foundations.

    Furthermore, as is stated in the Roger Cohen article that inhabits Karl’s dream world, Israel now has two large, well-funded groups to advance Israel’s interests, not just the relatively newly organized Jewish committees and zionist organizations with a few leaders that criss-crossed the US 1933-1948. To be sure those few leaders wielded enormous power: Sam Untermyer, Felix Frankfurter, Louis Brandeis and Rabbi Sam Wise had equal access to the White House and Checkers/Chartwell, and they enjoyed substantial financial support from the Warburgs, Rockefellers and Rothschilds. They drew into their network of influence Christian and Catholic leaders from Bishop Mundelein in Chicago to the highest ranking Episcopal clergymen in New England — gaining the support of “Christians” is not a new gambit when war is in the offing.

    In Olson’s “Angry Days,” the US Congress was deeply divided, with a majority holding anti-interventionist views. They were systematically turned against each other, and then incrementally, for war. Those incremental measures were first, to reverse neutrality laws “as the best way to keep peace;” then to protect British shipping “to keep peace;” next, to trade old battleships to Britain in exchange for streatgic islands; then, to lend weapons to Britain, once again in the name of ensuring the security of the United States and as a measure to prevent US involvement in war.

    Old men like Sen. William Borah saw the trajectory of these actions and argued against them and for reason rather than passion as long as life was in him, but he started the fight at a late age and died in the struggle.

    It is not certain that Obama has either the guile or the strength of character FDR, and he faces even larger pressure points than even FDR.

  311. James Canning says:

    “Engagement [with Iran] is not appeasement, it’s not surrender . . . ”
    – – Chuck Hagel, quoted in New York Times today

  312. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Many of those who pushed FDR toward American participation in the Second World War, feared that the US would be faced with war with Germany in future, without help from Soviet Union. Or Britain, ptentially.

    Today, many of those who try to prevent Obama from improving relations between the US and Iran, do so in order to enable Israel to continue its illegal colonisation of the West Bank. Another element is fear on part of some Saudis and other Gulf Arabas, that Iran will stir up serious problems in Shia communities in Saudi (and other Gulf countries).

    The US obviously had to be concerned about conquest of all of Europe by Nazi Germany (and Italy).

    By contrast, the US needs to be concerned about the insane Israeli colonisation programme in the WB, and that is what many who push for war with Iran, or continued bad relations, want to prevent.

  313. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    I say that Israel (and other countries) use the nuclear dispute to prevent an improvement of US relations with Iran.

    This does not in any way mean the nuclear dispute is “bogus” because Iran itself takes actions with its nuclear programme that create ambiguity.

  314. James Canning says:

    Avg American,

    The notion the US should not have relations with Iran, because Iran is not friendly toward Israel, is foolish. Stupid beyond belief. And brought to the American people by Aipac (and other groups).

  315. Karl.. says:

    James

    Ill take it that you are confused then because the nuclear issue is bogus.

  316. James Canning says:

    Jafari, head of Revolutionary Guards, is quoted in Daily Telegraph as saying Rounhani should not have accepted Obama’s phone call in New York. Wrong, but not surprising.

  317. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Just what is “bogus” about the nuclear dispute? Specifically.

  318. Smith says:

    Iraqi military expert (the military that Iran could not defeat and for its defeat Iran’s IRGC cheif commander had asked for nuclear weapons): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s27Oq5ot0ZI

  319. Karl.. says:

    James

    Thats why I said you are confused, the issue with Iran is not the nuclear its the government/policy itself.

  320. nico says:

    Hillary Clinton, James Baker III on Iran: “We Ought to Take Em Out”, “We’re going James Canning says:
    October 5, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    “Karl..,Just what is “bogus” about the nuclear dispute? Specifically”

    James Canning says:
    October 5, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    “Karl..,I say that Israel (and other countries) use the nuclear dispute to prevent an improvement of US relations with Iran.”

    As usual the exceptionalist leftist Canning thinks all is because the Jews and Iran idiocy.
    As I time and again demonstrated on this site that he is a racist supremacist.
    Then the only logical conclusion is that he lies intentionally in order to carry out his disgusting hasbarah.
    That is to conceil the sheer reality of the Anglo centuries old policy of systematic immorality, criminality, racism and their need to assert their full spectrum dominance in order to feed their greed and lust of power over other people. To prosper at the expense of others.
    Like animals.

    Mr Canning wants a specific about the boggus nuclear case ?
    This little video should interest all on this site.

    Hillary Clinton, James Baker III on Iran: “We Ought to Take Em Out”, “We’re going to Provoke an Attack because then we will be in Power for as long as Anyone can Imagine”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/hillary-clinton-james-baker-iii-on-iran-we-ought-to-take-em-out-were-going-to-provoke-an-attack-because-then-we-will-be-in-power-for-as-long-as-anyone-can-imagine/5352822

    Good enough Mr Exceptionalist ?

  321. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says: October 5, 2013 at 2:29 pm

    “The US obviously had to be concerned about conquest of all of Europe by . . . Italy.”

    One of the funniest things I’ve read in a long time.

    When a friend wanted to insult my Italian heritage, he would offer to sell me a gun from the Italian army: “never fired, dropped only once.”

    In “Those Angry Days,” Olson mentions several propaganda tricks the British played, including circulating a map and another German document that FDR mentioned in a fireside chat. The map purported to show German plans to invade US through South America; the doc said Germany would take over the USA and outlaw Christianity.

    On numerous occasions, those seeking to advance the interventionist agenda warned, “If Britain falls, western civilization as we know it will be destroyed.” Hell, Churchill used another variant of the phrase in his stump speeches: “Britain alone remains to preserve Christian civilization.” Time magazine carried an extended article, with graphs and pictures, of the German conquest of USA, including German troops and tanks from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. Speakers routinely spoke of “Germans invading Manhattan.”

    Shades of Nuttyyahoo warning Americans that “very soon” Iran will have missiles that can reach New York. Nuttyyahoo issued this warning on the Charlie Rose show last week, and also in an appearance before a House subcommittee in September 2002. Incidentally, in the Sept. 2002 appearance, Nutcase mentioned the same Hollywood plot that he did on Charlie Rose –about a man threatening a woman with a knife (gun?) etc. In the 2002 iteration, he got totally wrapped up in recounting the fantasy; Dennis Kucinich summoned all his patience to call the PM back to reality: “You know how much I respect you, Mr. PM, but do you have evidence?”

    The point is, we have seen this movie before, and before and before. It did not turn out well. How many more times are we going to get sucked into this whirlpool of hysteria and lies?

    = = =

    James wrote:

    “Many of those who pushed FDR toward American participation in the Second World War, feared that the US would be faced with war with Germany in future, without help from Soviet Union. Or Britain, ptentially.”

    Last item first — re Soviet Union:
    1. Woodrow Wilson tried to destroy Bolshevism in 1918-1919. see “When the United States Invaded Russia,” by Prof. Carl Richard http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Invade SPOILER ALERT: the plan backfired: US attempted to motivate Russians to rebel against Bolshevics, but Russians perceived invaders as Czarists; they joined with Bolshevics to repel invaders!

    2. in 1938 Herbert Hoover learned directly from Hitler, with consensus assessment from multiple diplomatic sources in Europe including Neville Chamberlain, that Hitler had three items on his agenda:
    –roll back Versailles
    –regain German territory
    –destroy Bolshevism
    Hoover — and Chamberlain — agreed that Hitler and Stalin should be permitted to exhaust each other; this would usher in a century of peace in Europe.

    3. After FDR and Churchill embraced Stalin — “Uncle Joe,” who carried out the zionist and Churchillian quest to lay waste to Germany, by 1946, Churchill set himself up as the anti-Stalinist, with his Iron Curtain speech in Fulton, Missouri.

    4. Every American president from Wilson to Truman to Reagan to George H Bush has been motivated by anti-Russianism.

    Had the US allowed Hitler and Stalin to duke it out, as Hoover recommended, the world would have been saved 85 years of war and suffering.

    re “fear of Germany” —

    THAT FEAR was artificially generated. In “Unnecessary War” Patrick Buchanan argues this compellingly: Churchill could have had an honorable peace with Germany; he did not want peace, any more than Nuttyyahoo wants peace. Churchill needed war for his own ego; for his financial situation; and to sustain and expand British empire which was threatened by competition from a more sophisticated and industrially developed Germany — much the same reasons Bibi needs a constant state of war, as you cite below —

    “Today, many of those who try to prevent Obama from improving relations between the US and Iran, do so in order to enable Israel to continue its illegal colonisation of the West Bank.”

    Indeed.

    Where are we today?

    By contrast, the US needs to be concerned about the insane Israeli colonisation programme in the WB, and that is what many who push for war with Iran, or continued bad relations, want to prevent.

    Colonisation of Palestine by zionists was at the center of it all from the beginning — or at least from 1917, when Chaim Weizmann placed his bet on Britain to win a war the spoils of which included the Ottoman empire, and Palestine.

  322. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Germany would have crushed the Soviet Union, if it had not attacked Britain and the British made a seaparate peace. Then what?

    Wilson refused to take out the Bosheviks, when he had the army at hand (in France, at end of 1918). King George V tried to convince Wilson to do it.

    Are you arguing that the need today is to get rid of Israel?

  323. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    Who “is going to be in power” if Iran attacks the US? Hillary Clinton?

  324. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    You apparently still are unable to grasp the fact China and Russia want Iran to make a deal with P5+1.

  325. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Was Czechoslovakia a “part of former German territory” that Hitler wanted to reclaim?

  326. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    I am not confused. I am well aware that much of the ISRAEL LOBBY would like to take out the Iranian gov’t. Some Gulf Arabs feel the same way.

    But, that is not Obama’s current programme. In my view. And I am not confused.

    You appear to believe that since some powerful groups etc want Iranian gov’t taken out, that authomatically becomes White House policy.

  327. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    I agree entirely with Jim Baker that Obama has made it clear beyond question, that Iran will not be allowed to build nukes.

    Netanyahu claims Obama might allow Iran to build nukes. You do too. You both are wrong.

  328. Smith says:

    Good cop, Bad cop / Stick and carrot: Congress is the elephant at the negotiating table: http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-us-iran-20131005,0,79020.story

  329. Smith says:

    Market Research: Iran’s pharmaceutical market will become increasingly reliant on pharmaceutical imports over the next decade. In light of ongoing trade sanctions, increasing import reliance puts Iran at significant risk of long-term medicine shortages. Uptake of medicines in the short-term is further risked by currency depreciation and hyperinflation of local medicine prices: http://www.usprwire.com/Detailed/Health_Wellbeing/_Iran_Pharmaceuticals_Healthcare_Report_Q4_2013_is_now_available_at_Fast_Market_Research_317887.shtml

    Such a shame. Instead of making a law that allows for reverse engineering and production of medicines, instead of pouring money into R&D and facilitating production of APIs’, Iran is going to be more dependent on importation of APIs’. Blaming the sanctions is really laughable with such policies that self inflict damage.

  330. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says: October 5, 2013 at 6:17 pm

    Touche, James.

    Exactly how does that speak to Britain’s treaty to defend Poland — a treaty that Britain could not and did not honor?

  331. fiorangela says:

    testing

  332. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says:
    October 5, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    “I agree entirely with Jim Baker that Obama has made it clear beyond question, that Iran will not be allowed to build nukes.

    Netanyahu claims Obama might allow Iran to build nukes. You do too. You both are wrong.”

    Which of these personages has as his middle name RULE OF LAW?

    – – –

    It seems quaint, but the Watergate era was a very anxious time. After Nixon resigned and Ford became president, he spoke to the nation and said, “Our Constitution works; We are a nation of laws and not of men.”

    Did James Baker change that, or Obama, or Netanyahu, such that THEY determine what another sovereign nation may and what may not do?

  333. fyi says:

    Smith says:
    October 5, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    10 universities are now producing various drugs.

  334. Don Bacon says:

    Smith says:
    October 5, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    Congress is the elephant at the negotiating table

    I told you that two days ago. Wake up!
    October 3, 2013 at 10:29 am

  335. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 5, 2013 at 8:54 pm

    Unfortunately most of those “various drugs” are actually made from imported APIs’ (Active Pharmaceutical Ingredients). Say, they import ciprofloxacin hydrochloride or mycophenolate mofetil from China or Switzerland and then make tablets of them. Out of some 500 essential medicines, Iran imports 97% of their APIs’s. My point was to go towards R&D for their local production as India and others have done. The non-biologic medicines which are basically most of the drugs are going to be easy. The difficult part is to produce the biologics which ironically Iran is actually good at manufacturing the later category because of investments made in the field both before and after the revolution. But since most meds are non-biologics and Iran does not produce their API’s, there is always shortage of meds in Iran.

  336. Smith says:

    Don Bacon says:
    October 5, 2013 at 9:31 pm

    I already know. If I link something here, it does not mean that I did not know about it. Go back and read my comments and see for yourself.

    Sanctions will never be lifted, until Iran does not become a proper nuclear armed super power in the world. These sanctions are preparations for white man’s war on Iran. No matter how they rationalize or color them.

    The recent talks are also deceptions to buy time for white man and his coming war since he is busy else where right now and is regrouping and rearming itself after its wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Somalia etc etc.

    It is time that you wake up. Only nuclear weapons confer upon a nation a deterrence strong enough to prevent the white man from going psycho.

  337. Sineva says:

    James Canning says:
    October 5, 2013 at 1:36 pm
    Thats the whole point of deterrence james,it deters potential aggressors from rolling the dice simply because the risks are too great and the payoff too small,and iran can do far more than simply inflict economic damage on the global economy,tho under the current global economic circumstances I think that is probably enough to make the us think twice,now throw in the worst case scenario:a blockade of the gulf,iran inflicts substantial damage on regional us military assets and the us fails to destroy irans nuclear capability leaving iran with the perfect excuse to either leave the npt or leave and build the bomb.So you can see that iran is not just limited to a blockade,it has three areas of deterrence,us military assets,the gulf and the most potent of all the nuclear option[s].So how about it james,would you be willing to roll the dice under those circumstances?,you might get lucky,but either way war with iran is going to be very expensive

  338. Sineva says:

    James Canning says:
    October 5, 2013 at 1:28 pm
    James thats as ridiculous as saying that the apartheid homelands[bantustans] were states,certainly what exists today in palestine and what israel is prepared to accept bears far more resemblance to those than it does any actual state I`ve ever heard of,all I can say james is that its extremely fortunate for the blacks in SA that they didnt listen to people like you

  339. Karl.. says:

    Smith

    October 6, 2013 at 1:04 am

    Stupid article, why ask such an obvious question as the author does, of course its Israel.

  340. Karl.. says:

    James

    Well yes you are confused, now again you say that obama doesnt want regime change.

  341. BiBiJon says:

    AP Interview
    ===========

    Obama: “Well, here’s what we know: He was not necessarily the preferred candidate of some of the ruling clerics when he initially threw his hat into the ring. He won pretty decisively.

    So what we know is, is that in the Iranian population at least, there is a genuine interest in moving in a new direction. Their economy has been crippled by international sanctions that were put in place because Iran had not been following international guidelines, and had behaved in ways that made a lot of people feel they were pursuing a nuclear weapon.

    I think Rouhani has staked his position on the idea that he can improve relations with the rest of the world. And so far, he’s been saying a lot of the right things. And the question now is, can he follow through? The way the Iranian system works, he’s not the only decision maker — he’s not even the ultimate decision maker.

    But if in fact he is able to present a credible plan that says Iran is pursuing peaceful nuclear energy but we’re not pursuing nuclear weapons, and we are willing to be part of a internationally verified structure so that all other countries in the world know they are not pursuing nuclear weapons, then, in fact, they can improve relations, improve their economy. And we should test that.”

    Watch http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/2013/10/05/2927315/

    Again, it seems obvious (to me) that credible assurances have been given by both sides a priori, to presage success at the negotiating table. US’ bottom line, and the limits of Iran’s flexibility have already been agreed to through back channel contacts.

    Iran will be well-served by disambiguating her position. Either withdraw from NPT, or sign/implement the Additional Protocol. The latter in and by itself will clinch the deal with the US, methinks. plans for an international-consortium-owned fuel fabricating plant with a binding contract to receive supplies equal to Iran’s enrichment capacity will be the window dressing to assuage remaining what-aboutisms regarding ‘stock piles’. Such a plant can start work within weeks by opening a storage facility to receive the supplies.

  342. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn

    So when Obama keep warmongering against Iran and make more lies (like the latests ‘Iran is 1 year away from a bomb’ that means they have a secret deal? Come on man, I had higher thoughts about you.

  343. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 6, 2013 at 7:21 am

    Admiration is mutual. Right on Karl.

    ‘One year away from a bomb,’ is in fact an acknowledgment that the horse has already left the barn. Director of national intelligence, James Clapper, on March 12, 2013 has stated “Iran has the scientific, technical, and industrial capacity to eventually produce nuclear weapons.” See http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/130312/clapper.pdf

    I do not regard such statements by Clapper, or Obama as “warmongering.” They are saying the only solution is ‘political.’ They are saying Prevention, preemption are is too late.

  344. Rehmat says:

    On September 30, 2013, the Weekly Standard magazine published Bill Kristol’s hateful rant against Barack Obama and Hassan Rouhani. Kristol called Rouhani deceitful and accused Obama of retreating from his earlier tough stand against Iran. He warned Obama that “smaller retreats leads to larger ones”. Kristol whines that Obama should have treated Rohani like Winston Churchill treated Hitler and Mussolini in the 1940s.

    At the end of his hasbara crap, Kristol claimed that Obama being defeated by Rouhani’s charm, leaves Netanyahu to save the West from Iran.

    “It is a strange course of events, heavy with historical irony, that has made the prime minister of Israel for now the leader of the West. But irony is better than tragedy,” wrote Kristol.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/10/06/bill-kristol-only-bibi-can-save-the-west/

  345. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn

    Where do they say that the solution is only political? Where do they say prevention and preemptions are too late?

    Just as when Netanyahu lie when he say that Iran will have nukes in 6 months so does Obama when he say they will have it in 1 year.

  346. Photi says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 6, 2013 at 8:18 am

    Karl, when Obama says ‘Iran is a year away from the bomb’ i think he means that if Iran were to make the decision today to start building a bomb, they could complete the task in one year. To me it is obvious Obama does not want a war with Iran, but, as the Leveretts have repeatedly pointed out, until the US changes its strategy of domination/pursuit of hegemony in the region, it does not matter what the US president wants, and it does not even matter who he is. The *system* established by the strategy is on a trajectory towards war, and thus far, Obama has not shown himself willing to do what the Leveretts have been telling him he needs to do to stop the war.

  347. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn

    Yes that is what he mean (” if Iran were to make the decision”) but he doesnt even say that word “IF” because hes a warmonger and liar.

    Of course it matters what he say, these false accusations just scare people that Iran is building nukes and more pressure such as sanctions are needed. What will obama say in 11 months? What will he do?

    Funny how Obama doesnt want war as you claim, hes actions throughout the middle east and now the latest, in Somalia and Libya prove his a real warmonger.

    If Obama doesnt want war with Iran I say that Bush didnt want to have any war with Iraq and Afghanistan.

  348. Photi says:

    *and ‘one year to the bomb’ also assumes the presence of no mitigating factors, like an Israeli strike on Iran or a build-up of the US Navy some miles off the coast of Iran. Given all the attention on Iran, it seems impossible for Iran to develop the bomb without being detected early on. While i personally do not believe Iran would be a threat even with the bomb, the Israelis seems quite convinced that their own bombs are the key to their power and will destroy the world to keep their regional monopoly.

    I hate to repeat the threat, as clearly the ‘threat’ is part of the asinine US strategy, but the calculation does need to address the threat, which fyi and Smith (and you Karl) do not seem wont to do.

  349. nico says:

    Rehmat says:
    October 6, 2013 at 8:16 am

    “At the end of his hasbara crap, Kristol claimed that Obama being defeated by Rouhani’s charm, leaves Netanyahu to save the West from Iran.”

    Mr Kritol is fully correct.
    I mean as per his supremacist and racist philiosophy and belief.
    As stated to Mr Canning, such racist thugs want to prosper at the expense if others.
    They are deeply immoral.
    Letting Iran off the hook and respecting Iran sovereign right and progress is against Mr Kristol and other right wing scums. That is their clash of civilization belief and judeo-protestant supremacism.
    By doing so, Iran would be officialized and recognized strategic independent a d powerfull state.
    And one of the few truly independent world power. In par with Russia and China regarding its independence.
    More powefull than European state or Israel. Thise ones not being truly independent from US.
    (Remember UE referundum in UK vetoed by the US, isn’t it Mr Canning ?).

    But the right wing are not the worst.
    I mean, at least the right wibg is intellectually honest.
    Like with their PNAC project they recognize their own supremacist goals.

    No the worst of all are the kind of Mr Canning leftist exceptionnalist.
    The left wing is as much racist and supremacist.
    But on top of that they are exceptionalist and they buy in their own ideological garbages of lies and delusion.
    This is exactely the same in western coyntry as in Israel.
    And the Anti-zionist Gilad Atzmon described well in hus books howthe leftist are nevrotic and pathologic liars.
    The leftists like Mr Canning have a mental illness.
    They build up some rationale about nukes and threat and existential issue.
    They use human right and other fraudulent excuse to justify their criminal acts.
    And on top of that they believe it !!! Their own propaganda…
    They have a problem to recognize their deeply immoral nature and policies. And their mental illness is coming from their difficulty to reconcile their immoral acts and behaviour with their would be, totally imagined and farcical progressive belief.
    Such cognitive dissonance make them utter idiot impossible to communicate with.
    As they are unable to reconcile facts with their imagined world view of themself, they are utterly incapable of logic.
    They forward escape, invent excuses, use sophism.

    Looks like the description of somebody on this site …?
    At the end of the day such exceptionalist leftist is as much a supremacist as the right wing in their dealing and policies. But with mental illness, delusion and lies in addition of that.

    The first and foremost issue is that it should be recognized that the US policies in the ME are deeply immoral and criminal.
    It should be recognized then that such policies have their origin first in supremacism.
    Then only something good could come out of it.

    But as has been said time and again on this site the US pseudo democracy is at such degenerate and sorry state that no cure will come short of internal collapse.

    And surely Mr Canning and co are proof that no cure is to be expected otherwise. As they are totally unable to comprehend a acknowledege that the issue is their own degenerate state.

  350. Photi says:

    The threat of “annihilation” was conceivable even in the 1980s, and had Iran chose to pursue nuclear weapons then (which they could have done much more secretly then than now; still the Iranians and Ayatollah Khomeini chose not to pursue them) they would have had them by now and all this bluster would be non-existent. But even then as now, the ultimate decision not to pursue the weapons is a decision based on the human understanding of God and the Qur’an, not on any Western threat.

    “Mutually Assured Destruction” and its supposed defensive value is a concept UNDERSTOOD and REJECTED by the Leaders of Iran many, many years ago. The “threat,” both current and past, is weighed against Islamic principles and in the face of those principles, the “threat” while real is not enough to cause Iran to pursue these weapons. Western pundits may consider this reasoning to be “stupid” based on their own belief in the value of MAD, but their own narcissism aside, THEY and their MAD reasoning do not matter.

  351. Karl.. says:

    Photi

    If your enemy think MAD is a working theory, so should you.

  352. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    BibiJon,

    Majles has already announced that it will not ratify additional protocol.

  353. Photi says:

    As i believe the President of Iran recently said, ‘There are no right hands for these wrong weapons.’

    Which is the entire point of the Supreme Leader’s fatwa.

    Yes, the “threat” is credible, so what value is it for Iran to pursue weapons they do not want but weapons nonetheless which will most assuredly bring about a quite destructive war? I have no doubt the Iranians would ultimately prevail in this war, but it is all the events that transpire before “ultimately” which we are all trying to avoid. The price is not worth it to anyone, not even Israel–especially not Israel.

  354. thecelticinme says:

    Did any of you listen to the guy from CFR on C-Span this morning? I cannot call his view of things a scholarly understanding of the situation in the ME. IF you take the time to listen to the comments of the callers on the show this morning, you will find several attempts to point out more than a few reasons why a country like Iran desires to have understanding in the area of nuclear physics and harnessing the energy of the atom. But I will limit my actual comment to this one statement the CFR Director made: “Israel is not a source of instability in the ME.” My question is this: Since its inception in 1948, has the presence of Israel brought more stability to the ME or less? I cannot understand how one cannot say it has made the region anything but stable. So, is Israel a source of stability in the region or is it not? I wonder why the conversation always ends up being about Israel. The topic of the segment was Syria and Iran and all the guys does is stand up for the views of US and Israel. And he called CFR a bipartisan organization, with Reps and Dems. Big deal. They all think alike and support each others views. No objectivity there.

  355. Unknown Unknowns says:

    Baradar-e Basiji jan:

    Yes. The criterion that separates the men from the boys is whether or not one defers to one’s “betters”, to use the ahl-e mashang word. All I do whenever I come accross this type of refractory mindset is to ask: “Aqa, shoma emamin ya ma’mum?” If they accept the dichotomy, they are screwed; and if they reject that way of framing the issue, they are outside the pale of Shi’a Islam.

    Case closed, Agent Smithy Pants.

  356. Unknown Unknowns says:

    Don’t miss the reigning Asia champions, Iran, defend their title against Korea in the final of the 17th bi-annual Asian Volleyball Championship. Happening in about an hour. (Iran has already beat Korea in the preliminary rounds of this same competition, and is ranked higher than Korea, so it should be a slam dunk, inshallah.)

  357. M.Ali says:

    I am reading the book, “The Great Railway Bazaar” publised in 1975, about the author travelling throughout Asia by train.

    One of the sections is about Tehran, which was during Shah’s time, and when I read it, it just makes me incredibly glad that I wasn’t brought up during Shah’s time. It seems Tehran was everything I hate about certain Asian countries.

    Teheran, a boom town grafted on to a village, is a place of no antiquity and little interest, unless one has a particular fascination for bad driving and a traffic situation twenty times worse than New York’s. There is talk of building a subway system, but the plumbing in Teheran is of the village variety; the sewage is pumped into the ground beneath each building, so the process of tunnelling would very likely produce a cholera epidemic of gigantic proportions. One man I met verified this by claiming that you had to dig down only ten feet anywhere in the city and you would strike sewage; in a few years it would be five.

    In spite of its size and apparent newness it retains the most obnoxious features of a bazaar, as Dallas does, and Teheran has all the qualities of that oil-rich Texas city: the spurious glamour, the dust and heat, the taste for plastic, the evidence of cash. The women are lovely; they skitter around holding other women’s hands – even the most chic – or else they are bent sideways, on the arm of a small shrouded granny. Wealth has allowed the Iranian little except the single excess of being overdressed; indeed, the freezing air conditioning seems to be designed for no other purpose than permitting rich Iranians to wear fashionable English clothes, for which they have a special fondness. There is about this decadence a peculiar absence of the physical that begins to look uncivilized in the most limiting way. Women are seldom seen with men; there are few couples, no lovers, and at dusk Teheran becomes a city of males, prowling in groups or loitering. The bars are exclusively male; the men drink in expensive suits, continually searching the room with anxious eyes, as if in expectation of a woman. But there are no women, and the lugubrious alternatives to sex are apparent: the film posters showing fat Persian girls in shortie pyjamas; nightclubs with belly dancers, strippers, kick lines, and comedians in ridiculous hats whose every Farsi joke is a reference to the sex the patrons are denied. Money pulls the Iranian in one direction, religion drags him in another, and the result is a stupid starved creature for whom woman is only meat. Thus spake Zarathustra: an ugly monomaniac with a diamond tiara, who calls himself ‘The King of Kings’, is their answer to government, a firing squad their answer to law.

  358. BiBiJon says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    October 6, 2013 at 9:29 am

    “Majles has already announced that it will not ratify additional protocol.”

    Implementation (provisionally) without ratification is the right thing to do, until further trust is established.

    Karl.. says:
    October 6, 2013 at 8:58 am

    “Of course it matters what he say, these false accusations just scare people that Iran is building nukes and more pressure such as sanctions are needed. What will obama say in 11 months? What will he do?”

    I refer you to the part Obama says what the contours of a deal would look like. He is setting the bar rather low, making an agreement very possible.

    “Funny how Obama doesnt want war as you claim, hes actions throughout the middle east and now the latest, in Somalia and Libya prove his a real warmonger.”

    War for war’s sakes is nonsense. What is the objective? Can 90% of that objective be achieved at 10% of the risks/costs of war, through other means? I regard answers like ‘they are degenerate, and incapable of rational thought’, ‘religious war’, etc. as a ‘get of jail free card’; it is too comfortable a way to conduct debate.

  359. Fiorangela says:

    William Jefferson Clinton, on the occasion of the Gingrich government shutdown

    “America can never accept under pressure what it would not accept under free and open debate.”

  360. Karl.. says:

    Bibijohn

    Ok, what are these contours? Could you quote?

  361. Fiorangela says:

    Netanyahu has his surrogates all over the media.

    Stewart Patrick, Council on Foreign Relations, on C Span Washington Journal Sunday Oct 7 2013 http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/NGener

    “Whether Rouhani is acting with the approval of the supreme leader will have to be tested. And the way to test it is through negotiations and diplomacy. That will play out in meetings later in October. They will be multilateral — with Britain, France, Germany, Russia. But the major talks will have to take place between the Iranians and the United States. They will try to agree on a final agreement or at least the outlines of a final agreement which would involve a trade-off between constraints on the nuclear program in Iran on the one hand, with monitoring, and relaxation of sanctions.

    Then the debate will be …what is the sequencing and how much control over this allegedly peaceful program is going to be enough for the Israelis. Because their time frame is shorter than ours.”

  362. Smith says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 6, 2013 at 3:24 am

    Yes, no doubt. But what can you expect of British?

  363. Fiorangela says:

    Stewart Patrick is the nth iteration of that legion of “mediocre intellects” [h/t Theodor Herzl in der Judenstaat that emerge from the cocoon of their PhD programs into the real world where they quickly exchange their soul and their sheepskin for the sake of a comfie sinecure.

    To mark time between gigs carrying water for the paymaster, Patrick, an Oxford product, unearthed his high school composition books and published an article on Machiavelli — no doubt, he felt he offered an earth-shaking new perspective.

    Patrick closed his opus with this line:

    “[I]n political life, it is more frequently the sinners than the saints that rise to power and cling to their positions.”

    When I was a kid, my parents taught me that cream rises to the top.

    In his performance in reciting Tel Aviv’s talking points on C Span, Patrick displayed his willingness to dive deep to join the bottom feeders.

  364. nico says:

    http://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/israel-not-opposed-iran-us-talks-pm-113020412.html

    “Netanyahu further said that while Iran claims it’s aiming to reach nuclear capabilities for peaceful purposes, there are countries achieving the same capabilities “without even one centrifuge” and without uranium enrichment.
    “Whoever doesn’t want fissionable material and nuclear bomb doesn’t insist on enrichment… therefore Iran… must not be allowed to have enrichment capability. This is the most important point,” Netanyahu said.”

    Nyahoo and Mr Canning are about the same page it seems.
    Ironic, while Mr Canning insist that the enemity xith Iran is due to jewwwws conspiracy, isn’t it ?

    Nyahoo says that Iran does not need enrichment at all, whike Iran is denied fuel and whatever civilian nuclear tech by the west.
    Mr Canning says that the unilateral Western sanctions (truly UK US led) were rightly caused by the Iran 20% enrichment. While the fuel for the purely civilian reactor was denied by Obama himself through lie and treachery (remember the famous letter).

    Difference on nuance ? So so…
    Difference on substance ? Absolutly not.

    The issue is that Mr Canning is a leftist exceptionalist and a crypto-supremacist.

    Mr Canning has no moral issue with Anglo supremacism.
    You know the so called unilateral moment.
    Unilateral moment / supremacism.
    Supremacism / unilateral moment…
    What is the difference other than soothing the Anglo moral sensitivity with “unilateral moment” term ?
    You know the same semantic warping and presstitute jargon just in order to brainwash the mass…
    Just like the Anglo American being “pioneer” and not “colonialist”.

    Well every body know that the US is a racist supremacist regime.
    And Mr Canning fully support that.
    But the powerfull has better name. The “unilateral power” is a better term for the exceptionalist.
    Sure unilateral is not a problem for them as they are the civilization and the force of good.
    You know unlike the 8 (irak, afghanistan, pakistan, sudan, syria, lybia, iran, ethyopia…) or so muslim countries attacked or destabilized by the west in just the last decade.

    There is no problem here for Mr Canning and the like othr than US idiocy.
    Mr Canning are you sure of that ? Just and only stupidity ? No supremacism and no racism ?

    However that exactly the substance of Putin editorial in the NYTand Rohani speech at the UN.

    No Mr Canning you have not the monopol of the civilization and moral.
    Your exceptionalism and cultural colonialism and the like of you are the problem.
    The west has NO right to impose its standard to others.

    Well yes the Anglo and the zionists are two arms of the same share.
    So no surprise that Mr Cameron, Mr Canning and Nyahoo to be in the same bed.

    And on top of that obviously Mr Canning by putting all fault on leewwwws is an antisemit.

  365. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    Let me say this again: Iran’s very large blunder was announcing intent to TREBLE production of 20% U.

    What possible reason would you give for this action? I do not say the enriching to 20 was in and of itself the problem, because American stupidity in effect forced Iran to begin enriching to 20.

  366. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    Russia and China apparently want Iran to stop enriching to 20. You time and again ignore this fact.

  367. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    I regard Netanyahu as one of the most dangeours people on the planet.

    You, and Netanyahu, (and Smith, and FYI) think that Obama might allow Iran to build nukes.

  368. James Canning says:

    Dangerous people (Netanyahu)

  369. James Canning says:

    thecelticine,

    You quote the CFR direcctor on NPR today: “Israel is not a source of instability in the ME.” Total rubbish. But this sort of rubbish is expected, and requred, from anyone heading the CFR.

  370. James Canning says:

    C-Span, not NPR.

  371. Karl.. says:

    James
    October 6, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    Please provide a source for this “fact”.

  372. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    Where on earth do you get the idea I am a “leftist”?

  373. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    I think Obama is sincere when he says the US does not seek “regime change” in Iran.

    Much of the Israel lobby does of course seek regime change in Iran. And some powerful Gulf Arabs do too. And MEK, obviously.

    Steve Walt said it was “insulting” to Iran for Obama to say he does not seek regmie change. True, perhaps, but Obama clearly needed to say it.

  374. fyi says:

    James Canning says:
    October 6, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    You are distorting my statements.

    I believe that Mr. Obama is incapable of reaching strategic understanding with Iran.

    I believe that the power to prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons if her leaders so decide does not exist in the International Arena.

    I believe that the United States and the European Union aim to destroy Iran, one way or another, like they did in Libya – lull Iranians into sleep with minor improvements in relations and pounce on them when the time is ripe.

    I believe that unless and until the US planners accept the consequences of their own war against Ira in 2003 – the chief among them the increased power of Iran, there will be no let up against Iran.

    Strategic negotiations with Iranians are possible, as I outlined in the previous thread, but it would require acceptance of Iran as a shadow nuclear-weapons state.

    Incremental approach to Iran will not work – the reality of a new state with strategic independence and depth and the corresponding alliance structure – a.k.a. Shia Crescent – is still being denied by Axis Powers, and Russia (but not by China).

    And since you seem to care about Palestine; know this: only war will liberate the Occupied Territories.

  375. fyi says:

    Smith says:
    October 5, 2013 at 9:52 pm

    Yes I completely agree; these are “deception” talks by both sides; Iranians know now with empirical certainty since the event subsequent to August 21 2013 that Axis Powers aim to destroy Iran.

    Axis Powers leaders know that Iranian leaders know that.

    So both sides are going through this charade since neither side is yet ready for war.

  376. Unknown Unknowns says:

    Congratulations to the Iranian volleyball team, Asian champions two championships in a row (2011 & 2013).

    Result against South Korea: 25-19, 25-22, 25-19.

  377. fyi says:

    Smith says:
    October 5, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    I did not know the details; thank you.

    The government had separated Iranians into the “in-people” and the “out-people” since its inception and proceeded to make many rich while starving others of capital – all the while milking the private sector (largely consisting of the “out-people”).

    Iranian government used the oil money to gloss over such distortions and thus created the various “mafias” that you had alluded to earlier.

    One should be grateful to the Axis Powers for their economic siege that is destroying the foundations of distorted economic policies of that past 35 years.

  378. Unknown Unknowns says:

    BiBiJon says, “Do you remember, do you recall? Do you have memory of anything at all?”

    Seems we our musical interests include Gabriel as well as Zappa :o) Excellent!

  379. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 6, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    That is true. But it is only a matter of time before the military machine of west is charged and ready to go; this time undoubtedly against Iran. And it is a big military machine. The biggest in human history.

  380. Fiorangela says:

    kooshy says:
    October 3, 2013 at 12:02 pm

    “I think he believes the only hope is a possible formulation for an end to hostilities, stepping to an understanding for a détente, while mutual trust can be restored.”

    I just re-read some notes on a talk Dan Joyner gave. Joyner said there is an arbitration clause in the IAEA Statute. He said “I would luuuuv, dearly love to represent a state in an arbitration with the IAEA on these issues.”

    Joyner had just analyzed the West’s and IAEA’s position on Iran wrt NPT and Comprehensive Safeguards Agreement, and Iran’s position on the same. Joyner argued that Iran’s position was more in conformity with the law of the Treaty.

    Wendy Sherman’s performance at Senate Foreign Relations suggested she knows enough about Treaty to be dangerous, but maybe not if confronted with someone who does not have to sort legal theory from a pile of Tel Aviv talking points.

    In any event, as Sen. Bob Corker said at the Senate hearing, US sanctions laws against Iran include far more than the nuclear issue. Before any sanctions relief could be forthcoming, Iran would have to
    –renounce terrorism
    –sever ties with Hezbollah
    –correct domestic human rights violations
    –tame all feral cats in Laleh park

    In Ephraim Sneh’s imaginings, Iran must be kept under punitive sanctions until it becomes a “secular democracy” – like Israel, wait, no, not Israel, like the US.

  381. fyi says:

    All:

    US-EU posture when and if diplomacy fails (this is from February of 2012)

    “There is an understanding in Europe that … if talks with Tehran fail, European countries would look at the conflict from a somewhat different context compared to Iraq.”

    http://www.gmfus.org/archives/iran-and-the-west-how-does-it-end-a-lunch-conversation-with-ambassador-dennis-ross/

    Make no mistakes in this; Axis Powers current posture means war with Iran at the most opportune moment for them.

  382. fyi says:

    All:

    US-EU posture when and if diplomacy fails (this is from February of 2012)

    “There is an understanding in Europe that … if talks with Tehran fail, European countries would look at the conflict from a somewhat different context compared to Iraq.”

    http://www.gmfus.org/archives/iran-and-the-west-how-does-it-end-a-lunch-conversation-with-ambassador-dennis-ross/

    Make no mistakes in this; Axis Powers current posture means war with Iran at the most opportune moment for them.

  383. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 6, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    Until and unless a bunch of corrupt to the core people either being friends of Taghoot then or basijis with their hypocrite “outward conformance to Islam” now destroy merit and and become managers of the nation, then these things are bound to happen.

    Take the example of Haj Muhammad Taqi Barkhordar, a industrialist genius who was forced to go home and give all that he had developed by hard work in the care of a few corrupt to the core basijis and sepahis who plundered and destroyed. This despite the fact that this guy was more Muslim and more Iranian than any of these corrupt basijis and sepahis can ever dream to become: http://yazdfarda.com/news/1392/06/36673.html

    This is the reason why Iran never reached its zenith of industrialization. The managers are all a bunch of liars. They lie to the people and to their nation. Over the past 20 years, we have been hearing that Iran made this medicine and that medicine but when push came to shove, it became apparent that all that was lie, and all the API’s were being imported.

    In a country where the industrialist genius gets a stick up his rear end and nepotism and kleptomaniacs takes over, then the situation becomes as it is. But now certain people in Iran have reached the conclusion that they need to defer such specialist tasks needing genius to their respective able minded specialists. Even some Iranian parliamentarian had asked to give back all that was stolen by the Islamic people from Haji Barkhordar to him and let him to take it forward. Of course hypocrites were and are against such measures. They want all the wealth for themselves and their children and friends. But alas it was too late. He had become too old and too heart broken. He died. Now these basijis have to answer him in the next world.

    I had read this epic, in which Hazrat Fatima passes away and one night comes to the dream of Hazrat Ali, asking him to return a needle she had borrowed from the neighbor before she had died since it is creating big problems for her in the eternal world. That was the daughter of the Prophet. These thieves will have to answer alot for the miseries they have caused the people of Iran.

  384. Smith says:

    Regime change and nuclear weapons from apratheid regime’s perspective: http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2013/10/131006_l39_analysis_israel_netanyahu.shtml

  385. fyi says:

    Smith says:
    October 6, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    The only effective recourse has been to the Revolutionary Court – the most uncorrupt court in Iran.

    I know of 2 separate occasions that Justice was done in that court.

    Yes, I agree with you; the government is not sufficiently Islamic – domestically US is more of an Islamic Government than Iran – no doubt.

    You might be familiar with the so-called Mr. Talab-e Sirjani case?

    The student of religious sciences who was whistle-blower regarding theft of public lands; exercising his Muslim duty to Promote Virtue and Oppose Vice?

    The Iranian authorities tried to silence him by jailing him; had he been harassing young women under the guise of Promoting Virtue and Opposing Vice they probably would have given him an award.

    Funny thing is, the lands in question almost certainly belonged to the Shrine of Imam Reza!

  386. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Do you want diplomacy to fail? You cite EU postion in event diplomacy fails.

  387. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Again, I think you are delusional in your contention Germany “wants to destroy Iran”. Absurd.

  388. fyi says:

    James Canning says:
    October 6, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    I am telling you that there is neither diplomatic nor military resolution to Iranian nuclear file.

    Diplomacy as alternative to war has not fail and will continue.

    Diplomacy as a path to resolution has failed and is finished.

    As to war:

    $ 2 billion a month with potential to transform the Middle East and World in ways very very unpalatable to Axis Powers.

  389. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    US leaders comprehend that Iran would be much stronger if there were no sanctions, and that there would be few sanctions if Iran did not give an appearance of trying to get closer to ability to build nukes quickly.

  390. fyi says:

    James Canning says:
    October 6, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    You have to be in Germany to sense how much they hate Islam – even in 1980s.

    An Islamic State, ipsi facto, is illegitimate to them are must be opposed or destroyed.

    Specially one which does not share in their idol – the semi-religion of Shoha and if fact calls it for what it is – an idol.

  391. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    For clarity, are you arguing that Iran would be attacked if it tries to build nukes, but you think the US would be unable to block production of nukes by Iran?

  392. fyi says:

    James Canning says:
    October 6, 2013 at 2:44 pm

    I do not believe that you personally know the minds of the US leaders.

    I base my conclusions on their statements and policies; destruction of Iran remains their goal.

    Now, I told you before, a US-Iran War, causing the death of 300,000 Iranians and destruction of order of 2 trillion US dollars is still preferable to a non-nuclear Iran; for a non-nuclear Iran will result in almost certain destruction of Iran as a coherent and unitary state in the coming decades.

    The position that you attribute to American leaders, even if reliable, would mean Iranian leaders risking the existence of their country and the attendant suffering and deaths of hundreds of thousands – perhaps millions – of Iranians and allied peoples.

    And for what?

    It will not happen.

    I have stated the steps that Axis Powers must – absolutely must – take if they want to move forward with Iran.

    There charade of diplomacy could be continued indefinitely and it is useful – Axis Powers can wait to replenish their resources for the time to attack Iran and Iranians can spend their efforts to neutralize the worst effects of the sanctions.

    In the mean time, God is Great, and he may induce some sanity in the minds of Axis Powers.

  393. fyi says:

    James Canning says:
    October 6, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    I am stating that the only way Axis Powers can prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons, should Iranian leaders determine that such weapons are essential to Iranian security and the allied peoples of the Shia Crescent, is to go to war with Iran and try to occupy her.

    The first obstacle to that is that EU will not provide the foot soldiers for that and US does not have them – will take several years to train the millions needed for that.

    The second obstacle is that even though Russia wishes to diminish Iran, once Axis Powers commence their attacks on Iran for purpose of occupying her; she will be forced to resupply Iran on a massive scale.

    At that point, Axis Powers have to attack Russian assets across in the Caspian Sea and else where, thus causing a major war with no end in sight.

    This is all understood except by a certain Mr. James Canning who lives in a cocoon in San Francisco.

  394. Karl.. says:

    James

    James
    October 6, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    Again, source please.

  395. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 6, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    That is such a shame.

    Not only the American government but also many European governments, Japanese government, Australian government etc etc.

    Nowadays, any public and government office you visit in Iran, you have to pay bribes. It is right in the open now and everyone knows. It is much much worse than the era of taghoot now. There is no exception. There is no concept of dignity and right of citizen both in morality and law of the nation. It is no more even the money. Sometimes the bribe can be sex/booze/drugs etc etc. It is becoming more and more prevalent.

  396. fyi says:

    All:

    Israeli journalist Ronen Bergman has described the likely operations against Iran as including:
    • the bombing of two transformers at the Natanz nuclear facilities in 2006;
    • the downing of three Revolutionary Guards airplanes between 2006 and 2007;
    • two computer viruses that penetrated uranium enrichment infrastructures throughout the country, damaging numerous centrifuges;
    • the asphyxiation of a nuclear scientists working at the Isfahan uranium plant in 2007;
    • the death by bombing of a particle physicist in January 2010;
    • the car-bombing of senior nuclear figures in November 2010;
    • the shooting of a nuclear physicist and researcher for Iran’s Atomic Energy Organization in July 2011;
    • the bombing of a Revolutionary Guards base close to Tehran, which killed the head of the Guards’ missile development division in November 2011; and
    • the killing by a limpet mine of the 32-year-old deputy director of the Natanz facility as he drove to a laboratory in downtown Tehran in January 2012.

    War by other means.

  397. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I have said before, and I will say it again, that I very much doubt Obama would be so stupid as to try to occupy Iran.

    The real question is whether Iran is willing to make a deal that Obama can accept. In my view.

    Russia does not want Iran to build nukes. Chances Russia would help Iran to do so are zero. In my view.

  398. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Very recently I linked a piece for you, from Trend.az, dating from several months ago. Saying Russia wants Iran to stop enriching to 20. China prefers on the whole to let Russia speak for China, in effect, on this issue.

  399. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I can assure you most German businessmen would like to be able to do deals with Iran. Under its current government.

  400. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Obama’s thinking regarding Iran is not difficult to discern. It helps if one reads newspapers with reporters able to talk to key officials, Obama aides in the White House, etc.

  401. Karl.. says:

    James

    No you havent linked to any trend.az site saying that China and Russia are against 20%, second time give me a source.

  402. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Daily Star (Lebanon) report Oct 6 said P5+1 want Iran to stop enriching to 20 percent. Zarif said Oct 5 that Iran wanted a new proposal from P5+1.

  403. Fiorangela says:

    hoo wee

    Obama is in a tight spot

    gotta make nice with Iran to get US out of Afghanistan

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2013/10/impasse-with-afghanistan-raises-prospect-of-total-us-withdrawal-in-2014-ny-times.html

    gotta play nasty with Iran or Netanyahu’s head will explode.

    go for the head.

  404. Karl.. says:

    James

    I ask for a source, a link.

  405. James Canning says:

    The new Pew survey of American Jews reports that 25% enjoy a household income of more than $150,000 per year. This is three times the rate of the US population as a whole.

  406. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Do you have access to Google? Daily Star report was fourth item, under “p5+1 talks”. A moment ago. It was #1 earlier Oct 6. Six Powers want Iran to stop enriching to 20. No secret here.

  407. Karl.. says:

    James

    Great so give me a link to that.

  408. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says:
    October 6, 2013 at 5:26 pm

    James, is there a comparable survey of Irish Catholics in America? How about Chinese Buddhists in USA? Turkish American Muslims? Viet Namese American Daoists?

    If not, why not?

  409. M.Ali says:

    So, we are back to posts about how shitty Iran nowadays is, from Iranian Defenders, Smith and Fyi.

    I repeat again, with Iranian friends like these, who needs western enemies?

  410. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Interesting questions, even if possibly facetious. I suppose the other communities do not pose potential for the same sort of implied question, that I assume underpins the Pew survey of American Jews.

  411. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Apparently rate of marriage to non-Jews, for non-Orthodox American Jews born after 1980, is 79 percent. Total assimilation, essentially.

  412. fyi says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 6, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    Not at all; I am exercising my religious duty – albeit from a rather safe distance – to Promote Virtue and Oppose Vice.

    I recommend you do the same.

    But while we are on this topic, I would like to point out this duty, as envisioned in the Quran, is not legally developed in any way, shape or form anywhere in Islamic Tradition.

    To whit, its “hodood”/limits, its domain, its prerequisites, in post facto conditions, its invariants, the conditions and qualifications of the person who performs it are not defined in Iranian Laws.

    In fact, I go further and state a challenge: how is that religious duty is to be exercised against the state – that is, when the state is promoting Vice?

    What are the legal codes that define the conditions and methods of Opposing Vice in an Islamic Polity where the state is perceived to be promoting Vice; say the Lie by bestowing fake titles and sinecure on government officials?

  413. fyi says:

    Fiorangela says:
    October 6, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    Iran cannot do much to help the situation in Afghanistan and won’t at any rate.

    The Iranians have got Herat and the rest is probably left to Pakistan and Taliban.

    As long as Taliban leave Eastern Iran alone, Iranians do not care who rules in Kabul; at any rate, they have no power to do much about it.

  414. Don Bacon says:

    Calling this process “diplomacy” is a stretch. The
    E3/EU+3 have presented a “confidence building proposal” which if Iran complies would result in limited relief from United States and European Union sanctions on trade in gold and precious metals and petrochemical sales, the licensing of US repairs to Iran civilian aircraft; as well as to impose no new UN or EU sanctions.

    Iran FM Zarif has said that the terms offered before Hassan Rouhani was elected president were now “history” and that a “new approach” was needed. Catherine Ashton has indicated that the “5+1” will not present any new package beyond what was offered.

    Almaty Confidence Building Proposal
    Iran would undertake the following voluntary measures: . . .
    http://backchannel.al-monitor.com/index.php/2013/06/5444/p51-almaty-confidence-building-proposal-to-iran/#more-5444

  415. fyi says:

    Don Bacon says:
    October 6, 2013 at 7:36 pm

    Mr. Zarif had to disabuse the Axis Powers of their notion that Iran was under duress and ready to fold.

  416. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says: October 6, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    “I suppose the other communities do not pose potential for the same sort of implied question, that I assume underpins the Pew survey of American Jews.”

    I see.

  417. Fiorangela says:

    fyi says:
    October 6, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    fyi, if assistance with Afghanistan brought to Iran some greater measure of control over drug traffic, then would Iran assist?

  418. Don Bacon says:

    from trend.az, Sep 17, 2013
    Afghan businesses consider Chabahar port as best path for exports
    Afghan businesses believe that the Iranian port city of Chabahar is the best route for exporting goods from their country.

    The first cargo of Afghan goods was exported to India via Chabahar port two months ago, the Fars News Agency reported. The businesses now say Iran’s Chabahar port is a more suitable path to export goods to India compared to Pakistan’s Karachi port.

    They believe using Chabahar is profitable for them and will help Afghanistan’s economy to flourish. Afghanistan’s Ambassador to Tehran said in July that the Iranian port city of Chabahar is the best path for trade between Iran, Afghanistan and India.

    “Afghanistan is negotiating with its biggest trade partner India to use Iran’s Chabahar port’s potential for Kabul-New Delhi trading,” the Fars News Agency quoted Nasir Ahmad Noor as saying.
    http://en.trend.az/regions/iran/2191011.html

  419. Don Bacon says:

    The last thing any politician wants is to be made to look ridiculous.

    TEHRAN, Oct 6 — Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel tried to take his campaign against the Iranian leadership to Iran’s young population last week, saying that if they were truly free, they would be able to wear jeans, listen to Western music and participate in free elections.

    The problem is that Iranians do wear jeans and manage to listen to whatever music they want to listen to, just like people almost anywhere,. . .Mr. Netanyahu’s effort at outreach backfired, as Twitter lit up Sunday with retorts.

    “Netanyahu, here are my #Jeans and #Western music,” wrote a user named Sallar, posting a picture of his jeans and his iPad showing a pop album cover, and adding an insult to the prime minister’s intelligence. . . .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/07/world/middleeast/netanyahu-ridiculed-after-an-appeal-to-iranian-youth.html

  420. Smith says:

    Fiorangela says:
    October 6, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    The question is funny and though not directed at me, I would like to have some say on it (I would also eagerly for fyi’s answer). If that means anything.

    * Taliban had almost finished off the drug problem in Afghanistan by the last year of their rule. US promoted it after invading the country. In fact Russian officials have accused US/UK of doing this on purpose in order to destroy the youths of Russia (and Iran). US wants a thriving drug trade there, so they would never help Iran with that. A few years ago the Americans had gone to great length to make sure that Iran’s anti-narcotic force does not get any procurement of communication gear, night vision goggles, long range surveillance cameras, sniper rifles etc etc in order to cripple it. On the other hand, they were arming the drug smugglers to the teeth, and it is on record that Iran’s chief of anti-narcotic force had admitted that the drug smugglers from across border were better equipped and armed than the Iranian force.

    * Iran once assisted US in Afghanistan. Greatly. Even poured in financial and technical help for reconstruction of a country that had been destroyed by a game between US and USSR. It helped to form a government there. What it got in return was a hard slap in the face and a kick in the butt.

    * US does not need any “help” in Afghanistan. It is the official policy of US to promote wahabism in the region. And as some Pakistani commentators and analysts have said, it is the ultimate goal of US mission there (contrary to popular media). It has already been achieved. All things are going as plan for The Corporation.

    * Time ago, I used to watch/listen to Afghan Radio/TV channels. Most funded by US. They were broadcasting hate, sectarianism and rebellion against Iran. The amount of anti-Iranian hatred being promoted on those channels was evil. They used to even bring in Baluch terrorists as guests on those channel and tell Afghans that Iran is slaughtering Sunnis and they should rise up against Iran. That has been 12 years now. Afghans being bombarded by American propaganda against Iran.

    * Then what good Iran was doing in Afghanistan was promoted by American media as evil. If Iran was building a road, it was portrayed as evil both inside Afghanistan and outside. When Iran installed an industrial city in Afghanistan it was portrayed as the most evil act. If Iran was building railway, if Iran was building electricity transmission lines, etc etc.

    * Iran’s interest in Afghanistan has now changed. There are Shias, Sikh, Ismailis, Sufi Sunnis and non-Pushto speakers who are all going to be dependent on Iran for their coming security. They will have no other choice whatsoever as Afghanistan is landlocked. But whether Iran would help them or not, will be seen. Iran just would want a buffer zone to keep Afghanistan’s mess out.

    * Unlike 1990’s, a non-nuclear Iran, much isolated and sanctioned would not go to a proxy war with nuclear armed and recipient of much foreign aid (both military and civilian) Pakistan. It would be stupidity. Specially that this nuclear armed country is sitting next on Iran’s border. All Iran can do, is to reach an agreement with Pakistan that Taliban would keep away from Iran’s border and Iran’s internal affairs (Taliban believe that Iran has to become Sunni again, if necessary by force). Whether Pakistan agrees to this is another matter.

    * Pakistan on the other hand wants Afghanistan to become its backyard again, in order to have strategic depth against India and a bargaining chip for negotiation for money and power with western world plus Russia and China. It is vital for them or that they become irrelevant in world affairs.

    * This time Taliban are going to be super confident. In their view they have “defeated” three super powers (as the story goes among them): British, Soviets and Americans. Much on such dusty battlefields depend on such legends. The Pushtons will roll over for Taliban. Afghanistan will again fall under their control. Last time the communist government of Kabul fell to Mujahedin in about 3 years. And that government had a much better equipped military soaked with missiles and a large air force with capable CAS. America on the other hand has made sure that the new Afghan government should not have any kind of air capability (forget about CAS) not even a functioning air lift. Let’s see if this new government will survive for 3 years after Americans leave.

    * The best bet for Iran is to reach an agreement with Pakistan over the sphere of influence in Afghanistan. Naturally Pakistan being nuclear armed, it would want a larger chunk. I think Iran should agree to that. At least it would help to teach the continuously backstabbing Indians that Iran is not impotent either. Another thing, Iran should bring up in such a discussion with Pakistan, in my belief, is that Iran should give its full assurances to Pakistan over Kashmir. India has become useless for Iran. It is time to mend relations with nuclear armed neighborly nation of Pakistan.

    * Also I believe, Iran should implement a national policy of legalization of drugs. All Iranians who declare themselves to be addict should be provided free drugs by the government (already Iran is doing something similar with its methadone program). With such a harm reduction method, the drug problem of Afghanistan would become meaningless for Iran and more of an issue for west, specially if Iran turns a blind eye for all the drugs flowing towards EU.

  421. Smith says:

    Don Bacon says:
    October 6, 2013 at 8:01 pm

    The only notable exports of Afghanistan is illegal drugs and some mineral ores under the control of Indian, Chinese and Western mining companies (Americans made sure Iranian companies do not get any share).

    Pakistan will make sure China will continue getting its share.

    Pakistan would not be happy with Iran allowing India accessing Afghanistan through Chabahar.

    It would be stupidity for Iran to buy Pakistan’s enmity for India or for that matter any one else.

    Iran should not become a bridge for India to Afghanistan. India gives Iran nothing. They are a backstabbing nation. A few weeks ago, an Indian ship releasing toxic oil waste in Persian Gulf was intercepted by Iran and was impounded. India went crazy over it, and threatened Iran to release the ship. Iran complied. Almost immediately.

    Two years ago, India had impounded an Iranian cargo ship under the excuse that Iran is under sanctions. The Iranian ship along with its crews have become a prisoner in India. The crew is sick and can not leave the ship. Situation is bad on board. India is pleased with punishing Iran. The crew of the ship is tortured regularly by Indians. This is the true relation of India and Iran.

  422. Don Bacon says:

    Smith says:
    October 6, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    International relations in general are more complex than you suggest with your petty examples.
    Example: Turkey is a principal trading partner of Iran.
    So, Iran will be a bridge to Central Asia for India if it suits Iran’s national interest.

  423. Don Bacon says:

    Smith says:
    October 6, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    I get a huge kick out of you giving diplomatic advice to Iran, a country which has proven over and over to be a master at diplomacy (think Iraq and Syria) and doesn’t need your petty advice.

  424. Smith says:

    Don Bacon says:
    October 6, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    You have no idea what you are talking about. For Pakistan, things are as I said. You are ignorant.

    And Iran is good with diplomacy. That is why this good diplomacy should now be protected and backed by nuclear deterrence.

  425. Smith says:

    Don Bacon says:
    October 6, 2013 at 10:10 pm

    You know you are a very funny guy. As per US government Pakistan has the world’s fastest growing nuclear weapons arsenal. This arsenal today is estimated to be above 120.

    If tomorrow, Pakistan becomes Saddam’s Iraq something very much possible, and Pakistan uses 60 nukes on Iranian cities and captures all southern shores of Iran along with oil and gas fields, would India defend Iran?

    Would US defend Iran?

    Would UN defend Iran?

    What shape would this defense be? Nuking back Pakistan? Does it serve any purpose?

    Without nuclear deterrence, Iran is a sitting duck.

  426. Dan Cooper says:

    Don Bacon says:

    October 4, 2013 at 10:29 am

    I just dont know why you had to make such an stupid comments.

    I guess The truth hurts.

    Israel leaders are war criminals.

    American leaders have been supporting these criminals for the past 65 years to their own detriment.

    It is absolutely clear that supporting Israel atrocities is damaging America and hurting its image across the globe.

    If the American press were free and fair and had broadcasted the Israel atrocities in Palestine fairly during the past 65 years, the American public would have woken up to threat of Israel long time ago.

    Now read the article from the press TV properly and enlighten as to which part of it you consider propaganda.

    US waking up to threat of Israel

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/327364.html

  427. Don Bacon says:

    Smith says:
    October 6, 2013 at 10:45 pm

    How does it feel to be the only one in the world worrying that Pakistan might nuke Iran?
    Do you feel lonely?
    You should, in your fantasy land.

  428. Smith says:

    Don Bacon says:
    October 6, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    I am not the only one. Rest assured. You are an ignorant funny guy.

  429. masoud says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 6, 2013 at 10:10 am

    Thank you so much for sharing that. I greatly enjoyed it.

  430. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    UU-jan,

    Extra points for “Agent Smithy Pants”.

    Now we just have to find a way for Agent Smithy Pants to get laid in one of these street orgies- FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!

    BibiJon,

    Additional protocol is a non-starter in Iran. Even mentioning it is impossible after what happened last time around- especially for Rohani. Any deal is gonna have to be without it. Sorry.

    M. Ali,

    Gee I was almost fooled fyi’s sudden desire to implement Sharia in his personal life by doing amr be maruf nahy az munkar- almost.

    Like I said, somebody who says that the Prophet (sawas) should have ignored the revelations and lived a quiet life is not a Muslim.

    His Islamic zeal to tell us how Islamic we are or not be darde felane amash mikhore.

    I would rather be half-Islamic under the guidance of Sayyid Ali than “fully” Islamic under the “guidance” of Jenabe fyi- you dig?

    As far as Agent Smithy Pants, all I have to say is that he should thank God that he wasn’t born in our generation because he would be prime candidate for being a Rajavi robot.

    I remember guys like him- self-righteous, arrogant, totally insecure, khosk moqaddas and “intelligent”- incapable of relaxing for even a second, always trying to show how much they know- allergic to any criticism.

    And what was the end of them?

    Intestinal parasites living up Rajavi’s backside.

    Thank God he’s born in the Islamic Republic of this era- safe, secure, wealthy, powerful, public health, public education.

    Anytime kids like him say “worse than the time of taghut” I just smirk and pat them on the head like you would a little sheep or goat that’s baaahing with a weak broken voice.

  431. Fiorangela says:

    Don Bacon says: October 6, 2013 at 8:11 pm

    Don Bacon, Netanyahu’s scheming is insidious and it’s been going on for a long time —

    In an appearance before a US House committee chaired by Dan Burton, Netanyahu identified Iran as part of the “network of terror,” but Iraq was the “keystone,” and should be taken down first. He urged the congress to take military action against Iraq.

    Dennis Kucinich said, “Who is next? Is Iran next?”

    Netanyahu said “Iran has 250,000 satellite dishes. Beam in Hollywood television programs and movies. Make the young people want the clothes and houses and swimming pools. That is subversive.

    When I see little girls in my neighborhood who are dressed like 6-year old strippers, or25-year old women in “blue jeans” cut off and rolled up so they cover less than underwear, it’s obvious to me that Netanyahu’s plan has worked well in the US: we have no sense of dignity and modesty. The US has been subverted by Hollywood and we haven’t even noticed it. That’s what Netanyahu intends for Iran.

    Iran’s leaders hold the opposite extreme to which many young Iranians object.

    The larger point is, if people like Netanyahu would mind his own business, the Iranian people would make their own decisions about their social mores.

    For the life of me I do not understand the compulsion to subvert other people’s cultures, which is Netanyahu’s goal. Israeli culture is hardly admirable. Neither is American popular culture.

    http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Conflictw

  432. BiBiJon says:

    Sineva says:
    October 5, 2013 at 8:12 am

    I had asked fyi: “Why do you think Iranian ICBMs would have made a difference in what has obtained in Syria for the last 3 years?”

    You were kind enough to answer: “The one big difference that I can think of would have been no threats of us aggression after the gas attacks and syria would not have had to sacrifice its chemical weapons to avoid an attack,altho` with a nuclear armed iran backing it up it probably wouldnt have needed chemical weapons anyway”

    As you know the Russian Federation has been extremely allergic to western interference in Syria. Also, as you know Russia has some 3,000 tactical, and strategic nuclear warheads deliverable from silos, mobile land-based launchers, submarines, and long-range aircraft. Sorry if I’m a bit dense. But could you tell us how many nukes Iran would have had to deploy in addition to the Russian assets to have made a detectable bit of difference?

  433. BiBiJon says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    October 7, 2013 at 4:54 am

    “Additional protocol is a non-starter in Iran. Even mentioning it is impossible after what happened last time around- especially for Rohani. Any deal is gonna have to be without it. Sorry.”

    Alternatively, if a deal includes AP, then any subsequent P5+1/IAEA skulduggery should be understood as the end of NPT for Iran.

  434. fyi says:

    Fiorangela says:

    October 6, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    No.

  435. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 6, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    In fact, Pakistan has been going out of her way helping Iran; e.g. many Iranian traders in Dubai decamped to Pakistan (as well as Turkey).

    And Mr. Khamenei already has reciprocated by mentioning Kashmir in one his speeches two years ago.

    I think it was 1999 or 2000 when Iranians wantedt to buy atropine for their drug-sniffig dogs from EU and EU did not sell it to them.

    You do not know how shabbily Iran has been treated for the last several generations: “give them donkeys from Cyprus…”

    I agree roughly with Mr. Smith’s assessment of Aghanistan.

    It is funny, in a way, that everything Axis Powers touch turns into ashes and every project concieved by them or their local harlots results in its intended opposite.

  436. fyi says:

    Don Bacon says:

    October 6, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    He is not the only one; rest assured.

    The situation with both India and Pakistan has been on the minds of Iranian planners since 1998.

    That is the major reason that no nuclear deal acceptable to Axis Powers can be reached wih Iran; it requires Iranians to stand naked at the face of potential state extinction.

  437. Sineva says:

    BiBiJon says:
    October 7, 2013 at 8:08 am
    The big difference is that russia has no mutual defence treaty with syria and despite its promises it was not even willing to supply the weapons like the s300 that the syrians had bought,all in all the aid russia has supplied has been lack lustre,the idea of the russians stepping in is laughable and this was quite clear to the west,but do you think the west would still have made threats if there had been a russo-syrian defence treaty and that the russians had made clear they would honor it?,of course under those circumstances russias conventional forces would probably be enough to make the west think twice.The issue here is not just what treaties and weapons one has its whether one is willing to honor those treaties and use those weapons,do you think the west would have threatened syria if a nuclear armed iran had said an attack on syria is an attack on iran and we will use all options to repel it,and suppose for good measure and to really get the point across they then tested a nuke.The lesson here is that weapons are only as credible as your resolve to use them,or at least threaten their use

  438. fyi says:

    Fiorangela says:

    October 7, 2013 at 7:26 am

    You are not looking at it the right way.

    Poorer people often emulate the richer people.

    That is why blue jeans is worn all over the world by the young people in poorer parts of the world.

    [In Madrid, young or old were mostly were dress-pants or dresses.]

    On the other hand, Liberty, is a very attractive part of the Western culture that does not have an equivalent anywhere else in the world.

    To the non-Western people, specially young people, Liberty and Freedom is like the Sirens in the Odyssey.

    Last year, in a speech, Mr. Khamenei urged the study of the concept of Freedom, “so well developed by Western Thinkers”, by the Iranian thinkers.

    That, however, is work of centuries in a society that cannot tolerate a woman riding a bike.

  439. fyi says:

    Sineva says:

    October 7, 2013 at 9:53 am

    Correct.

    Theoretically, there is a hierarchy of escalations in a war and counter-responses to those escalations.

    Ultimately, state security in Syria and in Iran cannot be predicated on conventional weapons that neither state has in sufficient quantity or quality.

    The S-300 weapon system was just the tip of the iceberg in this; Russians were never ever going to give these weapons to Iran or to Syria – they were using them as threats to extract something out of teh Axis Powers.

    And even if they did; as Mr. Smith eleaborated before, operationally they would not make any strategic difference to Axis Powers war against Iran or Syria.

    Ultimately, the desirbale thing for Iran is to be able to threathen certain capitals or cities with annihilation; so that she may be left alone.

    Iran has been a taregt of nuclear attacks by US and USSR planners since 1950s; this is nothing new for Iran.

    What Axis Powers have done in case of Iran, escalating to strategic Nowhere, has had global ramificatoins that we will see in the coming years and decades.

  440. fyi says:

    Meant to state:

    “Iran has been a taregt of planned nuclear attacks by US and USSR planners since 1950s; this is nothing new for Iran.”

  441. M.Ali says:

    “Poorer people often emulate the richer people.

    That is why blue jeans is worn all over the world by the young people in poorer parts of the world.”

    Except, with jeans, it was the opposite, it was rich people emulating poor people.

  442. Sineva says:

    Don Bacon says:
    October 6, 2013 at 7:36 pm
    Once again the west offers nothing and expects everything,what a sick joke.Iran should play the same game of offering nothing of actual value in return for actual sanctions relief ie iran will cap centrifuges at 50,000,iran will limit construction of heavy water reactors to 10 units and will only build another 4 fordow type facilities,in return for these incredibly generous offers all sanctions of any and all types must be permanently lifted.I can remember the west trying these same tricks with the ussr back in the days of nuclear arms reduction negotiations back in the late 70s

  443. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    BibiJon,

    Yes that might be the case, just noting that AP is a red line and Iran is not going to accept any further restriction beyond “normal” NPT rules.

    In fact we are certain of continued shaytanat by P5+1 and there is no need to tie one hand behind our back by committing to AP to “prove” anything.

    When/if we decide to leave NPT (inshallah soon when this final theater piece has ended), one word from you-know-who will be enough regardless of what came before it.

    The issue is much much deeper BibiJon. Iran was a US vassal for decades and their are many in both countries who cannot even imagine the two just having “normal” relations.

    In fact there will never be anything like “normal” relations between Iran and US given the history. “Normal” means relations that would neither be full-on enemies nor bosom-buddies.

    We are in a cold war based on fundamental and basic differences in the world-views of our elites and most of our populations. Even certain areas of “common interests” cannot trump this, motavaje arz-e bande hasti?

    There is no “win-win”, but Jenabe Zarif is doing an excellent job acting like their is.

    American elites- like Obama- are rotten and corrupt to the core and cannot be trusted with any agreement. This they have shown over the decades, it is an “empirical” fact, not an emotional reaction.

    Most importantly SL said again a couple days ago that he trusts the Iranian officials but doesn’t trust the Americans.

    He said the US blackmails every country but itself is blackmailed by the Israelis.

    Just look at Lula-Erdogan deal as a small recent example. Why on earth would the US embarrass friendly leaders like Lula or Erdogan? What’s the logic in this? None whatsoever.

    This recent diplomatic initiative has been great for Iran in the sense that it confirmed for many in the world that it is Israel that is irrational, unreasonable and well, “crazy”, not Iran. And it showed- once again- that Israel has the US- Congress, media etc.- by the balls.

    It’s time the US starts “proving” its “goodwill” with actions, not Iran. I’m not holding my breath.

  444. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Speaking of jeans…

    http://rt.com/news/iran-netanyahu-jeans-protest-837/

    Like I said, the best thing for the Islamic Republic is when Bibi is Prime Minister…oh Israelis please please keep re-electing him forever!

  445. BiBiJon says:

    Sineva says:
    October 7, 2013 at 9:53 am

    Forget defense pacts. In Afghanistan in the 80s Russia’s own troops were being killed in Vietnamesque numbers. Russian Choppers were being brought down by US supplied SAMs. The Mujahedin were hosted in the Oval office just to make sure everybody knew how committed the US was to bloodying USSR. USSR then had even more deployed nuclear warheads. If you like defense treaties, well the Warsaw pact fell apart without a shot being fired.

    What you are talking about is essentially nuclear blackmail which is tantamount to national suicide whether issued by US, Russia or in the future, by Iran. Talk about laughable. The Cuba/Turkey missile crisis was the last time anyone in their right minds would consider going through that gut-knotting experience.

    As for Russia’s lackluster attitude to defense of their interests in Syria, I read the events very differently. Russian navy sent a clear message there would be (non-nuclear) consequences to direct aggression upon Syria. Completely coincidentally, US/France backed off. These are ‘coincidences’ you can rely on.

    I assume s300 contain sensitive military secrets that Russia prefers to keep close to her chest.

  446. Unknown Unknowns says:

    fyi says:
    October 6, 2013 at 7:21 pm
    “Not at all; I am exercising my religious duty – albeit from a rather safe distance – to Promote Virtue and Oppose Vice.”

    Don’t you hate it when Christians can’t stick to their own religion and cross into someone else’s? Just because the Ahl-e Ketab religions have fallen apart and their practitioners have gone all mashang on us, doesn’t give them the right to borrow terminology from Islam. Stick to your own tradition, Mr. FYI!

    *

    Basiji-jan:

    Bonus points for the psychological mapping of Agent “Rajavibot 2.0” Smithy Pants. The environs in which you rightly place the type is exactly where they end up hanging out: where the sun don’t shine and without a paddle.

  447. fyi says:

    Unknown Unknowns says:

    October 7, 2013 at 11:04 am

    So you have no answer to yet another challenge of ideas – naming how to rationalize the Religious Duty of Promotion of Virture and Opposition to Vice within the context of an Islamic Polity with respect to both the State and the Population.

    You refuse to Think and hide behind the denigration of another People of The Book.

    No matter.

    Some one else will take that challenge, no doubt.

  448. Karl.. says:

    Bibijon

    If US and Iran already have made a deal as you say, why does Kerry ask for a new one?

    http://presstv.com/detail/2013/10/07/328060/us-wants-iran-to-offer-new-nproposals/

  449. Irshad says:

    One for Mr Canning:

    Winston Churchill ‘wanted to use most devastating chemical weapon ever devised’ on Russian Bolsheviks at the end of WWI

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2440225/Winston-Churchill-wanted-use-devastating-chemical-weapon-devised-Russian-Bolsheviks-end-WW1.html#ixzz2h3S8MNZd

    When will England get rid of its Chemical and Nuclear weapons – they obviously cannot be trusted with such destructive weapons?

  450. Irshad says:

    fyi says:
    October 6, 2013 at 2:43 pm
    “As to war:
    $ 2 billion a month with potential to transform the Middle East and World in ways very very unpalatable to Axis Powers.”

    fyi – can you clarify what you mean by this statement? Who is it going to cost £2bil? How will war transform the ME?

    In light of the strings of assasination against Iranian’s by a certain racist entity, what has/should be Iran’s response?

    And going forward how do you see things turning out in the Arab world/ME? Is there a germation of a new Sasanian confederacy – i.e. the countries and peoples of the ressitance Axis who can keep war away from their lands to concenterate on development and modernisation? Thanks

  451. BiBiJon says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    October 7, 2013 at 10:23 am

    First and last, I defer to those who put up, and fought for their country. But let me be the pesky student.

    Winds of change are blowing. Kerry says “So what we need are a set of proposals from Iran that will fully disclose how they will show the world that their program is peaceful.” (h/t Karl…) And, Kerry says “it’s a credit to the Assad regime, frankly. It’s a good beginning and we welcome a good beginning.”

    If the other side says (and DOES) the right things, and if skepticism saved us up to now, what will save us from skepticism?

  452. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 7, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    “If US and Iran already have made a deal as you say, why does Kerry ask for a new one?”

    Presumably you’re referring to Kerry asking Iran to make a proposal as to how they are going to assure P5+1 that they are not developing nuclear weapons.

    I find this consistent with my hypothesis. Iran comes up with a proposal, which US (and MSM) hails as new, and groundbreaking (whether or not it actually is) and then as previously decided they’ll close the nuclear file.

    My hypothesis is based on one assumption: neither Iran nor the US is interested in taking political risks in actually negotiating in public. That Obama, and Rouhani are sounding conciliatory towards one another, I assume, is because the contours of a deal has already been agreed upon, the rest is a public show, and of course details have to be hammered out because lower level functionaries were not part of the deal, and so the deal lacks implementation details.

    Can I prove it, no. Would the sky fall for me if it turned out I was wrong for the umpteen time? Also, no. It is just a point of view. Try and be chill about it.

  453. James Canning says:

    “If Iran and Saudi Arabia do not reach some kind of agreement over Syria and Iraq. . . [the] Saudis will continue doing their best to sabotage any nuclear deal between Iran and the US.”
    – -Commnent by a “senior adviser” to the Iranian government, in today’s Financial Times.

  454. James Canning says:

    Irshad,

    You think Britain has used CW or nukes?

  455. James Canning says:

    Irshad,

    You may know the US spends $500 million per year, destroying CW. UK has no wish to keep or use CW.

    Getting rid of nukes is good idea, but logic says get rid of Israeli nukes now. And NK’s.

  456. fyi says:

    Irshad says:

    October 7, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    $ 2 billion a month was a US estimate of the cost of war with Iran.

    Again, once US enters a war with Iran, she will be in a serious explicit religious war – Mr. Khamenei could declare US and her cohorts to be enemies of Islam and Muslims in a religious Fatwa.

    Almost certainly Iran would proceed to arm herself with nuclear weapons.

    And, potentially, US could find herself fighting Russia.

    But most importantly, in another unwinnable war, the United States and EU will be ditching their dream: re-orientation of the Iranian state towards the West. [They already have gone far in achieving the opposite with their sanctions, however.]

    And Heaven only knows what the future would hold for Sunni Arabs across the Persian Gulf indeed all Arab states; look no further than Egypt! More of the same, periodic unrest with autocracy re-asserting itself.

    That or model themselves after the Islamic Constitutional Monarchy of Morocco or copying as much of Iran as possible – which they won’t.

    Iran has been in a war with Axis Powers. In wars people are killed, including scientists.

    Iran ignored all those provocations, designed to make her lash out and thus precipitate the war that Axis Powers had been planning against her. That was the proper response; i.e. “No Response”, in my opinion.

    I think you can see the emergence of the dreaded by some Shia Crescent as a loose alliance of like-minded countries.

    But what is needed is to formalize it and deepen it.

    For example, there could be a protocol among these countries that their citizens can live and work anywhere within the Shia Crescent but cannot vote in local elections.

    These countries could agree on a military alliance structure in which, when the alliance is invoked, the Office of the Supreme Jurisprudent of Iran with assume the position of the Commander-in-Chief of the Crescent’s military forces; in effect, the Supreme Jurisprudent will become the Captain General of the Crescent’s armed-forces.

    However, I think a deeper study of history is needed here before one gets carried away with unworkable schemes.

    The Ottoman Empire had been the most successful Muslim state ever to exist; it was the most powerful and modern one and it lasted the longest. Its Melliyat system of governing non-Muslims was better than anything that came before or after it – both inside Anatolia and outside of Anatolia.

    Outside of the Ottoman Empire, no Muslim polity or kingdom has endured for more than 260 years – to my knowledge

    Certainly, on the Iranian plateau, since the demise of the Parthian-Sassanian Confederacy that endured for roughly the same length of time as the Ottoman Empire did.

    And I think this where a rational and empirical approach to the past is most useful; namely: “Why has no political dispensation or dynasty lasted more than 250 years among Muslim polities anywhere in the world?”

    Note that the late Ibn Khaldun posed the same question in regards to the Arab dynasties of North Africa and supplied an answer based on the notion of Assabiya (or loss thereof).

    Recently, Dr. Peter Turchin took the ideas of Ibn Khaldun and the late Lev Gumilev and developed a quantitative theory of Dynastic cycles in his book: “Historical Dynamics”.

    Perhaps that is where one needs to start for an analysis.

    I think without knowing why all these dispensations have failed to endure we cannot move on to ensure the future endurance of analogous dispensations.

  457. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 7, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    UK used them in Iraq before WWII against Arabs.

  458. Karl.. says:

    Bibijon

    Thats the issue I guess, you have not a single proof that a secret deal have been made, why live in this denial?

  459. Fiorangela says:

    re books —

    Nathaniel Hawthorne’s uncle, John Hathorne, was the only judge at the Salem Witch trials who never repented of his actions. Nathaniel added the “w” to his name to distinguish himself from his uncle.

    Hawthorne also delved deeply into the Puritan psyche in his short stories and novels. Young Goodman Brown is Hawthorne’s fictional examination of that event in US history and its place in shaping “the public mind.”

    The notion of “the public mind” and, perhaps, a tendency among Americans to “diseases in the public mind” have been observed by diverse American leaders from Hawthorne to President Buchanan to Robert E. Lee to presidential candidate Adlai Stevenson. In a 1952 campaign speech, Stevenson said, “Those who corrupt the public mind are just as evil as those who steal from the public.”

  460. kooshy says:

    Bibijon

    You are very correct; in the recent Syrian crises all indications are that the Russians with their stiff show of force (deployment of sophisticated Intel. Vessels) were actually showing that they are assuming protection of the Syrian skies instead of leaving it only to Syrians. It would have been foolish for Russia and I don’t think if shooting had started Mr. Putin would have made an ass of Russia by taking all these heavy navy assets there and not do anything, in a sense you are right this seemed like a mini Cuban M. crises, one that US/west backed off since I am sure they were told there will be more people involved in this thing other than you and Syria, usually that’s how people back off from red lines when they see, it’s too costly.

  461. Fiorangela says:

    A Disease of the Public Mind: A New Understanding of Why We Fought the Civil War, by Thomas Fleming, historian.

    Public mind describes something much less fluctuating than public opinion that can change as swiftly as the weather. The public mind involved fixed beliefs that were fundamental to the way people saw the world of their time.

    A disease of the public mind was — and is, because we’ve got a few today — a twisted interpretation of political or economic or spiritual realities that seizes control of thousands and even millions of people.”

  462. James Canning says:

    Kooshy,

    Lavrov told Kerry that, since Kerry said US need not attack Syria if Syria agreed to get rud of CW, the obvious way forward was to work together to get rid of Syria’s CW. Which was true.

  463. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    True. Good reminder.

  464. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    The US spends about $100 billion per year on its Afghan quagmire.

  465. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Interesting post, re: American Civil War. An unnecessary war, caused by incessant propaganda. And biggest catastrophe in American history.

  466. kooshy says:

    Is Iran the Next China?
    Posted By Stephen M. Walt Monday, October 7, 2013 – 1:38 PM

    “The second lesson, of course, is that Rusk was dead wrong. China tested nuclear weapons and eventually built a modest nuclear arsenal, but it didn’t try to blackmail, invade, or intimidate anyone. In fact, the acquisition of nuclear weapons did almost nothing to increase China’s international influence. What did increase China’s global stature were the post-Mao economic reforms (the “Four Modernizations”), which unleashed three decades of rapid economic growth.

    And that’s the third lesson too. The nuclear issue has dominated U.S. policy toward Iran for more than a decade, and while it is not a trivial problem, it’s probably not the most important one either. Iran is not going to give up control over the full fuel cycle (meaning it will insist on keeping some enrichment and reprocessing capabilities), though it may agree to some limits and to intrusive inspections. If we demand more than that, there won’t be a deal. Put differently, any deal that Teheran will accept is still going to leave it with the ability to produce a bomb if it ever decides it needs to; we are mostly going to be negotiating over the length of time it would take them to do so and thus how much warning we are likely to get.”

    http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/10/07/comparing_iran_now_and_china_then

  467. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    UU-jan,

    Super-duper extra points for “Rajavibot 2.0”.

    And yes there is another place where the sun don’t (usually) shine- different than the one we were referring to- which Young Agent Rajavibot 2.0-IQ-147 has to begin exploring- PRONTO- if you know what I mean…we’re reaching “critical mass” if you know what I mean…needs a little “distraction” if you know what I mean…to “take his mind off things” if you know what I mean…he needs to experience a little “release” after so much “tension”…if you know what I mean.

    I really don’t know why he doesn’t take the golden opportunity presented to him by God with these alleged street orgies…just say the magic formula and voila- “halal” fun for everyone…if you know what I mean.

    I mean what is an IQ of 147 good for if you can’t even use it to get laid in this ocean of fesad and fah-sha that the IRI is allegedly…if you know what I mean.

    BibiJon,

    Believe me, I love your optimism and I tend to be a positive kinda guy myself and of course as Imam and Agha say we always try to have good relations with everybody- but khoda vakili- how can any rational person trust American elites with that shitty track record?

  468. Sineva says:

    “nuclear blackmail” as you call it was the basis for the peace that lasted between the super powers for over 45 years,both sides agreed to not confront each other directly but instead to fight proxy wars in each others spheres of influence that was what we saw in afghanistan and in indo china and the middle east,as for the value of defence treaties,like all treaties it depends on whether they were honored or not.The warsaw pact collapsed when its member states broke away from the soviet sphere of influence,this was due to internal, political revolts in these states,now had gorbachev sent in the troops at the beginning as had been done previously in hungary and czechoslovakia who nows what might have happened,now that is a good example of what I was talking about:A military treaty is only as good as ones resolve to back it up.The russian naval forces could have done little had syria been attacked as they were quite out numbered and out classed by the nato naval forces,indeed the general consensus was that those ships were there to evacuate the remaining russians in syria in the event of an attack or the collapse of assads government.As for your “s300 contain sensitive military secrets”,that is with all due respect laughable,the russians have sold this system to nato member greece as well as to several other countries,fyi is quite correct on this one,these were used to extract concessions from the west just as was done with the un sanctions on irans nuclear program.Answer me this question if you were obama would you still attack syria if a nuclear armed iran said “an attack on syria is an attack on iran and will be met with all military options”,I have a feeling you would think twice about that one,I also imagine you would probably have to give up any fantasies you might have had about regime change in iran as well.Nuclear weapons have their place and their value,as to whether iran should have them thats a decision for irans government

  469. kooshy says:

    James Canning says:
    October 7, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    Gav , I don’t think like they say and try to make believe that was a gaff it looks to it me was a staged implanted question , a pre agreed face saving way out of a red line like that of the NIE 2007.
    It could be that this was proposed by putting in G20, and a face saving mechanism was a condition of acceptance by the super duper power, regardless and without consideration of a face saving mechanism for the US’s client sates France, Turkey, KSA, Qatar.

    My Yazdi mother use to tell me this Persian proverb that roughly translates like this “when baboon’s booty burns, she will even seat on her baby”

  470. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 7, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    “Thats the issue I guess, you have not a single proof that a secret deal have been made, why live in this denial?”

    Just in case, maybe I should explain a couple of things …

    a) Hypothesis means (to me) a proposition, a possible explanation. It naturally means there’s no proof. Otherwise, one would not say: hypothesis. If you wanted to be a stickler for proofs, then I guess for an hypothesis to be ‘scientific’ it must be ‘testable’, or as (your namesake) Popper would say, ‘refutable.’ In the sense that we’ll know in a couple of weeks in Geneva whether or not I was onto something, then I could even claim to have put forward a testable hypothesis.

    b) The whole subject of International Relations is jam-packed, chock-full, and overflowing with theories, and hypotheses, with barely any ‘proof.’ It may well not be your cup of tea.

    Now, I do welcome your thoughts in 2 areas:

    1) Is there a change of tone/behavior out of USG and IRI?
    2) Is the Obama-Rouhani love-fest an event worth theorizing about?
    3) What is wrong with my assumption that both sides are politically risk averse?

    Don’t worry about proofs, just base your comments on discernible logic, reason, etc., rather than mere assertions.

  471. BiBiJon says:

    Sineva says:
    October 7, 2013 at 3:59 pm

    Would you mind breaking into paragraphs?

  472. fyi says:

    All:

    In Persian

    http://www.fardanews.com/fa/news/292682/ضرب‌وشتم-بانوی-آمربه-معروف-سمنانی

    A woman harassing 2 other women for their hejab is attacked; a string of such incidents over the past few weeks.

    I imagine very many people in Iran are not taking too kindly to this sort of denigration and intimidation under the guise of Islam.

  473. BiBiJon says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    October 7, 2013 at 3:57 pm

    I’d say ‘trust’ is very long-term, if ever.

    Ceasefire is instant, (and reversible) but not to be confused with fyi’s position which regards peace, as a permanent state of pre-hostilities. Out of ceasefire can come reallocation of resources, which both sides will get used to its dividends, and put resumption of a cold-war further from their thoughts, creating the ground for ‘earning’ of trust.

  474. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 7, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    “Out of ceasefire can come reallocation of resources, which both sides will get used to its dividends, and put resumption of a cold-war further from their thoughts, creating the ground for ‘earning’ of trust.”

    The late Mr. Qaddafi must have thought so.

    “The backer of a warrior is his sword.”

  475. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says: October 7, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    It is interesting, James, that the Civil War, just like the Spanish-American War (Remember the Maine), US in WWI, US in WWII, Viet Nam War, Persian Gulf I, invasion of Iraq, war against Libya, US sponsored terrorist infiltration of Syria, and financial & subversive war on Iran were ALL based on lies, and on propagandizing (Lynne Olson calls it “educating”) the public to hate someone. Sanho Tree argued that a circular dead-end results when people (warriors, in his example) are conditioned to hate the Other.

    Fleming explained that the genius of Lincoln is that he realized you have to approach a situation without engendering hatred. George Washington, too, is said to have taken that approach (although Washington’s instructions to General “Mad” Anthony Wayne to eradicate Indians from the region around Fort Duquesne and the confluence of the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers presents another side of Washington that Fleming might not find so pacific).

    Years ago there was a book about Europe in the Middle Ages titled, “A World Lit Only by Fire.” Our post-Edison high technology world seems to be lit only by lies.

  476. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 7, 2013 at 5:30 pm

    Repeat of reminder for those with short memories:

    Compare this: http://goo.gl/D8fPkz

    With

    This: goo.gl/kye74b

    “We also need the atom bomb. If our nation does not want to be intimidated, we have to have this thing.” ~ Mao Zedong

  477. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 7, 2013 at 5:30 pm

    Qaddafi did not have a sword. Iran does. And, nobody is suggesting she should surrender her sword.

  478. James Canning says:

    Sineva,

    Are you sorry Gorbachev was not willing to use Soviet troops to keep the Communists in power in countries in central Europe? Do you think he should have used force, in effort to keep USSR from disintegrating?

  479. Irshad says:

    fyi says:
    October 7, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Thank you for your response. You say that, “Outside of the Ottoman Empire, no Muslim polity or kingdom has endured for more than 260 years – to my knowledge.” – then shouldn’t we be looking at how the Ottomans managed to survive so long as a dynasty and empire -600 years? But then again the problem with this is you cannot bring back such institutions as the sultan/caliph, millet system, shariah, etc. too much has happened historically between the end of the ottoman empire and say 2013.

    Whats your view on the concept of “emirate” that some of these neo-salafi groups harp on about?

    In terms of a political union of the shia crescent countries – the roots of it has already been planted when Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran signed a freedom of movent agreement with no need of visas etc to enhance trade and goods. This was done in 09/10 – not too sure exactly when. Would the exclusion of Turkey (thanks to its anti-Assad Syria policy) can this not continue and be built upon to inclde Lebanon, Armenia, Tajikistan etc.?

  480. James Canning says:

    Guardian quotes Netanyahu today as claiming Israel’s continuing occupation of the West Bank (and Golan Heights), and illegal cononisation programme, are not the problem preventing peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Total nonsense.

  481. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    October 7, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    Nyahoo is totally correct.
    What is preventing peace is the billions of US military subsidy to Israel and the unbalance of power between West and the Muslim countries…

    But the economic collapse is near… sad for us… and for Nyahoo.

  482. kooshy says:

    fyi says:
    October 7, 2013 at 5:30 pm

    “The late Mr. Qaddafi must have thought so.”

    A complete irrelevant, dishonest and unfair comparison, I don’t know if these irrelevant lambasts are done due to lack of a broad mind or perhaps, for a back of mind conclusion that IRI is illegitimate like Gaddafi was? No dear Gadhafi did not enjoy 72% voter participation, Libya is weaker colonial made country (do you see the straight line borders, that is manmade a nation made) and not in same league as Iran and for sure not a nation state, so her soft and hard preventive defensive power is not comparable, to be made as an example for Iran.

  483. fyi says:

    Irshad says:
    October 7, 2013 at 6:26 pm

    As you have stated, too much has changed yet I agree that it is useful to study how the Ottoman Empire, like the Papacy and before that the Roman Empire endured for as long as it did.

    Our problem is that Muslims Thinkers do not seem to be interested in that line of thought and research; Shia and Sunni write and think as though the Prophet had died just a fortnight ago.

    The “Emirate” concept among some Sunnis, just like repeated references to the governance of Imam Ali among the Shia reeks of extreme laziness of the mind – as though the Omavids, the Abbasids, the Bhuids, the Seljuks, the Mughals, the Safavids, the Sheibans, the Ottomans, the Al Moravids and many many others never existed.

    These people do not want to think – it is as simple as that.

    Neither Turkey nor Pakistan nor Afghanistan can be included for multiple reasons – chief among them is that the countries and people of the Shia Crescent face physical extinction if they cease to work together.

    The other thing is that when very many Turks, Azeris, Armenians, Pakistanis look at Iran the only thing he or she sees in the Islamic Disaster and not the strategic autonomy.

    Inside Iran, hundreds of thousands of young as well as old people are against religion and Islam – there is no doubt.

    They are angry and alienated – I have met them.

    The Prophet could bring Ous and Khazrej together, in Iran the opposite obtains.

  484. fyi says:

    kooshy says:
    October 7, 2013 at 7:25 pm

    You seem to have a problem understanding simple sentences in English.

    In what manner was I questioning the legitimacy of the Islamic Republic of Iran?

    You owe me an apology.

  485. Smith says:

    Better times; one leader was wise and the other believed in promise of the white man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfu4dNGNHgQ

  486. kooshy says:

    fyi says:
    October 7, 2013 at 8:09 pm
    On the contrary you owe everyone on this forum an apology for comparing Libya and Qaddafi to Iran and living image elected Iranians , contrary to what you think readers and commenters on this forum understand the end intentions for yours and Smith’s continued irrational unproven, lambasted replies.

    As I had said a while back, when I see you make these kind of irrelevant analysis on Iran I will reply, regardless of how you may like it and react, the audience should have a chance to see a possible intention for Inadmissible frictional comparisons without any relevancy to Iran.

  487. kooshy says:

    fyi says:
    October 7, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    After all I do feel I owe this forum why I thought you made an irrational unfair comparison when you replied to Bibijon’s, ridiculing his optimism for a possible deal for what you say is giving up Iran’s sovereign nuclear rights. Correct?
    Your sarcastic reply to him was; that even though Qaddafi gave up his whatever nuclear assets was, he still he got a dagger up his ass. Correct? Comparing the Iranian leaders and Iran with the end game Qaddafi and Libya got if they end up making made a deal not to make a N. bomb. Correct?

    Now what is your rational for comparing nuclear negotiations by an un-elected, ridiculous, irrational leader of a small irrelevant made up 50 year old country with that of Iran and Iran’s elected leaders. Just remember when twenty some years ago, Mr. Qaddafi was being bombed and seeing his daughter killed in his own tent no one in the west even though Iran didn’t poses a N bomb dared to attack Mr. Khomeini’s home, knowing with one sentence of him millions will come out in his support.
    So what is the rational for lambasting Iran’s nuclear negotiations with the west to equate it with that of Mr. Qaddafi? Why do you think if Mr. Qaddafi got a knife up his ass the same faith is in the cards for Iran? Why these two countries soft and hard power equates and brings them the same results?
    The intention for making this kind of comparison is to make the reader to conclude in one of the two pre decided scenarios, first, conclusion for the reader could be to compare and equate Iran’s 10 year old N. negotiations to protect her ingenious N. technology to that of Qaddafi’s sudden giving up, of his bought unopened nuclear kits, in this you may intend to lower the level of Iran’s nuclear technology to that of Libya’s unassembled kits. The second conclusion is to direct the reader’s rational to conclude since Mr. Qaddafi was un-elected and therefore illegitimate he didn’t have a national support to withstand the foreign pressure.
    So if Iran is to give up is because they are not nationally supported and illegitimate, and at the end like him will get the knife.
    Unlike your way, this same two end conclusions are overtly discussed and published on major western MSM every day, but their intentions are same as yours mostly to convey that Iran is weak and has an illegitimate system and if is to make a deal is due to preserving their system and not the nation.

  488. Sineva says:

    James Canning says:
    October 7, 2013 at 6:17 pm
    Where on earth did I say that James?

  489. Sineva says:

    kooshy says:
    October 7, 2013 at 10:57 pm
    Kooshy they did not need to bomb Mr. Khomeini’s home,saddam was already bombing and gassing iranians with the wests wholehearted support and collaboration,you`re also ignoring the shooting down of an airliner,the assassinations of scientists and military personnel,the economic seige warfare of sanctions as bad as any libya was under and the constant threat of all options on the table,now Gaddafi was a fool and he was an even bigger fool to trust the west,I dont think irans leaders are that stupid but I think the differences between the west and the iri are too great for any “grand bargain”,however a limited deal,a detente may be possible but I am not optimistic

  490. kooshy says:

    Sineva says:
    October 7, 2013 at 11:39 pm

    A proxy war, an economic war, a cold war by both sides (like Iranians kicking US/French out of Lebanon, or more recently out of Iraq, and other events of personnel injuries) is not same as directly attacking and bombing leader of a sovereign state, unless in your book anything can and should be glued and bind together.

    I am not talking about any grand bargain, and I don’t think we can expect more than some form of détente, Iran will not and should not trust the west we all agree on that, I don’t think even Bibijon is suggesting or talking about a lovey dovey trusting partnership.

    My point was not about if Iran should or should not trust, approach, deal, whatever, my point was and is that Iran’s position, and Iranian leader’s legitimacy on the nuclear issue is not and does not equates to that
    of Libya and Qaddafi to qualify a comparison and therefore the same end faith, I stand by that.

  491. Sineva says:

    kooshy says:
    October 8, 2013 at 12:42 am
    Fair enough,tho I think the fate of gaddafi should stand as a stark warning to irans leaders when they are negotiating any deal with the west

  492. M.Ali says:

    Fyi,

    “The other thing is that when very many Turks, Azeris, Armenians, Pakistanis look at Iran the only thing he or she sees in the Islamic Disaster and not the strategic autonomy.”

    On the Pakistan count, you are at least wrong.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/11/iran-is-popular-in-pakistan-overwhelmingly-disliked-everywhere-else/

    2012 poll shows that 76% of Pakistanis support Iran. So, I’m not sure why you claim that they see Iran as an Islamic Disaster. Unfortunately, fyi, for all your knowledge, you constantly base your conclusions on points that are wrong, making your conclusions flimsy.

    Interestingly, my own feelings are close to the above polls based on the Pakistanis I interacted in Dubai. However, I don’t take my own anecdotes as science, and would much prefer to rely on polls.

    Regarding Turkey, you are closer to the truth, given that 26% of them are favorable to Iran. However, we have to remember that Turkey today is based on Ataturk’s secular vision, so I don’t think their people are dreaming of an Islamic Solution.

    That leaves Azerbaijan and Armenia, the other two countries you mention. Of those, Azerbaijan has low view of Iran, while Armenia should not be included in the list, since its not country full of Muslims.

    This poll has interesting data:
    http://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/iranpollresultsreport.pdf

    Closely related to your post would be table Two in that poll, titled “2. Models for Development”.

    I think such data can be a great help in understand the complexities of the geopolitical situation, as long as we don’t try to simplify it to come to very easy and basic conclusions, which is how the west reacts to Iran.

    Okay, to go back to the poll. Lets start with table one. When one looks closely at the data, comparing numbers, one is actually surprised by some of the information. Arab countries are generally unfavor towards Iran, but surprisingly, not as much as one would expect. A country like Yemen, which is full of Sunni Extremists and Saudi backed money, seems to be 80% favorable toward Iran. Bahrain is oly 42% favorable towards Iran, but only 34% favorable towards KSA, meaning even after all the billions invested in that nation by KSA, they are still m ore favorable towards Iran than KSA! Ones that pop up are KSA themselves & Qatar which have very low views towards Iran, with KSA having only 15% favorable views towards Iran, while they have 62% positive view towards USA.

    Once the above results are split down on Shia/Sunni split, we have a completely different picture. Iran on the whole has won the Shia’s hearts and minds, but hasnn’t been as successful with the Sunnis. Of the countries that had low views of Iran, such as KSA, when you split them in sub-religions, then we see that 92% of Saudi Shias are favorable towards Iran, while 0% of Saudi Sunnis are favorable towards Iran. This is a huge discrepency. Bahrain has a similiar split (76% of Shias are positive, while only 4% of Sunnis are positive).

    Other groups also show interesting results, such as 81% of Lebanese Christians are positive towards Iran, while their views on other christian countries in the poll (such as USA, Russia, UK, etc) are much lower than that.

    The two polls I have posted have one major discrepency between the two. In the Wilson Center poll, Pakistanis have only 24% favorable towards Iran, while the Pew poll has Pakistan being 76% positive towards Iran. I’m now not sure which poll is more realistic.

    Okay, enough of that, lets check out the table which was related to your post, “Models for Development”.

    Out of the gulf countries (+ Yemen) group, none of them view Iran as a model to follow. That’s what it looks like at first, but closer look gives us another viewpoint. With Kuwait, only 44% of them think Iran is a good model to follow. Which is less than half, HOWEVER, thats higher than the other options the Kuwaitis were given. When asked if they would want to follow Qatar’s model, only 29% of Kuwaities think its a good model to follow, with UAE’s model, 33% of Kuwaities think it is a good model to follow, 26% with Egypt’s model, and 37% with Turkey’s model. Isn’t this a huge unexpected result, given that UAE’s and Qatar’s model are close to Kuwait’s own model? Out of Qatar, UAE, Turkey, Egypt, and Iran, Kuwaities find Iran’s model the best. Bahrainies are almost the same, with UAE only slightly higher than Iran.

    As with previous, when it is split among religious sect, overwhemly the Shias of those nations find Iran’s model a good model to follow.

    In this section, Pakistan is close to the PEW poll, where 72% of Pakistanis find Iran a good model to follow.

    Apologies for everyone for the long post, but this shows that, given that,

    1) There has been a mass anti-Iranian campaign for the last, god knows, how many decades

    2) Overwhelming sanctions against Iran

    3) The Iranian Islamic Experiment still in reform stage

    …views towards its model are surprisngly better than one would expect. If Iran is able to find a solution to reach out to Sunnis, challenge the anti-Iranian narrative, and have a strong economy, can you imagine the huge boost in the Islamic state’s public support for Iran?

  493. M.Ali says:

    I posted this once, but as it is under moderation, I am reposting it but with links changed:

    Fyi,

    “The other thing is that when very many Turks, Azeris, Armenians, Pakistanis look at Iran the only thing he or she sees in the Islamic Disaster and not the strategic autonomy.”

    On the Pakistan count, you are at least wrong.

    www DOT washingtonpost DOT com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/11/iran-is-popular-in-pakistan-overwhelmingly-disliked-everywhere-else/

    2012 poll shows that 76% of Pakistanis support Iran. So, I’m not sure why you claim that they see Iran as an Islamic Disaster. Unfortunately, fyi, for all your knowledge, you constantly base your conclusions on points that are wrong, making your conclusions flimsy.

    Interestingly, my own feelings are close to the above polls based on the Pakistanis I interacted in Dubai. However, I don’t take my own anecdotes as science, and would much prefer to rely on polls.

    Regarding Turkey, you are closer to the truth, given that 26% of them are favorable to Iran. However, we have to remember that Turkey today is based on Ataturk’s secular vision, so I don’t think their people are dreaming of an Islamic Solution.

    That leaves Azerbaijan and Armenia, the other two countries you mention. Of those, Azerbaijan has low view of Iran, while Armenia should not be included in the list, since its not country full of Muslims.

    This poll has interesting data:
    www DOT wilsoncenter DOT org/sites/default/files/iranpollresultsreport.pdf

    Closely related to your post would be table Two in that poll, titled “2. Models for Development”.

    I think such data can be a great help in understand the complexities of the geopolitical situation, as long as we don’t try to simplify it to come to very easy and basic conclusions, which is how the west reacts to Iran.

    Okay, to go back to the poll. Lets start with table one. When one looks closely at the data, comparing numbers, one is actually surprised by some of the information. Arab countries are generally unfavor towards Iran, but surprisingly, not as much as one would expect. A country like Yemen, which is full of Sunni Extremists and Saudi backed money, seems to be 80% favorable toward Iran. Bahrain is oly 42% favorable towards Iran, but only 34% favorable towards KSA, meaning even after all the billions invested in that nation by KSA, they are still m ore favorable towards Iran than KSA! Ones that pop up are KSA themselves & Qatar which have very low views towards Iran, with KSA having only 15% favorable views towards Iran, while they have 62% positive view towards USA.

    Once the above results are split down on Shia/Sunni split, we have a completely different picture. Iran on the whole has won the Shia’s hearts and minds, but hasnn’t been as successful with the Sunnis. Of the countries that had low views of Iran, such as KSA, when you split them in sub-religions, then we see that 92% of Saudi Shias are favorable towards Iran, while 0% of Saudi Sunnis are favorable towards Iran. This is a huge discrepency. Bahrain has a similiar split (76% of Shias are positive, while only 4% of Sunnis are positive).

    Other groups also show interesting results, such as 81% of Lebanese Christians are positive towards Iran, while their views on other christian countries in the poll (such as USA, Russia, UK, etc) are much lower than that.

    The two polls I have posted have one major discrepency between the two. In the Wilson Center poll, Pakistanis have only 24% favorable towards Iran, while the Pew poll has Pakistan being 76% positive towards Iran. I’m now not sure which poll is more realistic.

    Okay, enough of that, lets check out the table which was related to your post, “Models for Development”.

    Out of the gulf countries (+ Yemen) group, none of them view Iran as a model to follow. That’s what it looks like at first, but closer look gives us another viewpoint. With Kuwait, only 44% of them think Iran is a good model to follow. Which is less than half, HOWEVER, thats higher than the other options the Kuwaitis were given. When asked if they would want to follow Qatar’s model, only 29% of Kuwaities think its a good model to follow, with UAE’s model, 33% of Kuwaities think it is a good model to follow, 26% with Egypt’s model, and 37% with Turkey’s model. Isn’t this a huge unexpected result, given that UAE’s and Qatar’s model are close to Kuwait’s own model? Out of Qatar, UAE, Turkey, Egypt, and Iran, Kuwaities find Iran’s model the best. Bahrainies are almost the same, with UAE only slightly higher than Iran.

    As with previous, when it is split among religious sect, overwhemly the Shias of those nations find Iran’s model a good model to follow.

    In this section, Pakistan is close to the PEW poll, where 72% of Pakistanis find Iran a good model to follow.

    Apologies for everyone for the long post, but this shows that, given that,

    1) There has been a mass anti-Iranian campaign for the last, god knows, how many decades

    2) Overwhelming sanctions against Iran

    3) The Iranian Islamic Experiment still in reform stage

    …views towards its model are surprisngly better than one would expect. If Iran is able to find a solution to reach out to Sunnis, challenge the anti-Iranian narrative, and have a strong economy, can you imagine the huge boost in the Islamic state’s public support for Iran?

  494. M.Ali says:

    I made a following post to my previous post about the polls, and I closed the window by mistake, and I don’t want to write it all up again.

    However, please look at Wilson Center poll, the following sections,

    8. R elationship with Iran and its People
    9. The Culture of Your Country Versus the Culture of Iran
    10. Comparing Arab and Iranian Culture

    I went through them one by one, commenting on the details, but I unfortunately closed the window, losing all my analysis. However, please look at it, my summary of my analysis was that, generally, Arabs just don’t ilke Iranians. They think our culture is inferior to them, they think we are not hardworking people, they think our contributing to Islam was minimum, they consider as more violent (even countries that were involved with violence against Arabs, such as Kuwait or Lebanon or Sudan), they consider us less generous, they consider us less knowledgable, and even with our 3000+ history, they consider us less grounded in history and civilization.

    This was true across almost ALL arab countries AND true for both Sunnis AND SHIAS.

    Non-Arab countries, such as Turkey & Pakistan, shared similiar views.

    This was also true for countries that have population that were until very recently Iranians, such as huge populations of UAE & Kuwait, or even whole countries, such as Bahrain & Azerbaijan.

    We Iranians have a lot of work cut out for us, until we change this mentality. This has nothing to do with the IRI system, because countries that were very positive towards our model & policies, still don’t seem to like us as people that much…

  495. BiBiJon says:

    kooshy says:
    October 7, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    I really appreciate your remarks.

    fyi, Sineva, your constant depiction of Iran as weak and vulnerable, etc. is so tiresome. I don’t understand what it is about a possible thaw in US-Iran relations that has riled you up so much. They come to some accommodation, or they don’t. What is it with all the sarcasm?

    Meanwhile …

    “Wendy Sherman also pointedly refused under tough questioning by Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) to rule out enrichment on Iranian soil as part of a comprehensive settlement. Instead, she repeated Obama’s recent comments to the UN General Assembly: “We … respect the right of the Iranian people to the peaceful use of nuclear energy” provided that Iran responds with actions “that are transparent and verifiable” in insuring that Iran does not develop nuclear weapons.”

    Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/10/iran-nuclear-deal–concessions-hint.html#ixzz2h7YSEJCO

  496. Karl.. says:

    Bibijon

    “Don’t worry about proofs, just base your comments on discernible logic, reason, etc., rather than mere assertions.”

    Sure we could cut off “proofs” you still have no case if you base this argument on “logic, reason”. Today we read this by EU:
    http://presstv.com/detail/2013/10/08/328252/eu-seeks-tangible-results-at-ntalks/

    Based on “logic, reason” how should we approach this statement?

  497. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 8, 2013 at 5:40 am

    Are you pretending to be completely daft? Do yourself a favor, read the article you linked.

  498. M.Ali says:

    Bibijon, regarding your post,
    “fyi, Sineva, your constant depiction of Iran as weak and vulnerable, etc. is so tiresome.”

    I agree. What I don’t understand is their contradiction. The argument is that Iran is weak and vulnerable, that it HAS to have nukes to defend itself.

    But if it is WEAK and VULNERABLE, then how can it persue nukes, without being bombed to little pieces by strong powers?

    If it ISN’T weak and vulnerable, that it can get nuclear weapons, without being attacked, then why do we REALLY need it so much?

    That is, it is a logical contradiction:

    1) Iran needs nukes to defend itself because it is weak
    2) Iran can get nukes without being attacked because it is strong

  499. Karl.. says:

    Bibijon

    Calling someone stupid because you lack arguments isnt the way to go really especially since the EU statement just adds to more PROOFS that there is no secret deal. Contrary both EU and US have built up more pressure against Iran to change its policies.

  500. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 8, 2013 at 6:17 am

    You have proved something I guess. So be happy.

  501. Karl.. says:

    Bibijon

    Again calling someone stupid isnt going to win you any debate. It clear that you lack proof, logic, reason regarding this view of a secret deal.

  502. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 8, 2013 at 6:49 am

    Really. I submit to your superior proof, logic, reason regarding this view of a secret deal.

    I wished I knew what secret deal you are talking about. If you mean a backdoor channel broad understanding between the two antagonists before being publicly conciliatory, well I think that is the way things get done in this planet. Whether or not it was done in this case, we’ll see.

    But, again. I take my hat off to you. You have been persistent, insistent, and adamant. You win. Well done. Do go on to other topics.

  503. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    From SL’s latest speech (doesn’t let me post link)

    Quote

    We hear the repeated and disgusting threats of the enemies of the Iranian nation. Our response to any wickedness and malevolence against the Iranian nation will be a serious and strong response. All those who have got used to threatening the Iranian nation should know this and should be aware of this. The Iranian nation is a nation which has shown its steadfastness in defending its ideals and safeguarding its interests, as it has shown its propensity for moral health, peace and coexistence with Muslim brothers and all people throughout the world. These two things are parallel to each other.

    I should add that we support the diplomatic dynamism of the administration. As well as the preparedness of the Iranian nation in the arena of economy, domestic security, strengthening the Islamic Republic from the inside, national unity and military strength, we attach significance to the diplomatic dynamism and efforts of the administration on the issue of the recent trip and other issues. We support what our administration does and its diplomatic efforts and dynamism in this arena. Of course, in our opinion, some of the things that happened in New York were not appropriate, but we are optimistic about the diplomatic team of our dear nation and about our diligent administration.

    However, we are pessimistic about the Americans. We do not at all trust them. We regard the government of the United States of America as an untrustworthy government. It is an arrogant, unreasonable and untrustworthy government which is completely under the influence of the international Zionist network. The Americans have to compromise with the usurping and fake Zionist regime, which has occupied Palestine, for the sake of safeguarding the illegitimate interests of the international Zionist network. They have to show leniency towards this regime and they call it safeguarding the interests of America. This is while the national interests of America do not match what they do to support this fake regime. The government of the United States of America blackmails the entire world, but it is blackmailed by the fake Zionist regime. We see such facts and therefore, we do not trust the government of America. We trust our own officials and we are optimistic about them. We want them to take firm and careful steps by considering everything. They should not forget about national interests even for a single moment.

    What is important for the Islamic Republic is strengthening the Islamic Republic and the Iranian nation from the inside. What is important is the thing which has managed to protect this country since the first day until today: preserving national unity and paying attention to national dignity and the lofty ideals of the Islamic Republic. The Iranian nation is a dignified nation. The Revolution gave dignity back to the Iranian nation. The time when an American sergeant dared to slap an Iranian colonel across the face on Iranian soil is gone. The day when the officials of our dear country had to compromise with the greedy enemies is gone. The Islamic Republic made the Iranian nation dignified. This dignity prevails and it will increase on a daily basis. From now on, the responsibility of all officials and all the people of Iran is to preserve and defend this dignity. A nation can remain glorious and make progress with its original identity and with its dignity.

  504. BiBiJon says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    October 8, 2013 at 7:43 am

    Eliot Abrams concurs.

    Quote:

    The only way it [Israel] can absolutely prevent a deal is by striking Iran militarily. That is, it can argue against what it views as a bad deal, publically and privately, but it can’t actually prevent it. It has no veto power except to use its own military.

    Or they’ll {Israelis] think this deal is so bad, if one is struck, that they actually go ahead and do the military attack on Iran. I think many Americans would view that as a gutsy thing to do, and I think that the United States in those circumstances would be likely to support Israel in the aftermath. I don’t think it would cause any type of deep break.

    Read more at Middle East Voices: http://middleeastvoices.voanews.com/2013/10/quicktake-can-israel-block-a-deal-with-iran-99540/#ixzz2h87S58hu

    ————

    So, Eliot is saying US makes a deal which presumably satisfies her national interests, and then Israel launches an illegal attack to scupper that deal. And then, US whose national interests have been screwed, nonetheless will support Israel.

  505. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    M Ali-jan,

    Remember kos-khol hasn’t lived in Iran for over 30 years (after they smashed his Pink Floyd cassette- still hasn’t told us which album it was- probably doesn’t remember himself).

    He needs to use false analogies- like comparing the situation to that of Looney Muamar- to give the appearance of expertise.

    That’s what happens when you don’t have first-hand knowledge of something.

    Notice arm-chair Kissinger still refuses to give a numerical estimate of when and the probability of this supposed attack on Iran by the US and allies.

    I know, shouldn’t ask liberal arts students confusing questions with numbers-n-stuff.

    Just keep asking him what the probability of a US attack on Iran is in the next 2-10 years and watch how he keeps weaseling his way out of a straight answer.

    Pop Multiple Choice Quiz

    “What is the percentage probability of a military attack by the US and allies on Iran in the next 2-10 years?”

    1. 0-10.9%
    2. 11-20.9%
    3. 21-30.9%
    4. 31-40.9%
    5. 41-50.9%
    6. 51-60.9%
    7. 61-70.9%
    8. 71-80.9%
    9. 81-90.9%
    10. 91-100%

    My answer: 1

    What do you think?

  506. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    BibiJon,

    Sick, isn’t it? Turns out that even the most white hillbilly red-blooded American patriot- semi-automatic with scope, face-paint, camouflage pants, stars and bars cap- is just a pussy(cat) when it comes to defending his nation’s independence against the Zionists.

    Wake up white people! (he said smirking sarcastically)

    Turns out the evil white people of you-know-whose fantasy world are little chumps and punks (you know, in the way the word “punk” is used in prison) compared to the Israelis…

    Wake up white people! (hahahaha….)

  507. M.Ali says:

    BiB, that’s just it, if certain people have such strong convictions, then it shouldn’t be hard to give straight answers.

    I think we all have had discussions, where our questions have been left unanswered.

    Of course, living in Iran myself, I do feel like I’m missing out on all the fun stuff discussed by fyi and smith. =(

    My brother in law has come from Shiraz, and I’m planning to go out tonight, the stuff I’m thinking of for tonight is any of these options, Pardis Mellat Cinema, going to a concert at Milad Tower, park Ab Atash, check out the massage at Niloofar Abi, paintball at Koohestan club, Fasham now that the weather is amazing, or just take a walk at Bam Tehran and watch the bungee jumpers and just pretend I’ll take a jump but don’t when I get there. As you notice, no one of them includes the orgies which I would really like to introduce to my brother-in-law bachelar to, but I just don’t know where they are!

  508. Karl.. says:

    Bibijon

    “But, again. I take my hat off to you. You have been persistent, insistent, and adamant. You win. Well done. Do go on to other topics.”

    Well since you obviously become mad I guess my point about proof, reason, logic finally was taken.

  509. fyi says:

    M. Ali:

    I thank you for deatiled survey results that you have quoated.

    I do not believe that they contradict what I have been saying; namely the Islamic Disaster in Iran since the Islamic Revolution is an unattractive feature of Iran that repels many – inside and outside of Iran.

  510. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 8, 2013 at 5:32 am

    Weakness or strength are always understood in a relative manner in comparison to their subject nouns.

    Iran is a weak state not only compared to the United States, but also France and Russia.

    The weakness cuts across all areas of human life and endeavour and I do not think one needs to belaor that.

    Precisely because of all these weaknesses, certain 1950s era technologies must be adopted and put into usage to safeguard the state so that other weaknesses may be ovecome over time.

    Since you and a number of other commentators on this forum do not agree with me that Iran needs nuclear weapons for the reasons of state cohesion and stability, I think it best to leave it at that.

    I have made my position and my reasons for that quite clear and I do not want to belabor thme further.

    If I am wrong, Iran and her allied people would be in a comfortable situation.

    If I am correct, Iran would continue to exist and with her the allied people.

  511. M.Ali says:

    Fyi,

    I think you are simplifying the matter. I don’t think it is “the Islamic Disaster” that is repelling many, and I hoped that a look at the surveys would shed some light on it.

    For example, 72% of Pakistanis found Iran a good model to follow, EVEN THOUGH majority of Pakistanis viewed Arab culture better than Iranian culture. This shows that it is the MODEL that is attractive to Pakistanis, EVEN though they are not favorable towards IRANIANS as people that much.

    This is very interesting, because its hows it is the ISLAMIC REPUBLIC part of Islamic Republic of Iran that is appealing to them, and not the “Of Iran” part.

    This is not a surprise to me, because I remember, when I was in Dubai, an email forward that was passing the rounds. In that email, it compared Ahmadenijad and Musharaf, and it had side by side pictures, showing Musharaf sitting on a huge, expensive table, while Ahmadenijad was sitting on the ground and eating a simple meal. This email forward was by Pakistanis for Pakistanis, but shows that they are attracted to our “Islamic Disaster”.

    The issue is deeper and more complex. It would be interesting to dwell deep into it, and I would love to do it, and you have enough factual information to have an interesting conversation regarding it, but you come to the table with set conclusions, which makes it difficult to clarifiy complex situations.

  512. fyi says:

    M.Ali says:

    October 8, 2013 at 4:10 am

    The first thing this retired Pakistanti Air Marshall asked me was the why there is the Office of Supreme Jurisprudent; which caused me to go into a lengthy explanation starting with the Plato, through Al Farabi, then Mullah Sadra, then Khomeini and finally the political situation in Iran.

    I do not think I convinced him, the norms of a “Just” and “Legitimate” political order – in his mind at least – still were those of the French Republic.

    I think that in regards to your # 3 item: “The Iranian Islamic Experiment still in reform stage” – Iran does not need reform rather it needs for her leaders and executives and officials to conform to and fully realize the inherent capacities of the Iranian Constitution.

    You see, the Iranian Constitution is not fully implemented is not respected; I think Mr. Ahmadinejad was the one who tried the most to act according to the Iranian Constitution.

    I do not think that one could claim that the Iranian Constitution is fully implemented and now needs further reform when franchise is denied to the beardless crowd – per the second Majlis.

    I do not think that one could claim that the Iranian Constitution is fully implemented and needs reform when so many restrictions have been put on women – some through Majlis legislation that essentially treated women with contempt and some through arbitrary acts of the state – subject to no recourse.

    The deaths of detained individuals at the hands of the security organs of the Islamic State – from the late Mrs. Kazemi, to Kahrizak to the late Mr. Beheshti – are not to be addressed by reform rather by the application of the Law.

    Reform is needed when the institutions of the state have reached their full capacity and can no longer function in the face of changing circumstance.

    That does not obtain in Iran, in my opinion.

    What is needed is further elaboration of the articles of the Iranian Constitution to their full potential.

    For example, the Majlis has been active in passing foolish piece of legislation after another yet has been derelict in its duty of defining the legal structure of “Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice” – the 8-th Article of Iranian Constitution.

    The further elaboration of this article could – potentially – go a long way to address the imbalance between the political power of the state and the individual political power of the citizen of the Islamic state. For example, this article could be elaborated in such a way that any citizen could bring charges against any and all officials of the state.

    We are not going to the full realization of the “Independence, Freedom, Islamic Republic” by repeated exhortation and references to the “Letter to Malik Ashtar”.

  513. M.Ali says:

    Now its hard to find pre-Revolution polls and post-revolution polls from the Arab opinion on Iran, I did find some interesting info from USA’s opinions on Iran.

    Given all the anti-Iranian propaganda against Iran for the past 30+ years, it is no surprise that, according to Gallup polls, since 1989, around 80% of Americans have been unfavorable against Iran (lowest being 76% in 1991 and highest being 89% in 1989, most others fall between these two), while favorable view was around 10-15%.

    And given that Shah’s Iran was extremely close ally to USA, with none of the anti-Iranian propaganda, the poll numbers in 1976 are different. 50% favorable towards Iran, while 36% unfavorable. That’s it? During the best days of Iran-America best buddies days, only HALF of Americans liked Iran, and more than a third didn’t like Iran!

  514. M.Ali says:

    fyi,

    “The first thing this retired Pakistanti Air Marshall asked me was the why there is the Office of Supreme Jurisprudent; which caused me to go into a lengthy explanation starting with the Plato, through Al Farabi, then Mullah Sadra, then Khomeini and finally the political situation in Iran.

    I do not think I convinced him, the norms of a “Just” and “Legitimate” political order – in his mind at least – still were those of the French Republic.”

    I dont think we can use a retired Pakistani Air Marshall as a complete representative of Pakistani people. I would be very surprised if the majority Pakistani shared his viewed in regards to, “the norms of a “Just” and “Legitimate” political order…still were those of the French Republic.”

    Which is why poll results are interesting. We somehows can get information out of numbers, that we can’t get out of speaking to people around us, because our judgements and percecptions can easily be clouded by our own ideas.

  515. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 8, 2013 at 9:55 am

    Iran is weak compared to ….?

    US who’s narrative is delivered by drones is strong?

    Russia who’s perceived as willing to trade her own mother if there were takers is strong?

    France whose sense of self worth is blowing up a few places in Syria is strong?

    I guess you mean materially. But even there,

    Between 1980 and 2012 Iran (Islamic Republic of)’s HDI rose by 2.0% annually from 0.443 to 0.742 today

    Between 1980 and 2012 France’s HDI rose by 0.7% annually from 0.728 to 0.893 today

    Between 1980 and 2012 United States’s HDI rose by 0.4% annually from 0.843 to 0.937 today

    Between 1990 and 2012 Russia’s HDI rose from 0.730 to 0.788 today

    Data from http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

    I.e. Iran’s HDI has been growing twice as fast as any of your idols, despite sanctions, and increase in population.

    I guess you are being funny, responding to M.Ali that Saudi Arabia finds Iran’s “Islamic disaster” repellent.

  516. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 8, 2013 at 10:48 am

    Mere rhetoric.

    Look no further than the fact that the entire French Government is supported through taxation – that is the single most important indicator of a state’s strength.

    France certainly has its own problems, no doubt.

    Saudi Arabia lacks the national cohesion of Iran.

    However, there are 2 areas that both countries actually are smiliar:

    The percentage of women students in higher education is similar.

    In both countries, the state is caught in between those who think it is not sufficiently Islamic and those who think it needs to be less so.

  517. M.Ali says:

    BiBiJon, Iran is probably weaker than certain countries in terms of military penis size. Which, of course, we are, and its nothing to be ashamed of, I’d even say, its something we should be PROUD of.

    USA spent 682 billion in 2012. Iran spent 9 billion, around 1.3% of USA’s 2012 invoice. USA’s expenditure was 39% of the world’s expenditure! While ours was a measly 0.5% of the world’s share. USA used up 4.7% of their GDP for this, while we were fine with just 1.8% of our GDP.

    So, OF COURSE, we have smaller rockets than Americans, so maybe that makes us “weaker”, but do we really desire to be likee them? Do we want Iran to be like UAE, where it spends around 7% of their GDP on military, a country that has barely 1 million emaratis, compared to our 80 million Iranians, yet they spend double what we spend on military, even though WE are the country that is in constant threat?

    All these peace-loving, liberal, democratic, havens of freedom and tolerance EU countries spend more on military than we do, both in terms of total, and in terms of their GDP. Why is Greece spending 2.5% of their GDP on military?

    I’m sure if we weren’t threatened daily, we could spend even LESS on military. This does not mean, we open our doors to mass rape, but that we should spend minimum on DEFENSE (actual DEFENSE, not American “defense”, which is used for offense). Thats the Iran to be proud of and admire.

  518. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 8, 2013 at 10:56 am

    Data is ….. rhetoric. OK.

    So, forget HDI, Taxation is the be all, and end all. Using oil and other non-tax state revenues to raise HDI, build 48,000 kilometers of roads during Ahmadinejad’s term is just another form of taxation, methinks. Having the money go around a few times before it winds up financing the exact same thing is a distinction without difference.

  519. Sineva says:

    BiBiJon says:
    October 8, 2013 at 5:32 am
    I have never said iran was weak,nor did I argue that it needed nuclear weapons,I personally think that both its conventional forces and its increasingly credible japan option is enough,perhaps you have decided to take up the james canning approach to posting

  520. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 8, 2013 at 11:05 am

    Mere rhetoric, again.

    Iranian state is crucially dependent on oil revenue and not on taxation.

    Taxation as the major source of state income is the single most important criterion for gauging a state’s stregth. Take the trouble of investigating this criterion and you will find out for yourself.

    The oil income has created a lazy and uproductive population across all social strata in Iran.

    The labor productivity in the state sector, the largest employer in Iran, is estimates to be 8%.

    This will not do.

  521. kooshy says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 8, 2013 at 11:04 am

    Thank you, beautifully said, and explained.

    Iran, with almost lowest military expenditure in the region, is considered to be the strongest in the region, which makes all other states in the region spend to the teeth to match up and protect themselves from Iran, even although repeatedly Iran says has no intention of having war with anybody in or outside of the region.

    Why is that, why is Iran so strong and scary without spending on military so much?
    The answer my friend is in what he just admitted: COHESION, meaning = forming a united whole , it sounds that cohesion is a cheap scary armament that the only way you can have is when and if your people accept you and care to protect you.
    You meaning, their country, nation, system, culture, etc. doesn’t this cohesion thing sounds like the SL’s newest speech BiB just posted the translation, I was just reading his post, at the end of speech he talks about this.

    “What is important for the Islamic Republic is strengthening the Islamic Republic and the Iranian nation from the inside. What is important is the thing which has managed to protect this country since the first day until today: preserving national unity and paying attention to national dignity and the lofty ideals of the Islamic Republic. The Iranian nation is a dignified nation. The Revolution gave dignity back to the Iranian nation. The time when an American sergeant dared to slap an Iranian colonel across the face on Iranian soil is gone. The day when the officials of our dear country had to compromise with the greedy enemies is gone. The Islamic Republic made the Iranian nation dignified. This dignity prevails and it will increase on a daily basis. From now on, the responsibility of all officials and all the people of Iran is to preserve and defend this dignity. A nation can remain glorious and make progress with its original identity and with its dignity.”

  522. BiBiJon says:

    Sineva says:
    October 8, 2013 at 11:15 am

    When you said @ October 4, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    “The one big difference that I can think of [if Iran had nukes] would have been no threats of us aggression after the gas attacks and syria would not have had to sacrifice its chemical weapons to avoid an attack.”

    Well I kind of took this as meaning:

    a) Iran need nukes to deter attacks
    b) therefore, without nukes, Iran is weak and vulnerable.

    My mistake, glad you cleared it up, and sounds like we think alike. Canning is a hero of mine, I cannot even begin to emulate him.

  523. Ataune says:

    @fyi

    “Look no further than the fact that the entire French Government is supported through taxation – that is the single most important indicator of a state’s strength.”

    This statement is factually wrong. There are/were several example of states, even in the Western world, where the governing institutions are/were supported mainly by taxation but are/were inherently weak. The 4th Republic in France is a case in hand. The American system of governance during the civil war was a such failed state. The current Italian republic is another one. The weakness or the strength of a state is, unlike what you are saying, not necessarily based on the way its revenue are sourced but on its legitimacy: the degree with which its tenets are accepted by the population. But then, I read you saying:

    “namely the Islamic Disaster in Iran since the Islamic Revolution is an unattractive feature of Iran that repels many – inside and outside of Iran.”

    And then further down the road you seem to be “repenting” from what you just said by informing us, just like a revolutionnary zealot, that in Iran political reform is not needed since the full potential of the revolution is not achieved. Although you seem to strongly believe that politics since the “fall of man” is a game with no purpose, and the only way of salavation for Iranians is a new form of Islam mixed which is mainly inspired by the western individualism.

  524. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 8, 2013 at 11:22 am

    “Mere rhetoric, again.”

    Thanks for the warning.

    “Iranian state is crucially dependent on oil revenue and not on taxation.”

    Wow! Never! Really? Thanks for that nugget.

    “Taxation as the major source of state income is the single most important criterion for gauging a state’s stregth.”

    Singlest mostest of allest! My goodnessest. Throw away all other yardsticks.

    “Take the trouble of investigating this criterion and you will find out for yourself.”

    OK. And I assume if my troubles find the slightest disagreement with you, we can already call it rhetorical.

    “The oil income has created a lazy and uproductive population across all social strata in Iran.”

    Thank you for that non-rhetorical factual quantified statement. I learn something everyday.

    “The labor productivity in the state sector, the largest employer in Iran, is estimates to be 8%.”

    According to who? What is the comparable data from France? Is the state sector humming?

    “This will not do.”

    I don’t mean to pick bones with you. But your seeing the glass half empty gets tiresome sometimes.

  525. fyi says:

    Ataune says:

    October 8, 2013 at 12:17 pm

    In regards to the funding through taxation as the most important indicator of a state’s strength, we will have to disagree. The 4-th Republic was not the French State; the French state did not cease to exist before or after it.

    Likewise for the Italian Republic – the state is not weak but the governments are.

    And again, those states are stronger than Iran since they do not require oil revenue for their operations.

    I stand by what I have said – Legitimacy & Force (or the ability to exercise force) go together.

    In case of Iran, the state’s ability to exercise Force is limited by its funding mechanisms.

    Was Franco’s Spain weak or strong?

  526. fyi says:

    Ataune says:

    October 8, 2013 at 12:17 pm

    I believe political achievements for men who are in the State of Fall is and will be constrined by that state.

    To wit: there are limits to hwo things can be improved and that Paradise on Earth is not achievable by Man.

    A political order which firmly procliams itself to be “Islamic” and based on principles of Islam and Republicanism cannot – in practice – go on indefinietly abusing those principles.

    It cannot, in my view, accost and humiliate Muslims in their persons, in their property, and in their namus.

    It cannot arbitrarily violate the principle of republicanism by denying representation to certain segments of the population.

    Every Ramazan the head of Tehran Police as well as other cities threaten Iranians with dire consequences if they break their fast in public. In effect, these officials are creating Law out of the thin air, usurping the powers of the Majlis. And then these unelected officials are threatening the people – who are supposed to be sovereign per the fundamental principle of repulicanism.

    And there is no recourse – where can you go and complain when you are arrested arbitrarily because your hair is too long, or your namus is arrested because of her clothing?

    Reform requires changes in the Law, here there is no Law.

  527. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 8, 2013 at 12:26 pm

    Yes, you are picking a bone since you are hearing things that go against what you have come to believe.

    چو بشنوی سخن اهل دل مگو که خطاست

    سخن شناسی نیی جان من خطا اینجاست

  528. M.Ali says:

    Fyi, wouldn’t it be nice if you try to defend some of your stances using some actual facts, instead of putting down people’s statements by saying things like ““Mere rhetoric, again.”

    Here’s a post regarding your “revenue through taxation is the only thing that matters” new argument. Like usual, you take something incredibly complicated, make one simple black & white argument, dust off your hands, and close the case.

    We do a search in wiki and find “List of countries by tax revenue as percentage of GDP”

    We do a sort using TOP to BOTTOM, to see the validity of your statement. The highest total tax revenue as a percentage of gross domestic product is 49.3%. This should be the best country in the world, as per fyi criteria.

    This country is Zimbabwe.

    FYI’s Darling Nation, Fantastic France, is number 5, which is excellent, and hopefully, they will be able to surpass number 4, Cuba, in the future.

    Swaziland is higher than UK. Canada is lower than Turkey.

    Japan is lower than Dominica, Namibia, Macedonia, Barbados, Mongolia, and some other economically brilliant countries.

    Islamic Eden United States of America is also lower than ALL of those, plus can’t even pass Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica, or Bolivia, but the good news is that it is higher than South Korea.

    So, again, here are some actual FACTS.

  529. Ataune says:

    @fyi

    Governments are the political representation of the state. If they are not strong, the policy they try to advance and implement cannot be effective. De Gaulle’s return to the helm of politics in France in 1958 instaured a new republic with an overwhelmingly strong executive branch (some would say Capetian like). Before 1958 state insitution in France were weak and its legitimacy was questionable, eventhough taxation was supposed to be the main source of the finance receipts. Same goes with italy, since the instauration of a republic the state was purposefully created weak because of the will of the allied victors. Therefore, maybe even now that the state is part of the “european project”, it lacks the legitimacy to fuel a strong government.

    In Iran the state has the necessary legitimacy to be strong and to enable the executive to advance and implement its goals. One thing that can be said though is that these goals are not optimally advanced one, because of the internal issues that certainly need reform, and two, because of the political attacks by the external adversaries which has for purpose to deligitimize the state and the government and to make them appear weak, immeresed in corruption and incapable of resolving the economic problems.

  530. Ataune says:

    @ M.Ali

    Your search example render all my “theoretical demonstration” useless. Really smart !

  531. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 8, 2013 at 11:31 am

    Don’t worry, The Corporation still has more tricks up its sleeve even if petrodollar fails tomorrow: http://www.rajanews.com/detail.asp?id=155840

    Some points:

    * Islam encourages military spending/highest military preparedness and deterrence.

    * Islam encourages taxation as base for governance. Economic rent and rentiers are un-Islamic.

    * HDI is a mean aggregate of health, education and economic output. The countries at the top naturally will be growing slower than in the lower ranks. Simply because the nearer one is to 1 the more difficult it becomes to approach it. All three categories have been designed by West. Using western vaccines, medicines, MRI, Ultrasound etc etc to improve health/Using western physics, chemistry, biology for education/Using western economic system to drive economic output. I mean are these guys for real? The pond they are swimming in, is made, owned and maintained by West. Their contribution to it is non-existent at best and destructive at worst. All books one studies at engineering, medical, physics, chemistry etc etc universities are written by West. The economic foundations of the world run on western knowledge. In any Iranian hospital, the sick and the frail in hundreds each day are waiting outside the radiology department for their turn to meet the Toshiba CT-Scanner running on Texas Instrument components or the General Electric ultrasonograph machine running on US navy patents. Then they come out of there and talk about HDI and its improvement. Hypocrites.

    * The Islamic polities have not yet grasped the concept of knowledge based economy in which the humans are the main economic assets. An economy in which the assets are not oil, gas, minerals and such that can be sold to West/China/Japan enmasse and make a quick buck. The reason for that being the lack of trust of state on its citizens. The citizens are seen as slave children that have to be kept dependent on state as much as possible.

    * Over 85% of high technology exports of all Islamic countries (OIC) comes from Malaysia as per COMSTECH. And even that is mostly things like surgical gloves, outsourced from Japan component manufacturing etc etc. Islamic polities as a whole still pretty much think/act like Taliban in economic affairs, even the Iranian state. They still can not understand that it is the knowledge that is producing wealth in western countries. Not the other way round.

    * A comprehensive and transparent taxation system funding government kills famil-bazi and doost-bazi and kleptocracy. Specially in a democracy. Where rent rules, efficiency dies.

    * A single high technology western company say, a pharmaceutical company has more revenues than high technology exports of all Islamic polities combined, including Iran. These are not trivial matters.

    * Nuclear weapons bring the peace and tranquility that permit a nation to engage in more productive endeavors improving life (in a world with crazy white man going around). Without such peace of mind, the citizen of under threat nations will always be occupied with fear of losing their state, national cohesion and identity.

  532. fyi says:

    M.Ali says:

    October 8, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    You have to look at Direct Taxation and not indirect ones.

    See the references inside there :

    economics.mit.edu/files/5788

    .ids.ac.uk/gdr/cfs/pdfs/Wp341%20web.pdf

  533. fyi says:

    M.Ali says:

    October 8, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    I have not been to France in years but when I was there I really liked it.

    I also very much liked Italy and Spain – specially Madrid remined me of the old Tehran before it exploded into a city of 10 million.

    [The Madrid water tastes just like the water in Tehran used to taste.]

    And in all these 3 states a Muslim is safe in his person, property and namus more than in any Muslim state that you care to mention.

  534. James Canning says:

    Smith,

    You regard war with the US and other countries, as “peace and tranquility for Iran”?

    Absurd.

  535. James Canning says:

    M. Ali,

    The US squanders hundreds of billions of dollars each year, on unnecessary “defence”. Not used for attack. Not needed for attack, or defence from or to an attack.

  536. James Canning says:

    M. Ali,

    Total US “defence” spending in 2012 was above $1 trillion. Much of the spending is concealed in one way or another.

  537. kooshy says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 8, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    LOL, I can’t stop

    He really owe a big apology to everyone on this forum, for continually making perceived, assumed, unsearched, frictional statements, before he and his warm up’s white man act can be taken seriously again.

  538. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Notice how he went from denouncing Islamic “laws” to demanding there implementation as the only solution…glad to see he came around to my position.

    The most “legitimate”, or as Mahmud used to say- the “only”- legitimate state/government today in the world is the Islamic Republic of Iran.

    It has done more to satisfy the basic needs and to improve the standard of living, literacy and health of more people in a shorter period time than any state/government in the last 1,000 years of the history of nations.

    And that’s a fact. (Come on, let’s see if you can prove me wrong!)

    As far as “force”- enough to look around the neighborhood and see which country has stability, security and safety and which doesn’t.

    It is alleged that certain neighbors don’t find Iran unattractive (my experience has shown the opposite), well fuck-em, let-em stay in their shit-hole countries while we enjoy the best country in the world! (cue false jingoist outrage)

    Like I always say, if you want dunya go to Miami, if you want akhira go to the Vatican, if you want dunya and akhira go to Iran.

    Case closed.

  539. Ataune says:

    @fyi

    “You have to look at Direct Taxation and not indirect ones.”
    Why is that? they are both taxes on real and moral persons and should concur with your reasoning that the more tax the state receive the stronger she will be.

    The fact of the matter is that your statement is not true. It is not the percentage of the tax returns that determine the strength of the political system compared to each other but their legitimacy, and nowhere in the world this is derived from tax receipts. Obviously there is a relationship between the two. For ex you can say that the more you pay for some entity to render you a service the more expectation you have from it. But this doesn’t translate automatically into accepting its moral authority which at the end is the main pillar of the State institution.

    I think your main mistake is that you are confounding the desired political stability with strength of the state. While the former can be the goal of any political system and might be necessary for its ultimate survival it’s not the sufficient condition. As I said it is essentially the moral authority (ideological legitimacy) which conditions the strength of the state. By the same token you can not call for the strength and the stability while you try to undermine the legitimacy of the system, which sounds, once in while, like you are undertaking here.

  540. James Canning says:

    Bussed-In Basiji,

    Khamenei (in speech you quoted) says the US blackmails the world, and Israel blackmails the US. Many diplomats would agree with him, that Israel does manipulate the US in order to “blackmail” the world. Israel/Palestine issue is a prime example.

  541. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    A deal would not be “secret” if its elements are openly verifiable. In diplomacy, secrecy often is essential.

  542. James Canning says:

    M. Ali,

    You should ask Smith to explain his contention: that Iran needs nukes because it is weak, and can get them because Iran is strong.

  543. Karl.. says:

    James

    October 8, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    Who said secrecy isnt part of diplomacy?

  544. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    M. Ali,

    He keeps mentioning “person, property and namus”. Well let’s see: in Iran- for example in a mega-city like Tehran “person” and “namus”are safer than any of the shitholes he mentioned. I guess he hasn’t been on the Metro in Paris or in the bad parts of Madrid after midnight- do we even have to mention Italy and crime.

    What do you think happens to a poor shopkeeper in Italy if he doesn’t pay pizzo? I had a friend you lived in Milan for some years and he had to bribe his postman to deliver the fuckin mail! In fuckin Milan, not fuckin Palermo!

    And in terms of property- I mean I don’t think there is country in the world where property holders have as much rights as in Iran. Have you seen how landlords treat their mostajer? Have you seen how property owners hold on to prime real estate locations waiting for the price to go up without a peep from local city govts. Unheard of in western cities (except certain US cities).

    Ah yes, he could be referring to the nationalization of taghuti properties at the beginning of the revolution- hey maybe they did more than take his Pink Floyd cassette. But hey, that’s the nature of revolutions everywhere, nothing particular to Iran about that. Get over it.

  545. James Canning says:

    BiBiJon,

    Interesting comment by Wendy Sherman, that you linked. I think she is confirming Obama is willing to accept Iranian enrichment to low levels. Senator Rubio and other fanatical supporters of Israel right or wrong, will try to block it.

  546. James Canning says:

    Smith,

    since Khamenei himself says Israel uses the US to blackmail the world, are you going to tell us once again that the Israel lobby in the US is of little significance?

  547. fyi says:

    Ataune says:

    October 8, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    The reason that you must look at direct taxation is because it is much more difficult to collect than indirect taxation.

    That difficulty and a state’s ability to do so indicates the strength of the institutions of that state.

  548. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    M Ali,

    Re entertainment spots: Park-e Andishe south of Pol-e Seyyed Khandan also has nice programs in the evenings.

    A couple of weeks ago they had a group of lovely Indonesian ladies in their funky colorful hijabs playing those little wood xylophones- marvelous!

    The park has a nice cafe and a great restaurant in the farhang-saraa with a large balcony on the first floor- excellent Italian food, mix of funky instrumental tunes and Julio Iglesias, presents for the kids- Grandma and the kids love it!

  549. Ataune says:

    @fyi

    “The reason that you must look at direct taxation is because it is much more difficult to collect than indirect taxation.
    That difficulty and a state’s ability to do so indicates the strength of the institutions of that state.”

    That might be true, but even if so, it simply means that the State is powerful enough to collect the taxes in a nearly perfect way. I hope you realize that this is different from what we are discussing here, e.g. where is the source of the state’s strength: is it the tax revenue or something else like ideological legitimacy. Interestingly enough your contention might lead one to believe that since politics is a game for “fallen men”, the strength of the political system can only come from military and financial abundance.

  550. James Canning says:

    Anyone else notice that Israel’s Supreme Court has denounced the notion of “Israeli”, in sense of being a citizen of Israel? Remarkable.

  551. Smith says:

    Hamoun lake died too. Mostly because, Afghanistan has diverted rivers supplying it in violation of international law and its water treaties with Iran, backed by British and Americans: http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2013/10/131008_nm_hamoon_lake.shtml

  552. Smith says:

    How Hamoon had been killed by Taliban too before its current murder by British: http://www.payvand.com/news/02/dec/1058.html

  553. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 8, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    The second link is a subdomain at WWW2 and its shortening by removing www2 would render it in accessible. I put the correct link here: http://www2.ids.ac.uk/gdr/cfs/pdfs/Wp341%20web.pdf

  554. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 8, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    I think Greece – population 10.5 million – translates more books every year from foreign languages than were translated into Arabic during the last 1400 years.

    So, Iran wants to compete with Axis Powers and win while Irshad Ministry restricts free flow of ideas.

    Reminds me of a book that got rejected by Irshad Ministry since the lovers were not married.

    The censor asked: “Why could not these protogonists at lest enter a Sighe contract? Then I could let this book be published.”

  555. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Excellent piece by Sir Richard Dalton, that you just linked. On the way forward with nuclear talks.

  556. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 8, 2013 at 2:42 pm

    So, you finally see the validity of the presentation I made here years ago:

    That State of Israel is wrapping itself in a religious garb – “Israel” means the Jewish people (“Shema Israel…” – “Hear O Israel” as the famous prayer goes) and thus the State of Israel is “the Jewish People”.

    It is like Italy calling itself “Corpus Christi”.

    Since this is a primarily religious identity, it is not subject to rational resolution.

    Had the state been named “Hebrew Republic of Palestine” we would not be facing all these intractable religious issue.

    US, UK, France, Germany and others are waging a war against all of Islam in support of a religious project.

    We now have the clarity of the Supreme Court of Israel.

  557. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 8, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    It is a sad situation. Scientists, philosophers and scholars were freer to translate, write and publish books in Iran 1100 years ago, than are today.

    Japan during its modernization drive, had almost all western books translated to Japanese. No such endeavor can be seen in Islamic lands.

    I still can not understand why Islamic polities are so much against thinking, reason and logic.

  558. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 8, 2013 at 2:47 pm

    Americans killed Hamoon.

    They built and paid for a dam upstream in Afghanistan osentsibly to help Afghan agriculture.

    The dam, in fact, caused widespread slaination of the lands around the dam as water was collected by the dam.

    Americans claim that they were ignorant of the negative impact of the dam on agriculture in Sistan and had not anticipated the uselessness of the dam to Afghan agriculture when they concieved of it as part of US Aide.

    Suspicious minds in Iran – to this day – think that the dam was built for the main purpose of harming Iranian food security since Sistan was known as the “Grain store of Iran.”

    When agriculture was destroyed in Sistsan on massive sacle, very many Sistanis moved to Dasht-e Moghan to earn a living.

    That damage to Hamun Lake has been compounded by the persistent drought conditions in Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, and Syria – 18 of the past 34 years have been draught years which might persist indefinitely into the future as the Earth becomes warmer.

  559. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 8, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    The condition is not peculiar to Muslim polities.

    China, Japan, Thailand, India all suffered from the same malady.

    I think basically “Thinking” is hard and ppopulations as well as individuals get to a certain level of comfort and then they become – as Americans say – “Dumb, Fat, and Happy”.

    That would have been all fine had the world obliged Man and stood still.

    But it did not and does not.

    Adapt or become extinct.

  560. Ataune says:

    “I still can not understand why Islamic polities are so much against thinking, reason and logic.”

    Obviousely you are refering to the iranian political system. Can you please then explain what is your logic and rational in believing that such an “illogical, unreasonable and against-thinking polity” should seek the nuclear weapon? Aren’t you aware that the Israeli leaders are using the same public consumption readied premisses to advance their “arguments” on forcefully denying Iran the fuel cycle?

  561. James Canning says:

    Sineva,

    Are you once again claiming Gaddafi could have built nukes? In fact, he knew he could not.

  562. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Of course I agree with you there is a large element of foolishness and deception in the entire programme called “Israel”. My own view is that Israelis can be Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, etc etc etc. And Palestinians can be Muslim, or Christian, or Buddhist, etc etc etc.

    How absurd, that the Supreme Court of Israel will not accept the notion or concept of “Israeli”.

  563. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 8, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    “My own view is that Israelis can be Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, etc etc etc. And Palestinians can be Muslim, or Christian, or Buddhist, etc etc etc.”

    You be living in a fantasy world then.

    Just like the events subsequent to August 21th of 2013 that made it clear that destruction of Islamic Republic of Iran is the main aim of the Axis Powers, the Supreme Court of Israel established and made clear the religious foundations of that state.

    Now, there are 2 ways available to Axis Powers: persist in the current strategy of making Middle East safe for the religious fantasies of Jews by fighting all of Islam

    Or

    Try to reach a cease-fire with the world of Islam on Palestine.

    Peace will have to wait for the Palestine Republic – modeled after the sectarin system of Lebanon.

    I expect the Axis Powers to persist with their current course.

  564. Karl.. says:

    James

    If Kadaffi couldnt build nukes why then did UK want end to their nuclear program?

  565. kooshy says:

    Ataune says:
    October 8, 2013 at 3:34 pm

    These two trolls are now fully exposed on this forum, they no longer can engage to debate without being challenged and asked to show proof and reason. Therefore they rather avoid getting engaged with others.
    So now, more and more they can and will only engage each other (besides Gav) with statements which mostly and only show anything negative of Iran. This technique is used to have their negative statements be posted on the board, and the reason they make these unfounded statements on the board is, to make the reader believe that they are such a scholars of Iran and anything related to Iran that the reader shouldn’t dare to question their logic or evidence, and deep down to believe the reason they bring up these prophesies is due to their love for Iran and their fear that Iran is being ruined due to an illegitimate polity. Very much the same technique is thought and is practiced in a same mission by someone hired by Israel, or the Rajavi cult.

  566. fyi says:

    Ataune says:

    October 8, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    The ideological states; those with strong initial legitimacy, all failed in Muslim countries – if not elsewhere.

    One can look at the North African states created by this or that tribe which – per Ibn Khaldun’s observation – died when their Assabiyah ran out.

    You can look at the Shia Fatmids in Egypt – the same demise of the state in witnessed there.

    I cannot write a dissertation for you here; since you do not believe me and refuse to read and study the references that I posted, I find it useless to further discuss this topic with you.

  567. M.Ali says:

    Fyi,

    “I cannot write a dissertation for you here; since you do not believe me and refuse to read and study the references that I posted, I find it useless to further discuss this topic with you.”

    Another one that you refuse to discuss the matter with, because they are apparently too stupid to know that you are right,

    The only one that is left that you can talk to is Smith, and conveniently, you agree on everything 100%, which one wonders why you even want to discuss things with.

  568. Ataune says:

    @fyi

    I understand your feeling to terminate this discussion, but I have to bring this up before you do that, feel free to respond…

    “The ideological states; those with strong initial legitimacy, ALL failed in Muslim countries – if not elsewhere.” [emphasize is mine]

    In the sense you use the word “ideological state” this surely apply to IRI. My conclusion, backed by what you just said, is that you consider the IRI a failed state. Assertion with which I obviousely disagree.

    In other places in this blog, you have yourself explicitly stated that you are not questioning the legitimacy of the IRI and/or that you see the state in Iran acquiring now nuclear weapon as the best protection for her against adversaries.

    Since the topic of this blog is US/Iran relationship -from US angle as our two amiable hosts are Americans- don’t you think it is intellectually more reliable to divulge your real take on the nature of the Islamic Republic instead of turning around the pot like that. I’m personnally amenable to discuss with any range of opinions as far as those are presented honestly and without an inimical and hidden purpose against any country, in particular Iran.

  569. M.Ali says:

    Atuane actually made a great point, which I repeat,

    “Obviousely you are refering to the iranian political system. Can you please then explain what is your logic and rational in believing that such an “illogical, unreasonable and against-thinking polity” should seek the nuclear weapon? Aren’t you aware that the Israeli leaders are using the same public consumption readied premisses to advance their “arguments” on forcefully denying Iran the fuel cycle?”

    The problem isn’t that you usually don’t make sense, or that you change subjects, or that you simplify matters, or that you don’t provide logic, or that you refuse to listen to others, these problems are not as big as your OWN logical contractions.

    For example, Atuane makes an excellent point. If Iran is run by illogical idiots, then why do you recommend them to have nukes? Won;t they be dangerous, won’t they be so strong then, that their ISLAMIC DISASTER would ruin other countries?

    You claim that USA and Greece and Madrid are much more Islamic countries than IRI, then shouldn’t a God-fearing Muslim desire to weaken Iran, so that Muslims in the Islamic Disaster are freed? If you are a true Muslim and you truly believe that Muslims have it better in USA and Europe, then shouldn’t it be your religious duty to have USA cause a regime change in Iran, install an American system of governance, so that Iranian Muslims have a better Islamic life under the US-installed system?

  570. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    M Ali,

    On the one hand he deeply resents the Islamic revolution and the Islamic Republic- whose greatest sin in his view was giving the illiterate peasants and “brick-layers” (his quote) power.

    They overthrew the old khan-salar order, rejected western “civilization- which is clearly superior as evidenced by history- and put the needs of the community over “individual rights” (see Pink Floyd incident, hijab-issue obsession etc.).

    All of these constitute a “disaster” in his mind- especially because he was “forced” (chose to?) emigrate because he didn’t want to “waste” his life in Iran. I mean who has the patience to deal with revolution, war, rebuilding and all these dahatis running things now, really.

    On the other hand, he obviously can’t deny the great historical event that this revolution was and this Islamic Republic is- both in terms of Iran history itself, but also terms of Islamic history and global history. No, Jenabe fyi is smarter than that.

    In other words he is genuinely and deeply “conflicted”- called “goozpich” in Farsi- and that is why we see such seemingly contradictory statements.

    He needs to “let the gas out”, if you know what I mean.

  571. nico says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    September 30, 2013 at 2:44 pm
    “nico
    Velayati, Haddad and Qalibaf publicly and openly pledged that two would leave the field for the one with highest chance to win. Haddad kept his pledge, Velayati broke it and that’s why many people who previously respected Velayati no longer do so.”

    Precisely.
    And that makes even more likely that the SL ordered them to broke their pledge.
    And make the victory of Rohani supported or programmed by the SL.
    Not that the vote were rigged. Anyway Rohani won fairly.
    The SL is a spiritual leader but a shrewed politician as well. Suffice to see his curriculum.

    That is not spported by facts but that is logically satisfactory explanation.

  572. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Gaddafi knew he could not build nukes, in the sense he would not be able to get the job done before he was taken out. UK, France, Italy, Spain etc etc wanted better relations with Libya, and this meant Libya needed to get rid of CW and nuke programme (such as it was).

  573. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I think Israel needs to get out of the West Bank. I think Israel can pursue its religious delusions with little intererence from abroad, if Israel ends occupation of WB and Golan Heights.

    Notion of getting rid of Israel altogether is unrealistic. At this time. In my view.

  574. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I assume an opinion of the Israeli Supreme Court is not set in stone like the Great pyramids of Egypt. (That there is no such thing as an “Israeli”)

  575. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Israeli passports apparently state the nationality of the holder as: Israeli.

  576. Sineva says:

    James Canning says:
    October 8, 2013 at 3:41 pm
    I`ve never claimed gaddafi could`ve built nukes,his country lacked both the industrial/technological and human resources to do this,one only has to look at what iran and libya did with the equipment they both received from the khan network,iran mastered the fuel cycle and built an advanced nuclear industry,gaddafi stuck his in a warehouse where they sat gathering dust and eventually surrendered them to the west

  577. fyi says:

    Ataune says:
    October 8, 2013 at 5:15 pm

    My response containing the discussion of “ideological state” was caused by those who brought that topic up.

    I do not think in terms of “ideological state”; I do not find that conceptualization useful. I believe it gets one into interminable hair-splitting regarding what is an “ideology”, what is an “outlook” – Weltanschaung in German -, what is religion, and what is custom.

    The English state, the most successful state in history, can be argued to be an ideological state (it is technically a Theocracy and therefore, assuming religion to be a species of ideology, and ideological state) or one an argue that it is an ethnic state of the English, for the English, by the English, or may be argued to be a non-ideological state dedicated to piracy and plunder of others since the reign of Elizabeth I, or may be argued to be a representative government with a rule of law and respect for the rights of the individual (per the English Common Law).

    And as the English state goes so do other state.

    The claim that I posited, really a hypothesis well supported by observational evidence, had to do with the nature of state strength and the best indicator thereof; which is how well the state is supported by direct taxation.

    If someone wants to raise another hypothesis they are welcome to it but they need to go and marshal the evidence; and for the “ideological state” hypothesis the evidence is lacking, in addition to it being devoid of useful analytical content – in my view.

    My view towards the Islamic Republic of Iran is that it is a restricted – in the sense of Mexico from 1921 to 2000 under PRI – that has a long way to go to be both fully Islamic and fully Republican.

    It is a legitimate political order of Iran since it was freely chosen by the Iranian people.

    The arming of Iran by nuclear weapons is desirable for the purpose of the continuation of the state as well as the allied states and peoples. This is an essential requirement for state cohesion and durability in Iran regardless of the constitutional order under which Iranian people are governed.

  578. fyi says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 8, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    I have never stated that Iranian Islamic Republic has been led by irrational people.

    But you cannot gloss-over all kinds of foolishness simply because you agree with this or that cause.

    One has to maintain one’s commitment to Truth.

    I realize it is difficult to accept for you sitting in Iran, but the United States Government internally is acting more like what one would expect from an Islamic Government that any Muslim state existing today.

    There are 5 million Muslims in US – I think – and they are not being harassed or made insecure by the security organs of the US Government. Here is a Dr. Farzad Mostashari working for US Government – of Iranian ancestry –

    brookings.edu/about/media-relations/news-releases/2013/1003-farzad-mostashari-engelberg

    He is not being discriminated against by USG – in Iran he would have been shunted aside because he does not belong to the In-People; he does not conform to the requirements of having a beard and living a lie.

    Or take Mr. Barmak Nassirian, son of the famous actor:

    http://www.aascu.org/policy/BarmakNassirian/

    And the US Government or the local governments in US are not going around harassing young Muslim women to take off their head scarfs or change into blue jeans from Saris and other colorful Pakistani clothes.

    And then there is the matter of Charity – the Highest form of Love – that the US Government practices for tens of millions of people in the United States.

    Likewise in Spain or in Italy where you can see Muslims come and go as they please; wearing their head covers etc.

    They are safe in their person, in their namus, and in their property from the depredations of the state – no doubt.

    And then you have halal foods in upper-middle class super markets in various parts of France; catering to a professional cadre of Muslims who are well-adjusted to life in the French Republic.

    Foreign states do not have the power to do anything about internal situation in the hearts of Muslims in Iran or any other Muslim state. When someone refuses to conform to the Laws that he himself (or his associates) have passed, how can you cure that?

    As you may know, Ramazan in the Summer months in places such as Alberta could be quite a challenge.

    A discussion of the proposition “Let us fix Ramazan hours to that of Mecca’s latitude.” will get you killed in Pakistan – no doubt.

    Americans or Europeans or others cannot cure any of this.

  579. Sineva says:

    BiBiJon says:
    October 8, 2013 at 12:13 pm
    What I said on oct 4 was in response to a hypothetical question:what difference would a nuclear armed iran have made in syria

    “I cannot even begin to emulate him”
    I`m glad to hear it as I think one is more than enough,sometimes too much in fact

  580. Dan Cooper says:

    Bibi Getting More Isolated Over Iran War Rhetoric

    By Kourosh Ziabari

    Netanyahu once again made himself a laughing stock by parroting nonsensical, hallucinatory words about Iran’s nuclear program and its newly-elected President Hassan Rouhani.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36438.htm

    It’s an irrefutable reality that Israel’s survival hinges on an imaginary threat that can buy Tel Aviv sympathy and commiseration.

    This is what has helped Israel through more than six decades to assure its survival.

    Now that the conciliatory tone of Iranian President Hassan Rouhani has convinced the world that Iran poses no threat to any nation and that it does not intend to produce nuclear weapons, Israel is feeling that it’s being left with no such an existential threat which can produce an artificial and fake security for it.

    FM Zarif wisely pointed out that through the past 22 years, Israel has been constantly warning that Iran would be producing a nuclear weapon within six months, but that six-month deadline has never arrived and this clearly attests to the Israeli panic about a misperceived Iranian threat Israel has always bragged about.

    An Israeli expert once revealed this hidden truth to Trita Parsi: “You have to recognize that we Israelis need an existential threat. It is part of the way we view the world. If we can find more than one, that would be preferable, but we will settle for one.”

  581. M.Ali says:

    fyi says:

    October 8, 2013 at 10:11 pm

    Okay. Let me give you all that, and say you are 100% right. Which brings me back to my previous post. If you believe in what you say, than as a religious, pious Muslim, you should support USA against Iran, so that the Islamic Disaster Government falls, paving a way for a USA-styled governance, so that the Iranians are able to live in a society closer to true Islam.

    Not supporting USA, either makes you,

    1) Not wanting a better life for the Iranians
    -or-
    2) A bullshitter that does not even believe in what he himself says

  582. Sakineh Bagoom says:

    “There are 5 million Muslims in US – I think – and they are not being harassed or made insecure by the security organs of the US Government.”

    True if you ignore facts fyi.
    Facts like:
    http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/8/30/anger-apathy-overnypdspyingreport.html
    and
    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/05/mayoral-candidates-brooklyn.html
    and
    just type the following in a Google search : “Brooklyn police Muslim”

    Please provide a link to support your statement fyi.

  583. BiBiJon says:

    Djavad Salehi-Isfahani: http://www.lobelog.com/reading-rouhani/

    Key point on why continued sanctions will not break Iran:

    -Per capita income will probably fall from about 20% below Turkey today to 30% below, but still more than 50% above that of Egypt. This doesn’t foreshadow a collapse as much as it does a slow adjustment to more difficult circumstances.

    -Unemployment is approaching 20%, a record level, but will not surpass it. One reason is demography. For every person who entered retirement age in the last few years, 5 new people reached the working age. In the next few years this ratio will fall to 3, substantially reducing the pressure on the labor markets.

    -Thanks to a more realistic value for the rial, the local production of most consumer goods has become more economical for local producers. The easing of sanctions, especially on the banking sector, would be of enormous help to these producers, but this will not be the game-changer.

    Do read the whole thing thought.

  584. fyi says:

    M.Ali says:

    October 9, 2013 at 4:05 am

    I have stated my reasons for US Government to be more Islamic than the Iranin government domestically.

    I did not state that US Government is Islamic in her external behavior – “Neither Oppressive nor Oppressed to other countries”.

    As I told you before, these states are incpable of inducing the sort of change that, in my view, is needed.

    I also caution you to not fall into the trap of arrogating to yourself the powers of God and deciding or otherwise trying to determine who is or is not a good or a pious Muslim.

    That is a path of death and destruction and harm for eventually – per your judgement of who is not or is a Muslim – you will kill others.

    So far, more than 8000 souls have been murdered in Iraq’s violence this year. Very many were Shia Muslims who were killed by Sunni Muslims acting as suicide bombers.

    The suicide bombers were almost certainly God-fearing Muslims who prayed 5 times a day, sported a beard, had fasted in numerous Ramazans. Yet they had determined that some others, namely Shia, were bad Muslims deserving death. They probably went to their deaths expecting to be in Paradise.

    There is no qualitative difference between those suicide bombers’ designation of this or that group of people being insufficiently Islamic and those Muslims who indulge in the same sin in Iran.

    Nonwhatsoever.

    My advice to you is to concentrate on the fact that over the last 800 years Muslims contributed nothing to the well-being and happiness of mankind.

    It was the Christain doctors whose discoveries reduced drastically the death at child-bed of women; including Muslim women.

    It was the late Walt Disney with his cartoons that brought so much joy and happiness – albeit for a few moments – into the lives of children all over the world, including Muslim children.

    It was such “bad” and “impious” Muslims such as the late Delkash, the late Pouran, the late Haydeh who brought joy into the drab everyday lives of so many of us.

    You try to do better rather than going around making life miserable for others.

  585. fyi says:

    Sakineh Bagoom says:

    October 9, 2013 at 8:54 am

    So, in a country of 300 million you have picked on one incident that proves exactly what?

    In Islamic Iran, where is the public inquest regarding the death of Mr. Beheshti in custody of the state?

    Was he not a Muslim?

    Was he not a human being?

    Did he have no rights – حقوق ذاتی و کرامت انسانی ?

    And let us say America is bad, what have you done to make it better in Iran?

  586. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 9, 2013 at 9:32 am

    I think growth is expected next year at rate of 1.1 percent.

    Another reason for Axis Powers to try to get their concessions out of Iran now.

    They are miscalculating, however.

  587. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 8, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    That is a diplomatic requirement; you were evidently never exposed to this or that Jew from this or that country referring to Israel as “my country”.

  588. fyi says:

    All:

    Deatils on the kind of war US will fight against Iran – the Iraq Experience:

    http://www.fas.org/spp/aircraft/part08.htm

    We read:

    “As mentioned in an earlier section, Hyperwar planner’s carry out a tandem, if incongruous, strategy of decapitation and “ultra air interdiction.” In attempt to shut down Saddam’s military machine, the Coalition heavily targeted Iraq’s electricity and fuel production infrastructure. During Desert Storm, the allies flew over 200 sorties against the electrical plants and over 500 against 28 oil targets.(29) More than half of the 20 electrical generator sites were 100 percent destroyed. Only three escaped totally unscathed.(30) The intent, of this bombing is to deprive the Iraqi military the means to fight. By the end of the air campaign 42 of 53 Iraqi bridges were rendered impassable by Coalition attacks.(31) Modern forces are highly dependent on electricity for communications, radars and computers. Dependence on fuel is self-evident. Destroying the means of producing electricity is particularly attractive because it cannot be stockpiled.

    Unfortunately for the civilian population, the electrical and petroleum infrastructure in Iraq, as well as other countries, is inherently a dual use commodity. Desert Storm planners recognized this from the outset.(32) What they might not have recognized, was how extreme hardships this type of campaign would cause civilians.

    The bombing of Iraq’s infrastructure was so effective, that on either the sixth or seventh day of the air war, the Iraqis shut down what remained of their national power grid.(33) It was useless.

    Immediately following the war, Iraq was producing only 4 percent of its pre-war electrical capacity. Four months after the war’s end, this electrical generation had only reached 20 to 25 percent of the prewar capacity of approximately 9,500 megawatts. This generating capacity is roughly analogous to that of the 1920’s — before Iraq had access to refrigeration and sewage treatment.(34)

    The result of this destruction has led to severe malnutrition and endemic levels of typhoid and cholera. For the vast majority of Iraqis, there food is not refrigerated, their sewage is not treated, nor is their water purified. A Harvard team which visited Iraq shortly after the war projected that more than 170,000 children under five years of age will die this year from the delayed effects of the bombing.(35) The longer-term affects on the civilian population is anyone’s guess

  589. Sakineh Bagoom says:

    BiBiJon says: October 9, 2013 at 9:32 am

    I, of course, agree with Djavad Salehi-Isfahani, that sanctions will not break Iran. In harder times we used to say “naan va shast bargardoon”. Bread and cheese that is. “Shast bargardoon” was our affectionate way of referring to the way the thumb is bent spreading cheese on the bread.
    I know most Afghan workers in Iran even forego the cheese, eating only bread, in order to maximize their earnings.
    Iranian resilience is way underestimated in this regard methinks.

  590. Sakineh Bagoom says:

    fyi says: October 9, 2013 at 9:47 am

    I guess if you don’t see the iceberg, the tip of which I showed you, you are hopeless.

  591. M.Ali says:

    Fyi, allow me to respond,

    “I have stated my reasons for US Government to be more Islamic than the Iranin government domestically.

    I did not state that US Government is Islamic in her external behavior – “Neither Oppressive nor Oppressed to other countries”.

    However, if the US government is Islamic domestically, that is, more than Iranian government domestically, then it should be the logical conclusion that a regime change in Iran, with which new Iranian government, as inspired by USA, should be more beneificial to Iranians.

    Defending the IRI government against USA would be idealogically dishonest of you, because it would mean you are looking for a stance that would harm Muslims.

    That is, if you believe in what you yourself say.

    Which I’m starting to doubt.

    “As I told you before, these states are incpable of inducing the sort of change that, in my view, is needed.”

    However, given that USA and her allies seem to have a government closer to your Islamic Ideal and are much more capable of giving Muslims the Islamic government they desire, and while Iranian government has only been able to produce an Islamic Disaster, then it is DISHONEST of you to defend Iran against the west.

    It would be easier to engage with you, if you were honest with your own stances.

    “I also caution you to not fall into the trap of arrogating to yourself the powers of God and deciding or otherwise trying to determine who is or is not a good or a pious Muslim.”

    Thanks for your caution, but can you please find me one quote from me, in any of the hundreds of posts I have made where I “arrogate to myself the powers of God” or if I have ever deteremined who is or who is not a pious muslim?

    Like usual, it seems you just scan other people’s posts, so interested in your own philosophy, that you just look for a few keywords in our posts to start , what you yourself assume, to be a beautiful and philosophically beautiful post Full of Words and Phrases That Start With Capital Letters, without refusing to actually respond to ANY of our key points.

    “That is a path of death and destruction and harm for eventually – per your judgement of who is not or is a Muslim – you will kill others.”

    Again, you make up something in your head, and then continue from then on, in whatever paths you want to wander in. Thanks for your pointing out the consequence of an action I wasn’t engaged in.

    Please allow me to try to use similiar techniques.

    I cautioun you not to smash your head against the wall. That is a path of head injury.

    How useful was that?

    “So far, more than 8000 souls have been murdered in Iraq’s violence this year. Very many were Shia Muslims who were killed by Sunni Muslims acting as suicide bombers. “

    Oh, so we are in the point of conversation where we bring up random facts to defend an argument that we aren’t even talking about? Sure, I love that game! Let me contribute!

    If you yelled for over 8 and a half years, you would have produced enough sound energy to heat one cup of coffee!

    If you pet a cat 70 million times, you will have developed enough static electricity to light a 60-watt light bulb for one minute!

    Banging your head against a wall uses 150 calories an hour!

    “The suicide bombers were almost certainly God-fearing Muslims who prayed 5 times a day, sported a beard, had fasted in numerous Ramazans. Yet they had determined that some others, namely Shia, were bad Muslims deserving death. They probably went to their deaths expecting to be in Paradise.”

    By this part of your post, you just seem to have wandered way off base, and are now arguing what exactly? That suicide bombers are bad? That they are harming muslims while following Islamic tenents? Are we just randomly spouting info from our head?

    Okay, let me post this poem from Omar Khayyam.

    شیخی به زنی فاحشه گفتا مستی

    هر لحظه به دام دگری پا بستی

    گفتا شیخ هر آنچه گویی هستم

    اما تو چنان که می نمایی هستی ؟

    A religious man said to a whore, “You’re drunk,
    Caught every moment in a different snare.”
    She replied, “Oh Shaikh, I am what you say,
    Are you what you seem?”

    Feel free to use the above poem for your next post. It fits very nicely in your arguments against stances which none of us are taking, but you have made it up in your head, because its so easy to defend.

    Because why debate the actual points? It sounds like it would be hard!

    “There is no qualitative difference between those suicide bombers’ designation of this or that group of people being insufficiently Islamic and those Muslims who indulge in the same sin in Iran.”

    I’m not sure at all what point of mine you are arguing against, but I feel like you somehow have made up some kind of position for me (that I support suicide bombers, maybe? That I give distinction between who is a good muslim or not? that I am a huge fan of beards and liked Beards on facebook?)

    I mean, I’d love to point out your “no qualitative difference” part, but I’m not sure why I should, because I’m not even arguing about any of this, and none of my posts were about that.

    “Nonwhatsoever.”

    You are not only not on the same page with people you debate with, but you are not even in the same book, or room, or time zone, or mental facilities, it seems.

    “My advice to you is to concentrate on the fact that over the last 800 years Muslims contributed nothing to the well-being and happiness of mankind.”

    This would be a great point and very relevant, if my previous post was,
    Fyi, Muslims have contributed a lot of things to the well-being and happiness of mankind in the last 800 years!

    Then you could have responded with that statement, and it would have made sense.

    But please try to find one of my post that has anything to do with Muslim’s contributions to well-being and happiness of mankind in the last 800 years. This is a whole new conversation and debate.

    “It was the Christain doctors whose discoveries reduced drastically the death at child-bed of women; including Muslim women.

    This is what FYI thinks M.Ali’s previous Posts was,
    “I spit on Christian doctors!!”

    Sure, I never talked about Christian doctors, but wait, maybe I DID, and I just DON’T KNOW IT.

    “It was the late Walt Disney with his cartoons that brought so much joy and happiness – albeit for a few moments – into the lives of children all over the world, including Muslim children.”

    Did I enter an alternative dimension where Evil M.Ali posted, “I hate Mickey Mouse because he doesnt have a beard and enjoy suicide bombing”? Because otherwise, I’m not sure why fyi is talking about this.

    “It was such “bad” and “impious” Muslims such as the late Delkash, the late Pouran, the late Haydeh who brought joy into the drab everyday lives of so many of us.

    You try to do better rather than going around making life miserable for others.”

    I wonder what Evil M.Ali in alternative dimension has been up to. It appears that he has been going around making life miserable for others by hating on Disney cartoons, kicking Christian doctors on the balls, and sticking beards on everyone’s faces.

    Fyi, I hate being rude online, because its pointless, but I think it warrants one here. Your post has put so many words in my mouth that it is a good thing its an online forum, otherwise I would have suffocated by now.

    None of what you have said about me, I have even alluded to.

    I don’t want to start this sentence by saying, don’t take it personally, because you should, but you are one of most dishonest, ignorant, and disillusioned people on this forum. You absolutely refuse to even process other people’s posts, you are so high on your pedestal, that you don’t even see us lowly people, which is no wonder what you don’t even know what exactly you are responding too.

    I have tried to engage you using NUMBERS and clear statements, so we don’t get confused in rheotric (which you insult others with, but you swim deeply in), but you absolutely refuse to even respond too.

    I also usually try to keep my posts using simple, verifyable statements, sticking to few points, to make it easier to come to a conclusion. Again, you refuse to engage productively, instead making up things.

  592. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 10:04 am

    Deatils on the kind of war Iran will fight against US – the Iraq Experience

    Nothing will be left of the Persian Gulf countries’ oil/gas production capacities, or tanker ports, or tankers, etc.

  593. fyi says:

    M. Ali:

    You had used the following rhetorical device against me: “…than as a religious, pious Muslim, you should…”

    You have arrogated to yourself to write a perscription for my behavior.

    The arrogation of God’s power of judgement is inherent and implicit in that single turn of phrase.

    Nevertheless I asnwered you clearly.

    Yet you insited on that line of questioning.

    Which I found irritating.

    Personal insults such as “most dishonest, ignorant, and disillusioned people on this forum” is not going to get you anywhere.

    When I stated that US Government is more Islamic than very many Muslim governments, you, rather than trying to comprehend and understand why that is so, took a rhetorical tack against me – “shoot the messenger” was your response to the bearer of bad news.

    May be you should study the structure of the American Government and learn from it; they are clearly doing something right – Dr. Nasr, Dr. Mostashari, Mr. Mara’ashi – people of Iranian ancestry who worked for US Government and did not suffer discrimination while in Iran they would be discriminated against and would never reach the positions they did in US.

    Contemplate that for a while.

  594. BiBiJon says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 9, 2013 at 10:20 am

    You forgot to say:

    Pompous, affectedly and irritatingly grand, solemn, self-important, imperious, overbearing, domineering, magisterial, pontifical, sententious, grandiose, affected, pretentious, puffed up, arrogant, vain, haughty, proud, conceited, egotistic, supercilious, condescending, and patronizing.

    But I’m busy researching tax revenue vs state strength vs government legitimacy, as per instructions I received yesterday.

  595. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 10:49 am

    Hows about you contemplating this:

    You keep unjustly denigrating public servants in Iran. And, in the same breath you chastise others for arrogating to themselves judgement over others.

  596. M.Ali says:

    Fyi,

    “You had used the following rhetorical device against me: “…than as a religious, pious Muslim, you should…”

    First of all. The context of my post shows that I am not making judgemental calls if you are a muslim or not.

    My sentence was

    “Okay. Let me give you all that, and say you are 100% right. Which brings me back to my previous post. If you believe in what you say, than as a religious, pious Muslim, you should support USA against Iran, so that the Islamic Disaster Government falls, paving a way for a USA-styled governance, so that the Iranians are able to live in a society closer to true Islam.”

    Let me clarify.

    As can be obvious, I did not say, you are a good muslim, because of certain actions, or you are a bad muslim, because of certain actions.

    Therefore, your refute against me makes no sense.

    Instead I said, “If you believe in what you say, than as a religious, pious Muslim, you should support USA against Iran, so that the Islamic Disaster Government falls, paving a way for a USA-styled governance, so that the Iranians are able to live in a society closer to true Islam.”

    What am I arguing here? Am I arguing your Islamic character based on certain traits, for you to then defend it by bringing up Walt DIsney, Christian Doctors, and Suicide Bombers?

    No, instead I’m relying on your OWN image of yourself.

    From what I gather, you consider yourself religious, pious, and a Muslim. I’m saying that if you think yourself as such, and then as such a person, it would be logical for you to defend Muslims.

    “You have arrogated to yourself to write a perscription for my behavior.”

    A prescription nof your behaviour is based on the posts which you seem to portray yourself as.

    Meaning, when I raise a logical contradiction, by me saying that,
    “If you believe in what you say, than as a religious, pious Muslim, you should support USA against Iran, so that the Islamic Disaster Government falls, paving a way for a USA-styled governance, so that the Iranians are able to live in a society closer to true Islam.”

    I’m bringing up several points,

    1) If you believe what you say
    2) As a religious, pious Musim (which is, how I assume you view yourself, or strive too)
    3) Iran is an Islamic DIsaster
    4) USA is a better government for Muslims

    If these points are what you believe in, then the conclusion falls apart in your other stances, such as your defending of Iran against USA, because it would, from that foundation, mean you are harming Iranian Muslims.

    Now, you could fix the logical contraction by just changing one of my foundations, that is,

    1) If you believe what you say –> I do not actually believe what I say
    2) As a religious, pious Musim (which is, how I assume you view yourself, or strive too) —> I am actually not religious at all, nor Muslim
    3) Iran is an Islamic DIsaster —> Iran is anot an Islamic Disaster
    4) USA is a better government for Muslims —> USA is not a better government for Muslims

    If we change only one of them, then the conclusion of FYI defending Iran against USA makes sense. But as long as those four points remain, then the conclusion makes no sense.

    “The arrogation of God’s power of judgement is inherent and implicit in that single turn of phrase.

    It sure is, if one does not understand the meaning of phrases.

    “Nevertheless I asnwered you clearly.

    Yet you insited on that line of questioning.

    Which I found irritating.”

    Unfortunately, you have never answered any post clearly. Since you love cautioning and advicing us, let me return the favor. I cation and advice you to at least not fool yourself.

    “Personal insults such as “most dishonest, ignorant, and disillusioned people on this forum” is not going to get you anywhere.”

    I don’t believe in personal insults, and I rarely use them online, but I think it is fair to say that you have been insulting yourself. To me, making up imaginary stances for people and putting words in our minds, is not only insulting ,but even more insulting than what I said to you.

    Also, frankly, your holier-than-thou attitude is frankly, also, very insulting.

    “When I stated that US Government is more Islamic than very many Muslim governments, you, rather than trying to comprehend and understand why that is so, took a rhetorical tack against me – “shoot the messenger” was your response to the bearer of bad news.”

    No, that’s not it at all.

    That’s exactly where you are wrong. I don’t care about that part at all, because i never argued that.

    I only mentioned that for someone who seems to be so interested in Islam and the Right Islam and the Right Government of Islam and the Right way of Treating Muslims, then you should, logically, be hoping that the country you claim to love, is run by the Right Choice, not the Wrong Choice. I’m pointing out your own logical contradiction. I’ve actually not given my own beliefs.

    Interestingly, I’ve noticed this with you and Smith. I almost never respond to you guys in what I actually believe in, just point our your contradictions, and it drives you two in some incoherent illusions in what kind of person I am.

    Whether Iran or USA is better for Muslims is not something I have talked about, or made any statements about. I’d love to get into that, it seems like it would be interesting, but I have no strong feelings either way about it.

    What I said again and again, is your own illogical stances. Not that it is even right or wrong, but that it CONTRADICTS ITSELF.

    “May be you should study the structure of the American Government and learn from it; they are clearly doing something right – Dr. Nasr, Dr. Mostashari, Mr. Mara’ashi – people of Iranian ancestry who worked for US Government and did not suffer discrimination while in Iran they would be discriminated against and would never reach the positions they did in US.”

    Again, see, this is not at all what I have talked about. Have I talked about Iranians being discriminated in USA? Have I talked about Iranians in USA at all that much in this thread? Have I argued their lives? Have I compared them to Iranians living in Iran?

    If we were having this conversation, believe me, you’d know. I’d look first at the criteria of their lives we were stopped to compare, we’d look at statistics, we’d then compare it, and analyse the results. It would be fun and interesting.

    But it is not something this conversation was about.

    “Contemplate that for a while.”

    Thanks. Do you want me to contemplate on other stuff that has nothing to do with our debate?

  597. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 9, 2013 at 10:57 am

    Yes, Truth hurts.

  598. M.Ali says:

    Bibijon,

    “But I’m busy researching tax revenue vs state strength vs government legitimacy, as per instructions I received yesterday.”

    Oh, that was yesterday, you know how fyi is, by now, that’s all forgotten, today we’ll be talking about completely new stuff.

    I mean, you have to at least respect James Cannings for being consistant.

    But with fyi, one day USA is evil, the next day they are the best thing since taxes were invented, and today the topic seems to be, The Correlation of Walt Disney to Islamic Character of State or something like that.

  599. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 11:17 am

    I’m sorry to butt in. M.Ali is demolishing you, and I’d hate anyone to think you were being ganged up on.

    Nevertheless, you deserve it.

    So now you arrogate to yourself to know the truth? That on top of taxation, and host of other one liners you’ve gleaned from somewhere, and then pompously instruct anyone who rightly questions your half-arsed pontifications, to go contemplate, study, etc. because the grander than grand fyi does not have time to write dissertation-length responses. All to leave the impression that you in fact studied all these arcane academic stuff.

    Forget contemplating. Go take a hike.

  600. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 9, 2013 at 11:34 am

    He is not demolishing me; he is throwing rhetoric.

    I have answered him and he is not happy with what he has heard.

    And neither are you, evidently.

    I am stating my opinions and am too old and jaded to participate in sophmoric exercises of endless debate.

  601. fyi says:

    M.Ali says:

    October 9, 2013 at 11:26 am

    I never stated that USA was Evil.

    It is a testament to the Fallen Nature of Man that everything he constructs is, in one way or another, defective.

    In Exile from Heaven, trying to build Heaven on Earth, and failing every single time.

  602. Karl.. says:

    James

    Actually it was rather that Libya didnt have the resources to have a nuclear program. It was Kadaffi that wanted better relationship with the west, which is more than obvious now on how the same west treated him when the protests began in Libya.

  603. M.Ali says:

    I absolutely love the internet for providing the opportunity to google stuff which makes me able to post something like this.

    See, I hate it when someone responds to something with stuff like, “Yes, Truth hurts.” without any else, because it proves that they are all the adjectives that Bibijon so very nicely attributed to fyi.

    A while back said fyi & smith dicuss points exactly like our good old friend and probably by now deranged psychopath Sassan. Here, now I’ll actually prove it,

    Do a google on truth hurts and iran and what comes up?

    A profile on Sassan.

    Here is the link:
    mondoweiss [dot] net/profile/sassan

    Here is what he says, “The truth hurts, doesn’t it?”

    Of course, people who are unable to engage in debates always resort to that.

    Just go back and see how sure they are that only THEY have the truth, and like New Age Prophets, we are idiots for not seeing it.

    Just search “truth” in these threads and see what kind of statements and from come up,

    Smith: “But hubris does not allow them to see the truth.”

    Smith: “This is the bitter truth. ”

    Smith: “Unfortunately, and I am sorry to say this, but since it is the truth, I have to”

    Smith: “This is the truth.”

    Fyi: “One has to maintain one’s commitment to Truth.”

    Fyi: “Nary a peep out of any one against these businesses that Promote the Lie and Negate the Truth.”

    Smith: “Truth is bitter.”

    Smith: “These are the truths.”

    Smith: “I said the truth.”

    Smith: “In either case, truth will neither benefit or suffer because of your decision. It would still remain over there. ”

    Smith: “Truth will stand regardless of your drivel. Rest assured of it.”

    Smith: “This is the truth.”

    Fyi: “Choose Truth or Choose Outward Islamic Piety.

    For centuries, Iranians chose “Outward Conformance to Islam” as a sign of Piety, preferring it to Truth.

    England chose Truth.”

    Smith: “I am teaching my compatriots self criticism and how to be truthful.”

    Smith: “I tell the truth. It is bitter.”

    Smith: “Those who can think and have the capability to reason with logic already know the truth. You are not among them. ”

    Smith: “I do not care. I only care about truth which I speak unhindered.”

    Fyi: “If they admit the Truth…”

    Smith: “Welcome to the truth”

    We can go on and on. All are direct copy and paste, with no changes. Aren’t they just beautiful when placed like that?

    Just for fun, here are a few gems from Sassan too,

    “So the truth must be withheld just because it doesn’t agree with your preconceived notions and ideology? Fantastic.”

    “This regime is one of terror and only of terror. The truth must be told of this terrorist Islamic Imperialist regime.”

    “All they [MEMRI] do is provide translation services to reveal the truth about evil ideologies.”

    Champions of Truth these guys are. Like Three Jesuses given to us by God at the same time. Lucky us.

  604. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 11:42 am

    “[M.Ali} He is not demolishing me; he is throwing rhetoric.

    He has poignantly demonstrated internal inconsistencies in your arguments. You refuse to fix the inconsistencies, either by elaborating what you mean, or by taking back a contradictory point.

    Answer M.Ali directly, or hide behind your proclaimed truth.

  605. BiBiJon says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 9, 2013 at 11:26 am

    “Oh, that was yesterday, you know how fyi is, by now, that’s all forgotten, today we’ll be talking about completely new stuff.”

    I hope he tells me he was just throwing up “rhetorical” chaff, and engaging in “sophomoric exercises” before I get blind reading up on taxation.

  606. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 11:44 am

    It is useless to engage with these people. They do not have thought processes required for a logical discussions. Much like the many in third world countries. No wonder every year quarter of a million of the most educated leave Iran (never to return). When they get sick, they desperately search for an American/French educated specialist doctor. They would never trust their lives and their children’s lives with a basiji doctor who got to university not because of his abilities but as a form of bribe. This is the truth. After all you can only trust American/French science when you need a heart valve surgery for your 14 year old son. These people are hypocrites.

    Almost half a million people have been killed on Iran’s roads in the past three decades. Another million were permanently maimed one form or another. The road causalities in Iran are higher than the war’s. But you will never find any laboratory or research done in Iran to solve this problem and give humanity a solution. They are a bunch of hypocrites. They can not provide humanity with anything towards its betterment. Compare this to Americans: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24464480

  607. M.Ali says:

    Smith, regards your last post, would you say that what you are saying is The Hard Truth, The Bitter Truth, or the Inconvenient Truth?

  608. M.Ali says:

    However, I’m thrilled that you were able to slip in “This is the truth.” in your post. After my post of your Smithisms, you saying “This is the truth” in your last post is almost meta, like you are parodying yourself, and its brilliant!

  609. Smith says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 9, 2013 at 12:28 pm

    As I had said much earlier, people like you and your ilk are incapable of logical discussion, even evident here. I am safely behind a screen protected by technologies developed in the west. People like me or fyi, would be summarily tortured and killed in a dungeon in Iran if ever we try to speak publicly.

    The amount of tohmat, lies, and personal attacks in this virtual board is only a proof of that. Criticism is not tolerated one bit. You people slit the throat of anyone who disagrees with you. And Sunnis are even worse (you are one as per your own admission).

    Only God can be the arbiter-er between us. And I refer to Him this matter. People who are in power have to answer for their actions and whatever comes out of those actions. I will answer for my deeds but since I am not in power, I am only responsible for my personal actions. I try to be truthful and will not engage in tohmat, lies and slandering like you and your ilk. For me God is enough. I am not going to stoop to the level of some posters here who use the most filthy language imaginable disrespecting my father and mother. They are hypocrites. They do not even know the most basic tenants of Islam eg. having nice akhlaq. On such matters I refer to God for his arbitration since he is the Most Just, the Best Judge and the Most Powerful Punisher.

  610. kooshy says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 11:42 am

    “I am stating my opinions and am too old and jaded to participate in sophmoric exercises of endless debate.”

    Weren’t you and your white Smith man warm up act that a while back on another tread called us old and degenerate and at the end of our road and the new younger generation of Iranians want to have nukes?

    Is this another one of your contradictions or just a simple lie to hide a troll’s camouflage?

    ===========
    Bibijon

    Trolls are not equipped to give desertions, they try not to get in debates on specifics, they jump and change subjects when they get cornered. But their mission is to give one liners in form of a prophesy coming from havens, one liners that sound as is coming from a true scholar of the subject. They try not to say and use “in My Opinion”, unless and when they are asked for a backup, is just then when my opinions becomes a way to escape the corner. The only other time they use In My Opinion is when they have captured their audience in such way that their opinions will be the actual proof (seal of standard) to back that opinions without being questioned by the admirers.

  611. Ataune says:

    @fyi

    What I understand from M.Ali’s criticism is that your statements are generally inconsistent. It is something that I agree with.

    I believe this incoherence is mainly due to the contradictions in your system of belief. Your thoughts seem to be formed from a mixture of Iranian nationalism and some Christian reformism with the aim of a Soroush-like change in the Muslim world.

    Maybe those are simply incompatible thought-oriented actions either currently or forever. Maybe the best way to go forward in Iran and the Muslim polity is the path we are on right now – which, by the way, doesn’t look as dreadful and deadlocked as you care to paint it.

    The only sure way for you to know the “truth” is to let your reflexions be “harshly” criticized here and then to give time to the time and check the facts being screened-off from fantasies. Who knows… you might feel younger too.

  612. James Canning says:

    “Russia and Cina, both P5 members, have pressed the US and the European Union to begin scaling back sanctions on Tehran in an effort to underpin negotiations with Mr. Rouhani’s government.”
    – – Wall Street Journal today (Oct 9)

  613. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Gaddafi said Libya would not be allowed to build nukes. And yes, doing it would not have been easy even if the virtual certainty of being taken out did not obtain.

    Gaddafi was doing very well indeed, with his programme of closer relations with a number of European countries. Prior to outbreak of the revolt.

  614. Smith says:

    Germany provided almost all of the chemical weapons Saddam used on Iranians. Where is gheirat here: http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13920717000168

    Or, is your gheirat only for beating women and torturing unarmed people?

  615. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    In event of hostilities in the Gulf, we can be sure the US will not be engaging in a repeat of the 1991 Gulf War. Totally different situation.

  616. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I am keenly aware some Jews who are citizens of one country or another, say they are in effect Israelis, or that Israel is “their country”.

  617. James Canning says:

    Smith,

    Wall Street Journal today: “In an opening salvo in the negotiations, Tehran is expected to ofer to stop enriching uranium to levels of 20% purity. . . “

  618. fyi says:

    Ataune says:

    October 9, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    Please take the trouble of quoating my statements that contradict one another.

    One is never too old to learn.

  619. BiBiJon says:

    What have the Muslims done for the last 800 years
    =============================================

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

  620. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 9, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    Yes, the same or a similar lobby delayed the introduction of Renault into Iran by 4 years.

    When Reneault finally entered Iranian market, the siege war against Iran was just beginning and they could not stay eventhough they had invested heavily.

  621. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 3:20 pm

    Have a look at this: http://rt.com/op-edge/european-companies-iran-sanctions-943/

    Reminiscent of The Great Game, the nuclear powers are playing with each other in order to rape Iranians (of course with collaboration of corrupt people within Iran).

    This happens too often to countries that do not have the military power to protect themselves and the science and technology to take care of the minimum requirements and needs of the nation.

  622. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 9, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    I very much doubt that there would any useful level of lifing US or EU sanctions against Iran that would be of substantial business interest.

    Decades from now; there could be some opportunities – but not in next 5 years at the very earliest – in my opinion.

    spare parts etc. yes, new investments no.

  623. Karl.. says:

    James

    Neocon Wallstreet journal isnt really a great source.

  624. BiBiJon says:

    What have the Muslims done for the last 800 years
    =============================================

    Well actually http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2013/10/9/investigators_from_ferdowsi_university_zero_in.htm

  625. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 3:56 pm

    Yeah, that is pretty much it. Basically they look at Iran as a piece of cake to be eaten.

  626. BiBiJon says:

    What have the Muslims done for the last 800 years
    =============================================

    Or this http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20291-iran-is-top-of-the-world-in-science-growth.html#.UlW2RlNdxbM

  627. Smith says:

    Iran will be one of the most severely affected countries by climate change according to latest UN report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24292615

    Towards the end of this century the average temperature on Iranian plateau will increase by 8 degrees centigrade. Water is going to become even more scarce. As estimates have it, just about this time, Iran will also run out of its oil and almost its gas. With no water, mass starvation and deaths will kill Iran. Unless of course Iran is a nuclear power by that time with large nuclear installations for energy and desalination purposes and nuclear weapons pointed at England for its defense.

  628. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 9, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    I am pleased to see all of that.

    It is a good start but 800 years of lassitude cannot be overcome by 34 years of the Islamic Republic.

  629. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 3:56 pm

    “I very much doubt that there would any useful level of lifing US or EU sanctions against Iran that would be of substantial business interest.”

    OK, this is on par with your opinion that there won’t be any meaningful negotiations with Iran, for reasons that include ‘American degenerate crop of leaders.’

    Well I think there will be. Enormous amount. There is simply no way that we see events unfolding this past few weeks, for there not to have been solid guarantees that UNSC resolutions will be rescinded, presidential wavers issued, and European sanctions annulled within months.

    Or, you have a different explanation for change of tone in Tehran, and Washington. Pray tell.

  630. Smith says:

    fyi,

    Out of nearly 900 modern medicines, used in medical practice today only one that I know, has been invented by a Muslim, that also under slave colonial rule and its discoverer never actually knew what it would be good for (Ajmaline).

    Do you think Muslims will ever actually produce anything that reduce the pain of humanity by even a small amount. All analgesics and anesthetics have been invented or discovered by the West. The amount of pain, relieved by them on a daily basis in the world is unmeasured. Do you think Muslims will ever be able to contribute even a fraction of this to the humanity?

  631. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 4:10 pm

    And that growth is already slowing down, unfortunately.

  632. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 9, 2013 at 4:08 pm

    I do not believe that is accurate; the Global Weather Models are not accurate to the level of countries.

    And then there are actual problems with the models – the aerosol chemistry as well as the effect of clouds are not correct in any of the 5 or 6 models currently available.

    It is not clear if the 18-year draught is cyclical or due to globla warming.

    One way would be to do deep core smapling of the sediments of the Caspian Sea as well as the esturay of the Shat-al Arab waterway and the Sea of Oman and analyze the pollen deposited as well as other organic residue that could serve as rainfall proxies.

    Another is to take core samples of old tress all over Iranian plateau and look at the spacing of tree rings which would indicate draught condition and then to try to calibrate them with the calendar.

    I am not aware of such research.

  633. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 9, 2013 at 4:11 pm

    I have already done so.

  634. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 9, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    The issue that you raise is not specific to Muslim polities but endemic to all non-European peoples.

    They all seem to have advanced to a certain point and then stopped – it as though there is an inflexible Law of Nature is in operation.

    China comes to my mind; with invention of movable types, compass, rockets, gun powder water wheel, the examination system, silk, etc.

    [The words for rifle and cartridge in Persian are actually Chinese words.]

    And then they stopped!

    I think it is Europe that is exceptional in its historical development for Europeans have not slowed down.

    In fact, US still remians the most innovative part of teh world.

  635. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    I agree the editorial stance of Wall Street Journal is neocon and unsound, often. But reporting by WSJ sometimes is very good.

    Same WSJ story Oct 9: “Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have cauthioned the White House against moving too quickly to improve ties with Tehran. . .”

    Financial Times today reported UK and Iran are moving closer to possible reopening of embassies (in Tehran and London).

  636. James Canning says:

    Smith,

    You link an RT story about considerable interest American oil and gas, and automobile companies, have in getting back into business in Iran, and say this is an imminent “rape” of Iran. You do not want American companies doing business in Iran, I take it?

  637. Smith says:

    American company’s solution to cut down deaths and disabilities due to traffic accidents: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGoGRe_nBRI

    Iranian solution to cut down traffic deaths: Pray.

  638. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 4:21 pm

    If you get a break chatting with Smith, Sassan, or whatever he is, please repeat, especially the part that explains the change in tone.

    http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/10/09/2753971/senate-intelligence-chair-backs-diplomacy-with-iran/

  639. BiBiJon says:

    James Canning says:
    October 9, 2013 at 4:27 pm

    “Financial Times today reported UK and Iran are moving closer to possible reopening of embassies (in Tehran and London).”

    James, do you have an inside track on what’s going on between London and Tehran?

  640. kooshy says:

    Now that the curtain has been lifted, no need to hide, they now freely can go fully negative on Iran and anything that may in danger the exceptional (As Maa Behtaroons) here we go a new prophecy from the horse’s mouth.

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 3:56 pm

    “I very much doubt that there would any useful level of lifting US or EU sanctions against Iran that would be of substantial business interest.”

    Now- Really a little reading and search instead of just pulling opinions out of one’s arse may keep a troll covered for a bit longer, unless pretense is no longer necessary
    Notice the publish date

    “Billions at stake for economic winners and losers of Iran thaw”

    * Hopes rise for Iran to rejoin global financial system

    * Sanctions have caused massive investment shortfall

    * Easing of sanctions would be gradual

    * Dubai would be big winner; Iraq, Pakistan might be hit

    * Influential group inside Iran would suffer

    By Andrew Torchia

    DUBAI, Oct 7 (Reuters) – After years of being caught in the geopolitical crossfire over Iran’s disputed nuclear programme, Iranian businessmen in Dubai are daring to hope that signs of a diplomatic thaw will allow crippling economic sanctions to be lifted.”
    With its population of 75 million, Iran would be the largest economy to rejoin the global system since post-Communist eastern Europe in the early 1990s.

    “A young, educated population, a credit-based society with huge unsatisfied demand for everything from refineries and chemical plants to housing and basic infrastructure – the business opportunities are huge,” said Emad Mostaque, a strategist who follows Iran at London-based NOAH Capital.”

    http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/10/07/iran-economy-thaw-idINL6N0G71K420131007

  641. BiBiJon says:

    yi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 3:56 pm

    “I very much doubt that there would any useful level of lifing US or EU sanctions against Iran that would be of substantial business interest.”

    On sanctions emoval you refered to Hass.

    I defer to American, European, and Japanese business folks.

    http://rt.com/op-edge/european-companies-iran-sanctions-943/

  642. kooshy says:

    BiBiJon says:
    October 9, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    “If you get a break chatting with Smith, Sassan, or whatever he is, please repeat, especially the part that explains the change in tone.’

    That is called “Close Encounters of the Troll Kind” you read losers

  643. fyi says:

    kooshy says:

    October 9, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    Nonsense; Iran abandonong Iraq and Pakistan for Dubai – again?

    I do not think so.

    If you think that economic interests are going to previal you are sorely mistaken.

    But let us wait and see….

  644. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 9, 2013 at 4:58 pm

    Dream on.

  645. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    M Ali, BibiJon, kooshy, Ataune,

    Mashallah M Ali-jan, haven’t seen such a beautiful ass-kicking since Iran beat Maldives 17-0.

    Like I said “kos-khol” AND “goozpich” at the same time…and then after some of us have spent literally years pointing out his contradictions to him, he seriously writes: “please take the trouble of quoting my statements that contradict each other.”

    Ma’reke! Yek padideye tarikhi!, valla chi begam?

    Like I said he’s genuinely and deeply conflicted which if it wasn’t for his erudition and good general knowledge would be called “mental disorder”.

    My theory is that he doesn’t even realize he is fundamentally contradicting himself. The more annoying and annoyed he gets, the more interesting his case is becoming.

    He really was traumatized by the revolution and immigration on the one hand when his entire life and beliefs were turned upside down, but he also understands the significance and positive effects of the revolution and the Islamic Republic.

    This causes a very deep conflict in him and a feeling of guilt about saying positive things about the IRI on the one hand- kinda of like a betrayal of himself as a young immigrant and those of his family members that might have also experienced similar things.

    On the other hand he also feels guilt and shame if he were to FOLLOW HIS PREMISES TO THEIR LOGICAL CONCLUSION meaning supporting US and Israel in overthrowing- and in the process destroying- his homeland. Here’s where the nuclear weapons obsession comes in. He could as M Ali pointed out- CHANGE SOME OF THOSE PREMISES- but he’s too arrogant to do that (more on why he is arrogant below).

    All of this UNRESOLVED DEEP CONFLICTS are magnified by his age and realization of death approaching- and so I think his presence on this forum, the extreme amount of time he spends on this project, the extreme detail in which he discusses each and every conceivable subject is his way of trying to resolve those inner conflicts before death.

    And as a protection for his internal vulnerability as it relates to these inner conflicts- which he incorrectly perceives as weaknesses given his religious-like belief in “the individual” and personal strength and not hoping for God’s mercy – he builds an armor out of arrogance and pontification- lest reality and real events intrude onto that inner dialogue he is having in order to resolve things before it’s too late (like I pointed out some time back). And lest God grace him with His Infinite Mercy.

    The only problem is that such deep internal conflicts cannot be resolved “alone”, they require help from others– family, community (yes, COMMUNITY!) and most importantly from the Infinite Mercy of God.

    I genuinely feel sorry for him and I Would tell him to come visit his motherland and just travel around, just take it all in and don’t judge, just experience.

    As far as Agent Smithy Rajavibot 2.0-IQ 147 is concerned: he just needs to come really hard once and the world will start looking much more happy and beautiful.

  646. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 9, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    This is all either wishful thinking or someone’s propaganda.

    Iran is in the middle of a war and from all appearances Axis Powers have smelled blood and think that Iran is ripe for picking.

    Which is not the case.

    US companies will be the last to enter Iran – in a limited way when and if Iranians see fit – years, perhaps decades from now.

    A few German, French, and Italian companies (ENI) may be back in Iran but the rupture between Axis Powers and Iran is going to last for a very long time indeed.

    Iran and EU states will never go back to status quo ante of 2009 – that is not in the cards.

    Americans will be even farther behind.

  647. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 5:06 pm

    Dream on.

  648. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    smithy-joon,

    I’m really concerned about you amujan.

    What do you do for fun?

    Do you have any hobbies?

    Do you do any sports?

    Do you have any close friends you can just hang out with and have fun- go to the park with or hiking or the movies?

    Have you talked to your parents about getting married? Is there somebody you think would make a good wife for you?

  649. kooshy says:

    fyi says:
    October 9, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    I really don’t know if Iraq or Pakistan or Dubai which will or will not benefit by Iran expansion of her economy but as long as Iran does that’s what I care.
    Unlike trolls, to be Iranian is not just enough to be born in Iran or talk and write Persian , one needs to be Iranian in hearth. Vosoghodolleh who was a PM, and and a Persian poet was in his hearth Iranian, not in my book he was a traitor.

  650. BiBiJon says:

    What have Muslims dome in the last 34 years for humanity
    ===================================================

    http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2013/10/9/studies_from_pasteur_institute_update_current.htm

  651. kooshy says:

    “Have you talked to your parents about getting married? Is there somebody you think would make a good wife for you?”

    For finding a good wife he may have to stay away from watching others having street orgies in Haifa. Is not required but recommended that’s how Manosheh Amir got himself to a marriage, I was told he married his own sister’s daughter. Which is still allowed.

  652. BiBiJon says:

    Karl..

    Now I know I must have been wrong. If Debka says it, then it is bound to be false.

    “detail of the understandings Washington has reached with Tehran, including Iran’s concessions on its nuclear program. Neither European, nor Persian Gulf leaders led by Saudi Arabia have been let in on the scale of reciprocal concessions approved by Obama and Iran’s supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
    These concessions will start coming to light when they are put on the table of the nuclear negotiations beginning in Geneva on Oct. 15 between Iran and the P5+1 group (five Security Council permanent members and Germany).”

    http://www.debka.com/article/23341/Exclusive-Obama-forewarns-Netanyahu-that-sanctions-against-Iran-will-soon-be-partially-lifted

  653. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    kooshy,

    Yes Jewish law allows what’s called avunculate marriage- marriage between uncle and nieces (I’m not sure about the aunts and nephews part in Jewish law).

    It’s also legal in Argentina, Australia, Austria, Brazil, France, Malaysia and Russia (according to Wikipedia).

    As with cousin marriage, being for or against it depends really on just how your cousin/aunt looks, right?

    I’m just kidding, for God’s sake please let’s not start debating this one with you-know-who, Lord have mercy!

  654. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Iranian experts in the field of oil and gas say that US equipment often is the best, and that is the reason they want to obtain it.

  655. James Canning says:

    BiBiJon,

    I think William Hague would like to see the embassies reopened, but he is being cautious about it. Intermediate steps will take place first (with ambassadors to follow, later, if things work out).

  656. Unknown Unknowns says:

    James “Gaav-e Nar” Canning: A must-read article by Israel Shamir for you, Saheb.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/10/08/russia-syria-and-the-decline-of-american-hegemony/

    Money quotes:

    The most dramatic event of September 2013 was the high-noon stand-off near the Levantine shore, with five US destroyers pointing their Tomahawks towards Damascus and facing them – the Russian flotilla of eleven ships led by the carrier-killer Missile Cruiser Moskva and supported by Chinese warships. Apparently, two missiles were launched towards the Syrian coast, and both failed to reach their destination.

    It was claimed by a Lebanese newspaper quoting diplomatic sources that the missiles were launched from a NATO air base in Spain and they were shot down by the Russian ship-based sea-to-air defence system. Another explanation proposed by the Asia Times says the Russians employed their cheap and powerful GPS jammers to render the expensive Tomahawks helpless, by disorienting them and causing them to fail. Yet another version attributed the launch to the Israelis, whether they were trying to jump-start the shoot-out or just observed the clouds, as they claim.

    Whatever the reason, after this strange incident, the pending shoot-out did not commence, as President Obama stood down and holstered his guns. This was preceded by an unexpected vote in the British Parliament. This venerable body declined the honour of joining the attack proposed by the US. This was the first time in two hundred years that the British parliament voted down a sensible proposition to start a war; usually the Brits can’t resist the temptation.

  657. M.Ali says:

    Bussed-in-Basiji,

    “I’m just kidding, for God’s sake please let’s not start debating this one with you-know-who, Lord have mercy!”

    I agree completely. If you even jokingly refer to cousin marriage, we will encourage the Conflicted Twins to go in hyper-rant mode about how either Iran is either full of degenerate perverts that have sex with their mothers and sisters, OR how IRI government doesn’t allow respect Muslim’s individual rights in having sex with whoever they please, such as their mothers and sisters.

  658. M.Ali says:

    Also, BiB’s assessment of the Twins was interesting.

    Ive noticed this conflict in Iranian diaspora, however, I’d say mainly western diaspora, you won’t find much of that in Iranians in the gulf. Its possible Iranians in the gulf have a lot of back-forth with the country, so they never feel really that far from their hometown. Plus, they didn’t run away from Iran due to the revolution. People like my grandfather were in Dubai for work, not for political reasons, he went there during the Shah’s time because there wasn’t really that many opportunities to make money in Iran at that time, if one wasn’t in tehran.

    But like BiB mentioned, they don’t see the contradictions. I guess internally, one can reason anything.

    Take Smith for example. To an outsider, a person that spends significant time referring to westerns in racist terms (constantly referring them to evil White People) who just desire to Rape brown people and have a history of genocide and evil and massacres (as per him) CAN at the same time, put them on a pedestal as the best thing since sliced bread would seem a strange contradiction. But I guess to him, it somehow falls all into some weird place.

    Of course, it is easy for people to hold the weirdest contradictions if they refuse to look deeply into it and try to wave every difficult challenge to their mindset by shoving it under their mental rugs, and just shout “THIS IS THE TRUTH! THIS IS THE TRUTH”.

  659. Empty says:

    M. Ali,

    Thank you for your detailed, effective, accurate, and at times quite humorous rebuttals. If one were to give also points for consistency and integrity, your rebuttals would take all allotted points.

  660. Unknown Unknowns says:

    fyi says:
    October 7, 2013 at 11:10 am

    There are two types of Christians: the traditional ones (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, etc.), and those who have rebelled against their Church, and, like the Jews, refuse to shoulder the yoke of God’s moral order on Earth (Nuos, the Magesterium, nezam-e towhidi, shariat).

    You say, “You refuse to Think and hide behind the denigration of another People of The Book.” Rather, I refuse to engage in debate with a Christian revolutionary who is not even aware of his own status as a rebel against God. What am I saying?? Who is not aware of his own religion, of the fact that his worldview is 100% [“post-“] Christian (i.e., Lutheran) – the 90% core and 10% smattering of “Islamic” ecumenicism and syncretism that is part and parcel of the oh-so-progressive and oh-so-liberal Church to which your spirit belongs.

    One of the tragic attributes of said Church (of Appliantology, as Zappa characterized it, God rest his soul) congregants – which is part and parcel of the rebellion against and refusal to accept traditional (i.e. sacred) boundaries – is their (= your) inability to respect the beliefs and domain of other religions.

    Learn to show some respect for other creeds (and how they order their societies to the best of their abilities in accordance thereto), and perhaps at that point we can have a fruitful discussion as to the merits of my creed over yours.

  661. kooshy says:

    This is beautiful, son kissing mother’s hand, on graduation from police school

    http://www.farsnews.com/plarg.php?nn=579283&st=1036582

  662. Rd. says:

    Don Bacon says:

    “Obama’s freedom of maneuver vis-a-vis Tehran is highly circumscribed by existing Congressional mandates.”

    Besides the obvious as you state, a few questions comes to mind;

    Do you believe the US unilateral moment is going thru a transition to ‘terminate/lessen’?  At least if we were to consider the Syrian project as case in point.

    If in fact US ability to dictate international norms is being impacted (by financial losses, credibility, other rising powers, etc.) then, perhaps two potential discourse can be considered???

    If US were to cooperate with Russia in the management of ‘crises’ would it be fair to assume, US has considered a bipolar approach?

    Or if US were to consider ‘some’ detente with Iran, then perhaps US strategy is to consider a multi-polar approach?   Depending which may suit their interests.

    Of course given the desperate state of US elites, one can safely presume they would look for option to maintain their diktat.  So perhaps US strategy would be to exploit both options for maximum gains.

    We can also safely state US intent to harm Iran, in order to gain her control.  Based on that, we can state, there is no point in any interaction with US, short of capitulations.

    However, if IRI were to anticipate the fallen state of US, would there be political gains for IRI to promote the effort to settle the crises?

    I can appreciate the many comments by various posters as the fruitless nature of these negotiations.  However, perhaps there are other gains that may have some value given the unlikely potential for any measurable detente.  [water gathers drop by drop, before it turns into a sea].  

    Just curious as to, if others feel such efforts are entirely useless, or perhaps, there are other tangible benefits that may not be so obvious.

  663. Rd. says:

    Rd. says:

    However, if IRI were to anticipate the fallen state of US, would there be political gains for IRI to promote the effort to settle the crises? [without compromising their principals].

  664. Karl.. says:

    Bibijon

    Yes Debka is usually untrustworthy. Its not the first time its portrayed that Iran will make huge concessions.

  665. BiBiJon says:

    Karl.. says:
    October 10, 2013 at 8:54 am

    Yes Karl. But for my own amusement …

    Debka’s did tell it like it is in two areas:

    “The American-Iranian cake is already in the oven and half done.”

    and

    “Neither European, nor Persian Gulf leaders led by Saudi Arabia have been let in on the scale of reciprocal concessions approved by Obama and Iran’s supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. These concessions will start coming to light when they are put on the table of the nuclear negotiations beginning in Geneva on Oct. 15 between Iran and the P5+1 group (five Security Council permanent members and Germany).”

    —-

    But, Debka is pretending that “Israel is the only American ally to receive prior warning of this decision.” Listening to Netanyahu, and various other Israeli political/security luminaries this past couple of weeks, it is crystal clear they are shocked and surprised; they had as much of a clue as the other ‘allies.’

    Ultimately it makes sense that Kerry (read Kissinger) would/could not consult with Japan, and Taiwan, and South Korea, before arranging a handshake between Obama (read Nixon) and Rouhani (read Mao). Had he done so, the train would have derailed long before arriving at the station.

    Britain, France, KSA, and obviously Israel, have powerful self-interests that does not coincide with US’ interests; vis-a-vis Iran, in fact the interests are diametrically opposite. UK, and France need Iran out of the picture to continue to exert influence in the region; KSA and Israel cannot stand a regional rival. For the US, however, after a dozen (or more) years of following her ‘allies’ advice, she has become convinced the allies are wrong. To quote fyi, Iran is the only functioning state from the Hindu Kush to the Mediterranean. Being at odds with a such an important country doubles/triples the costs and risks of protecting US interests in the ME.

    I think Iran, as a gesture of good will, for a long time has tamped down intelligence operations against the US, and in fact, as they did in May, even warned US that Syrian rebels have come in possession of Sarin and are likely to pull off a false flag. Further, they engineered the CW destruction fig leaf for US. The acute embarrassment Obama suffered over Syria thanks to her allies, pales to insignificance had his hand been forced into firing his tomahawks.

    Indeed, the “The American-Iranian cake is already in the oven,” but it is way beyond only half done.

  666. BiBiJon says:

    Correction

    Indeed, the “The American-Iranian cake is out of the oven,” and it is getting (de)icing done on it.

  667. Karl.. says:

    James

    Apparently you support disarming Syria, Iraq, Iran?, Libya, so do you support sanctions by Gulf states against UK to stop their nuclear weapons program?

  668. nico says:

    http://m.europe.wsj.com/articles/a/SB10001424052702304441404579123593924760138?mg=reno64-wsj

    “”The Iranians are preparing to go to Geneva with a serious package,” said a former Western diplomat who has discussed the incentives with senior Iranian diplomats in recent weeks. “These include limits on the numbers of centrifuges operating, enrichment amounts and the need for verification.””

  669. Fiorangela says:

    .
    By UNANIMOUS vote of 193 members, Iran to head UN General Assembly’s Committee on Disarmament and International Security

    “Iran has been elected as the rapporteur of the UN First Committee on Disarmament and International Security shortly after Israeli Premier Benjamin Netanyahu’s inflammatory speech against Tehran. “

    google that development — NO U.S. MSM REPORTED ON IRAN’S UNANIMOUS ELECTION TO U.N. COMMITTEE

    but UPI did report on Israel’s protest of the action of the UNANIMOUS world body’s vote —

    http www dot upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/10/09/Israel-protests-Irans-UN-weapons-committee-appointment/UPI-17271381315415/#ixzz2hEiisj1v (in other news, dog bites man)

  670. Fiorangela says:

    apropos of nothing —

    One of the most touching and exciting moments in the Metropolitan Opera (HD) performance of Eugene Onegin last night occurred shortly after the duel between Onegin and Lenski — during the intermission: Mariusz Kwiecien (Onegin) interrupted an interview of Piotr Beczala (Lenski) and both Russian-speaking Poles spoke to the audience in Polish. I don’t know what they said (I learned to say my prayers in Polish before I learned ABCs, but all I remember is Modlitwa Panski), but the joy and pride on their faces spoke in an international language.

    Anna Yuryevna Netrebko (Tatyana) is Russian, as is the director of the Met’s Eugene Onegin (from a novel by Pushkin), Valery Gergiev.

    Russia’s state government (aka the Putin regime) invests heavily in support of arts and culture.

  671. BiBiJon says:

    Fiorangela says:
    October 10, 2013 at 12:12 pm

    Also, to note: For a unanimous 193-0 vote to happen, clearly US did not object. Indeed US must have encouraged. Iran’s new role sets Iran up for an highly regarded NPT exemplar, as opposed to a demonized exception.

    Also, bravo Putin for feeding the soul.

  672. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Iraq was already “disarmed”, when neocon conspiracy produced illegal US invasion in 2003.

    Yes, Syria should ensure its CW are destroyed.

    Yes, Israel should be pressured to get rid of its nukes.

    Iran says it does not want CW or nukes. This is not correct, in your view?

    As practical matter, Middle East zone free of nuukes is good starting point.

  673. Karl.. says:

    James
    October 10, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    YES, apparently you support disarming Syria, Iraq, Iran?, Libya, so do you support sanctions by Gulf states against UK to stop their nuclear weapons program?

  674. James Canning says:

    Unknown Unknowns,

    I was arguing energetically for Parliament not to endorse a British attack on Syria, and hoped of course for success. And, of course, I was very pleased at what happened.

    I have argued that Putin and Lavrov have many good proposals for the way forward in the Middle East, and that Britain, UK et al should pay close attention to their policy recommendations.

  675. fyi says:

    Unknown Unknowns says:

    October 9, 2013 at 11:05 pm

    And you Sir, please learn to respect the intrinsic rights of the all individuals as well as their God-given dignity.

    The Collective (for Believers it could be the Ummah, Israel, Corpus Christi) has no dispensation to abridge and abrogate the moral as well as volitional autonomy of the individual.

    Learn that what you call your “Creed” could be morally wrong.

    Ah yes, “how they order their societies to the best of their abilities in accordance thereto” like when the Governor of Punjab is assasinated by his own boady guard or a suicide-bomber blows up a bunch of Shia Pilgrims in Iraq.

    You Sir, perhaps you have the supreme virtue of going forward and being able to respect these and other such things – I cannot.

  676. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 10, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    They can’t. They have become too “Muslim/Jew/Christian” to be human anymore. Only God can now teach humility to them in His own way. They are beyond help by you or anyone else.

  677. Smith says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 9, 2013 at 10:54 pm

    That is because of your ignorance and your poor akhlaq. People like you would kill, slaughter and torture given a fertile medium. Because you do not have the intellectual capability to argue for your point of view. You have to attack verbally or physically the person, you do not like for whatever reason as you are doing here. The violence of people like you comes from your violent upbringing and your repressed fantasies. This is the truth. You are sick.

    When I criticize white man for his atrocities, it does not mean I am blind to his contributions. A top pediatric cardiac surgeon who during his professional life has operated on 25,000 children saving their lives, is found to be a pedophile. There is no contradiction in that. It is life. Only simpletons like yourself see contradictions where ever your smallish intellect leave you with no other avenue to explain events, history and happenings except through violence and attack on other people’s jaan, maal, namous.

    But then as I said for others, it is useless to try to engage and teach anything to you people. You are all lost. It is the younger generation of Iranians that have to grasp these ideas, not the kaftals who are becoming increasingly irrelevant in Iranian society and its future. I have a suggestion for you to go out of your cocoon and take a look around Tehran or where ever you are living in Iran; the young people and the society at large are diametrically opposed to the views you are putting here. Talk to the people on street, not to your imaginary fantasy world citizens.

  678. Smith says:

    fyi,

    What these hypocrite house niggers who are so much in love with US that it causes them to launch personal attacks against me and you, will do when US leaves them outside in cold? which US will do no doubt. I guess alot of money is too be made in this deal so much so that for it, Islam and Iran are to be twisted and made anew. They have no shame. If they are to submit and apologize and join the “international community” as US officials say, then what was the need to oust taghot and slaugther so many young kids for a dream that they are ready to sell to US in exchange for some American manufactured goodies. Taghot was actually doing a better job in that.

  679. fyi says:

    Smith says:

    October 10, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Regrettably, I have to agree with you.

    In fact, Jews (Iranians as well as foreigners) have consistently treated me better.

  680. nico says:

    fyi says:
    October 10, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    And you shoild respect the right of people to live the docuety they choose and ban what they feel to be outrageous or agzinst dignity or insulting.

    The western civilization is on is path toward nihilsm, unrestricted individualism and egotism.
    The path toward the standatdization an robotization of human being.
    Human being have only the right to work, consume and go sleep in their shoe box each night with their head totally brainwashed by soaps, reality shows and presstitutes. With few digit in a bank account policing what he can do or not. With all respect for trancendence and dignity vanished.

    Well maybe that efficient in your endless admiration of material success and social egotism.
    However it is sure track for moral collapse, dehumanization, trampling of human dignity.
    To sum it up toward the current western degeneration.

    The western moral degeneration is coming from the denial of differences.
    Cultural difference, national difference, sexual identity difference behaviour and status in society.
    Ethnic difference, religious difference.

    One needs to recocnize and respect the differences.

    The western ideology is not about respecting differences. It is about destruction of differences and identities.
    All melted in an studied anarchy with individual weakened, destructured and helpless before the Market.

    The western ideology is about tranforming the world with human being not attached to a land, a culture, a people.

    This is the great universalist extremist ideology of the enlightment merged with the supporters of globalization and the one world’s governement utopia.

    This is the ideology of the EU.
    And obviously the ideology of the US.

    The current western ideology is economic far right wing extremism with ultra liberalism and financial predation.
    Merged with the far left wing social ideology of so called progressiveness and anarchy.

    The issue is that that exact extremist ideology is the cause of western degeneration

    What is needed right now is more balanced ideology.
    With traditional social organization to be respected and economy to be more regulated in order for Man to keep his dignity and identity.

  681. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    Are China and Japan “on a path toward nihilism and collapse”, in your view? Hong Kong? Singapore?

  682. fyi says:

    nico says:

    October 10, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    Western Civilization, concieved and viewed as a man-made machine, like other artifacts – natural or man-made – is subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics; as disorder (error) accumulates, the machine works less and less efficiently to its purpose.

    The demise of Western Civilization is not going to benefit others – Islamic, Indic, Sinic civilizations; it would harm them in fact. The reason is that all these civilizations are dependent on the Western civilizations for innovations in ideas, tools, proceses, legal strctures, and political dispensations.

    Independent India, independent Malaysia, independent Uruguay, independent Iraq, independent Pakistan, and many others are actual creations of the Western Civilizations – they would not have existed otherwise.

    When Germans were persecuting Jews in Germany, there were people in the United States – some among the Anthropologist – that were saying the same thing: “That is just the German culture and the way they do things over there.”

    During the so-called Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution in China millions of people died (exiled to villages were there was no shelter or food for them) or were murdered outright. You see, while the late Chairman Mao and other Communist leader were using the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution as a cover for inter-party struggle for power, millions of other Chinese were using to exact revenge and retribution out of real or percieved slights or outright malice or envy.

    Well, I think all these peoples lives were worth something; that they were endowed by the Creator with intrinsic dignity and rights and no amount of appeal to social relativism could excuse the depredations of the state against these people.

    And as it goes for Germany and China, so it goes for others.

  683. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 10, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    “Regrettably, I have to agree with you [, dear Sassan].”

    “In fact, Jews (Iranians as well as foreigners) have consistently treated me better.”

    Rich isn’t it fyi, that You agree with the foul-mouthed Sassan?

  684. nico says:

    fyi says:
    October 10, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    Again you are focusing on the small picture in your nevrotic issue with Iranian regime.
    There is a hierarchy in priority and root cause of social progress.

    The current Iranian regime is doing a fine job in all social and economic fields.
    Should it be measured in abdolute terms as HDI.
    Or should it be in relative term compared to neighbors as for social liberty and progress.

    What is your claim about the Iranian disaster I fail to grasp.
    I mean each country has an history an evolution and a path toward progress.
    Nothing comes overnight.

    The issue is that you compare the western matetial succes right now with Iran right now.
    Is that a way to compare country progresses and judge Iran policies ?

    I mean other than your heinous feeling of the house slave who would like to be the master a treat the slaves like non human.

    Yes dear fyi. You have a house slave mentality.
    The slave needs to free himself and then have in own path to life.
    You have the loser minset of the houseslave in admiration toward his master and self denigrating and dreaming about winning the lottery and becoming the plantation master overnight.

  685. M.Ali says:

    Good post, Nico.

    To me the issue that I have with fyi or Smith is not what they think the opposition is. I’ve never argued that I think Iran is better than USA, or USA is better than USA. I’ve not even talked about Islam all that much.

    But I don’t like simplified judgmental calls on countries. Man are social creatures. Even in the west’s me-culture, people don’t live outside society. Even in the simplest, most smallest commodities, such as online forums, there have to be restrictions (such as no spamming, no off-topic, etc) to be able to function well.

    No society has yet find the right balance, between freedom and restrictions, because not only is it overly complicated but people are different. It is the latter which people like fyi have a hard time coming in terms too.

    Even though fyi and Smith have placed so many labels to me, as if I am some sort of religious fanatic, what they dont understand is that one can support a society even if it is not in his ideal image. I’m not a religious person AT ALL. However, I KNOW that iranians are. And if I am to support democracy, than I should support the majority’s desires, not mine.

    I also think that all I have the social responsibility to try to improve the place I live in, as long as the improvement I place on society is not changes which I think are the best, but are not in people’s desires.

  686. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 10, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    I agree with you.

    These things have even happened in Iran. During Qajar time for instance the opponent of king were tortured and accused of being what not and then killed. This continued in Pahlavi and even today.

    Look no further than this board in which for example I am being accused of being another person. Thankfully I am at safety and protected by western technology. Otherwise these violent people would have tortured and dismembered me to death. This is their history.

    In Iran, tohmat has become a way of life. It is not uncommon for police to pick some innocent person and torture him for days (eg. beatings of the testis which frequently then results in post-traumatic fibrosis and infertility) then the “real” culprit is found and the poor innocent guy is released on streets with threats to keep his mouth shut. It is not only state that is involved in tohmat, but also the citizens. Countless innocents were tortured and killed by accusing them of being bahai, jew, zionist agent, american agent, this or that. Fortunately as the kaftals are dying and the new generation taking over, these things are becoming lesser but it is still there.

    As Ahmadinejad had once said, lying in Iran is cheap and free. There is no cost for telling lies. But truth is expensive and saying the truth exacts a high price.

    He had to deal with these people. After serving them tirelessly, he was accused of fetneh and monharef.

    As I said, above only God can teach humility to these hypocrites through His own ways.

  687. fyi says:

    nico says:

    October 10, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    If you look at HDI, Saudi Arabia’s numbers are better than Iran’s.

    But let us not quibble; all of these as you have indicated are relative.

    That is an acceptable position.

    What is not acceptable is to make that the ultimate arbitrar of success or failure of a state or polity.

    Specifically about Iran: Of the 3 slogans of the Iranian Revolution: “Independence, Freedom, Islamic Republic” the first is realized as indicated by Iran’s strategic autonomy.

    The “Islamic Republic” is only partially realized as I have discussed earlier.

    And in the arena of “Freedom” we have much more grounds to cover.

    For, in comparison to Azerbaijan Republic, Turkey, Pakistan, Kuwait, Iranian women are repressed – half the population is subject to arbitrary arrest and harassment.

    Likewise, in comparison to Pakistan or Turkey, the Press are less free in Iran.

    I think only it is in comparison of that Polics State called Saudi Arabia you can state that the situation in Iran in superior in these 2 respects that I just enumerated.

  688. Smith says:

    nico says:
    October 10, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    No, it is you who is the house slave here (ironic that you are using the terms I introduced to this forum).

    You see, the progress IRI has made does not absolve it of its duty to move towards the goals of the Revolution.

    Otherwise others have made progress too even better than Iran’s. Saudi Arabia has made a better progress in HDI than IRI. Also Saudi Arabia has made a better progress in health care with all its indicators being better than Iran’s whether neonate/infant/child/maternal mortality rate or life expectancy, access to healthcare and medicine etc. Does that mean that Saudi system is better than Iran’s? Even the question is laughable. And this is what you and people like you are arguing.

    The betterment of a system does not only rest on such things but also on its morals, goals and the direction it is moving its citizens in ideological terms.

  689. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 10, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    Ah, you stole my words out of my mouth. 😉

  690. nico says:

    fyi says:
    October 10, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    “Western Civilization, concieved and viewed as a man-made machine, like other artifacts – natural or man-made – is subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics; as disorder (error) accumulates, the machine works less and less efficiently to its purpose.”

    What is this pseudo scientific nonsense other than pontification ?
    I have an quantum theory of mine applied to geopolitic but do not dare to speak it out…

    This is all about Ideology and capable leader.
    Nothing more or less.
    The west has no capable leader and a rotten ideology which once has been thriving.
    The west is at the forefront if progress but has been unable to reinvent itself.

    As I already said previously to bussed in bassiji, Iran is early in the cycle of social transformation (urbanization, industrialization, education, demographic distribution…) and has not yet faced the challenge faced by the current west which is in the end of its cycle.
    Nothing is comparable and to be compared nowadays between west and Iran.

    Your claim about the Iranian disaster is only incantation, ideology and nevrose not supported by material or factual evidence.

    As an example I previously posted the prison to country population rate ranking.
    The US is the worst country.
    THAT is hard evidence.

  691. kooshy says:

    From what I have understood I believe ambassador Mousavian is correct on both this points, on his first point, it’s been a number of years since Iran had that capability

    “Iran Won’t Give Up Nuclear Program, Ex-Rouhani Associate Says”

    “Iran has the capability and can make a nuclear bomb if they want, but they don’t want,” Mousavian said.

    “The wall of mistrust is really thick,” Mousavian said. “It is a good beginning, but we should not believe that things with the U.S. can be resolved in six months or one year.”

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-10/iran-won-t-give-up-nuclear-program-ex-rouhani-associate-says.html

  692. nico says:

    fyi says:
    October 10, 2013 at 3:40 pm
    Nco says:October 10, 2013 at 3:28 pm
    “If you look at HDI, Saudi Arabia’s numbers are better than Iran’s.”

    Mmmmh.
    And what about yours and Smith freedom and islamic disaster in KSA ?
    You are not consistent my dear fyi.
    As I stated previously you are blinded by the golden sparkles of material success and you are ideologically driven.

  693. fyi says:

    nico says:

    October 10, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    I believe that we have an extreme sort of philosophical difference; you posit a difference between Matter (Extension in the language of Aristotean Metaphysics) and Thought.

    I do not subscribe to the Medieval Doctrine of Substance – the application of the 2nd Law to human civilizzations remains valid.

    And there can be no quantum theory of civilizations – neither you or anyone else can define a claissical dynamics for them let alone a quantum one.

    You do not understand the United States – she is the highest exponent of the Western Civilization but she is not Western Civilization.

    Violence in the United States is caused by many things: drug use by young men whose minds are permanently altered and who have access to weapons, young African-American males who seem to be oblivious to following any rules, and immigrant populations that have not yet learnt to work with one another or trust each other.

  694. fyi says:

    nico says:

    October 10, 2013 at 4:35 pm

    If I were Saudi Arabian, I would have cared about the Islamic Disater there.

  695. M.Ali says:

    Smith,

    “Look no further than this board in which for example I am being accused of being another person. Thankfully I am at safety and protected by western technology. Otherwise these violent people would have tortured and dismembered me to death. This is their history. ”

    Are you then completely insane for advocating people like these to have nukes? Before you know it, bearded Iranians will nuke USA (the A stands for Akhlaq), cover the girls in hijab, and not tolerate anything. Prostitution in the world all over will increase by 1000% in just a few years. Disneyland will be turned into Beardland, Truth will be forever banned, no matter how Harsh or Bitter it is, and the world will turn into an Islamic version of 1984, instead of Big Brother there will be Big Basij.

    You seem to specially hate the Iranians living in Iran, because they are living in sex orgies filth, dying left and right in road accidents, half the nation is prostitution, everyone lies, nothing is tolerated except beards, Pink Floyd albums equals death sentence, and akhlaq is just a fairy tale told my old woman where they say it is practiced only in faraway lands, and instead of hoping the rules will change, you want these Maniacs to have nuclear weapons!

    But, hey, there is at least ONE good thing about the west’s me culture. People like you can think whatever dangerous thoughts you want. In evil Iran, there is a strong community and family structure, and there would be a brother, an uncle, maybe a father, maybe a close friend, maybe a cousin, maybe a classmate, maybe one of the guys from the neighborhood, who will see a person like you in a very unfortunate, confused position, and get involved in your life and try to help out.

    But that’s stupid, evil Iran, that has no respect for individual rights.

  696. kooshy says:

    Wow, I think this one for sure will scare those Eyranians,
    Ayatollah Khamenei said a while back “if the occupiers of the Quds make a wrong move we will level Jerusalem and Haifa” which if to put it in words that Americans can understand = go ahead make my day punk
    In that event, one may even get a chance to have a street orgy with an incoming Sajill is Haifa

    “Israel Holds Flight Exercise Ahead of Iran Talks”

    JERUSALEM October 10, 2013 (AP)
    By ARON HELLER Associated Press

    “In an apparent message to Iran, the Israeli military said Thursday it had carried out a “special long-range flight exercise” and posted rare footage of the drill online.

    The military said its squadrons practiced refueling planes in midair this week and tested the air force’s ability. The accompanying footage shows a tanker plane refueling fighter jet midair, a key part of any long-range operation.”

  697. A-B says:

    I read RT’s article “America’s trade tango with Tehran” and heard the news presenter say US/GM wants to “conquer” Iran’s automobile industry – pointing out that it, despite ‘crippling sanctions’, is still vibrant and currently #13 in the world – after the froggies out maneuvered themselves. The froggies boohoo despite this fact: “Iran files complaint against France’s Total over intentional sabotage [in South Pars Gas Field, which deprived the Islamic Republic of recovery from the field’s biggest and most important gas layer for 10 years.]” (PressTV April 11, 2013). Re. GM; I just say one word: SAAB (the Swedish car maker established in 1945 which was taken over entirely by GM in 2000 and terminated in 2011 due to opposition to transfer of technology to the Chinese company that could save SAAB). Some would say that the demise of SAAB was due to the blind ‘justice’ of Capitalism and had nothing to do with ‘the Exceptionalist’ (i.e. Fascist) not caring if the victims happen to be ‘blond’. (I mean the Brits didn’t bother that the Germans they incinerated in Dresden were ‘Aryans’. As long as the Fascist can remain ‘exceptional’ anything goes, right??)

    On February 24 I wrote: Apart from this West’s ‘concession’ (i.e. asking Iran to “sit” [at P5+1 negotiation] and not “get your ass down, jack-ass”) US would offer Iran that Iranian scientists will not be assassinated!! Well, thank you VERY much!! What’s next? “If you [Iran] don’t want to starve, here’s Monsanto”?!!

    Of course, it is abundantly clear that this ‘nuclear issue’ IS a ploy to depreciate Iran economically, scientifically AND culturally (in the eyes of the world, that is), to more readily be taken over by the Fascists. However, on June 16 I wrote: And it is very likely that the new President [Rohani] is used by the West and Russia as another face-saving lifeline. They blame the failure in ‘negotiation’ with Iran on the ‘ill-mannered’ Ahmadinejad, who constantly ‘threatened’ (!!) their little racist darling Israel, and now that the Iranian hero (during whose term Iran may have evaded hot war with the West) is gone they can do business with – what they think a weaker – Iran. In this aspect, could it be that France wants to improve her position by implicating the Brits; who in turn unleashed ‘The Snowden’ to punish Obama for not having intervened in Syria already?

    And now it is US paying back to both the Brits and the French for their betrayal. And of course the opportunist south Europeans jumped off the war wagon heading for Syria when it derailed. BEAUTIFUL!!

    Early on I pointed on the backtracking of the Western liars, when they tried to cover up the unraveling of their evil plans for Syria by ‘democratic’ and ‘moral’ deliberations. Then, they congratulated themselves that it was their ‘democracy’ that saved ME from more carnage; a carnage that THEY created and still sponsor, by supporting two of the most undemocratic murderous regimes on the planet; namely, Israel and Saudi-Wahhabia; when in fact the West was FORCED to abide by the Law.

    Now, lo and behold; the West is distancing itself from Nuttiyahoo and Saudi prince monkey (AKA Bandar).

    On February 28 I wrote: But hopefully, exactly as Iran’s resistance eventually led to the demise of Saddam and Mojahedin-e Kharr (MEK) we will be witnessing the termination of these Wahhabi/Salafi fanatics and their patrons. And hopefully, it will result in a total and indelible change in the attitude of people of (shared) culture in Iran-Iraq-Syria towards Europe and the West.

    Apparently, it is the West being DIVIDED and hopefully they can be ‘CONQURED’ (i.e. exceptionally demoted or deprived of its ‘exceptionality’) with wise management. Enter: the SL!!

    Thank God Almighty!

  698. A-B says:

    And, BTW, DVD tip of the day: Martin Scorsese ‘Taxi driver’.

  699. nico says:

    fyi says:
    October 10, 2013 at 4:50 pm

    “I believe that we have an extreme sort of philosophical difference; you posit a difference between Matter (Extension in the language of Aristotean Metaphysics) and Thought.”

    Obviously we have a fundamental difference.
    You base your demonstration and position on not factual evidence or logic.
    You dismiss my point about KSA and you say you do not care when I point out your unconsistency.

    Your position is that Iran as an Islamic republic is bound to be a failure or a disaster because of Islam.
    While actual MATERIAL evidence suggest the opposite.
    YOU are the one positing difference between Matter and Tought. Ironic of you to reverse the onus.
    Your position is ideologically driven by your heinous position against the Muslim civilization current weakness as a whole.
    While the IR is striving to give back its dignity to Iran and Islam.
    Whith success I dare say.
    Again, you have a loser mindset and are shamefull of the current weakness of Iran.
    That is cowardly position and escape of one’s responsability. Respectfully.

    “I do not subscribe to the Medieval Doctrine of Substance – the application of the 2nd Law to human civilizzations remains valid.And there can be no quantum theory of civilizations – neither you or anyone else can define a claissical dynamics for them let alone a quantum one.”

    BS.
    Correlation is not scientific proof. What is your demonstration.
    That is soft science jargon supported by nothing.
    Quantum leap speaks to you ?
    What about comparing a grand bargain to that ?
    Like what is advocated by ouf hosts or the case of China.
    It remains that such comparison is only BS as much as 2nd laws or any other comparison whith hard science.

    “You do not understand the United States – she is the highest exponent of the Western Civilization but she is not Western Civilization.Violence in the United States is caused by many things: drug use by young men whose minds are permanently altered and who have access to weapons, young African-American males who seem to be oblivious to following any rules, and immigrant populations that have not yet learnt to work with one another or trust each other.”

    Thanks for your many EXCUSES for the lack of freedom in the US.
    I think I need to forget the number of Afghan refugees in Iran to just pretend to believe one second your demonstration.
    One maybe needs to just believe that the US is a destrucured and degenerated society where inequality, social and economic discrimination is the rule and where there is no social or governmental solidarity.
    Such society is only held together by a police state which rapes and violate the freedom of the biggest rate of its own population in the world…
    One should think a regime change is needed over there.

  700. Smith says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 10, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    Since you are an old dog and incapable of learning new tricks, this is my last reply to you (in vain) since I am tired of your lies, tohmat, foul mouth and your friends sexual fantasies and degradation.

    “Are you then completely insane for advocating people like these to have nukes?”

    No. It is you and your ilk who are insane. All of humanity are at loss (as God says in Quran). Shortcomings are not only in Iranians. It is in all of humanity. In fact if I have to measure it, then I would say, those shortcomings are less in Iran than are in white man. But just because Iran is not perfect, it does not mean that Iranians do not have a right to defend themselves and a right for their children to live and prosper in peace. Only nuclear weapons by their nature can provide a fool proof deterrence against white man. No other man on this planet has any authority to judge others and implement punishments. Be that man Iranian or American. But since the history of the past 500 years show, the white man is much more disposed and inclined to judge and implement his “divine” punishments on other nations than say Iranians. That is why Iran should have nuclear deterrence. The reason why such deterrence works while other forms of defense fails, has been explained by me times and again but here it is again:

    Deterrence is there to ensure peace. It is hoped to be an ultimate instrument of keeping peace, preventing bloodshed and rape. It might be at times difficult to understand specially for simpletons and those not well-read and thoughtful enough but it does not take away its importance one bit…. We have different kinds of deterrence. In conventional sense, we have deterrence by denial.

    In such a deterrence, you build up conventional forces, armor, artillery, missiles, car bombs, huge military etc etc in order to deny the enemy your territory. This kind of deterrence is old and goes back centuries. But it almost never works. An enemy that is larger, technologically more sophisticated, has more resources at its disposal etc etc, will try to breach the conventional defenses believing that it is in its best interest to do that. The deterrence by denial has never stopped a larger war party from attacking a smaller one through out history and even among equal powers its record of success has been patchy and quite bloody.

    The nuclear deterrence works on the other hand on quite different principles which are counter-intuitive but mathematically proven. Since the effect of nuclear weapons are so devastating and unusual, the nuclear deterrence is a deterrence by punishment. Such a deterrence, assumes that the other party will never risk massive punishment unleashed on it, by trying to attack the nation in question. The game theory then states in such a situation, the war will not happen in the first place.

    The assumption of punishment is theoretical until the other party goes suicidal. In the beginning of nuclear deterrence history, there was always this fear that a nation might go suicidal eventually setting in motion the punishment. But never happened solely because no nation ever goes suicidal. In effect, peace is maintained by theoretical characteristic of this deterrence. For this of course both parties must be armed with nuclear weapons.

    Before the advent of nuclear deterrence all great powers used to go to war with clock work regularity. That has now stopped. US used nuclear weapons only when it already knew that it is the only one with nukes so it can not be deterred.

    “You seem to specially hate the Iranians living in Iran, because they are living in sex orgies filth, dying left and right in road accidents, half the nation is prostitution, everyone lies…”

    Again you make assumptions yourself then add your lies and tohmat. That is what you people are good at. First of all I do not hate anyone. The only thing I hate is lies. That is your domain. It is your domain to hate, torture, kill and maim. As history has it. People like us are peaceful and always promote peace, because unlike you we do not need violence to promote our view point. We believe our argument is strong enough, again unlike you. For example on the issue of Hijab, chomaq has no efficacy, specially when you can not put strong arguments to win the heart of girls on the matter.

    And unlike you, I do not live a lie. Yes, pre-marital sex has increased so much so in Iran that even taghot and shah could not have dreamed of. And this has happened under IRI. Underground abortions are thriving in every town. Ask any gynecologist in Iran and they will tell you that. So has prostitution. Actually so many girls were going abroad to places like Dubai for prostitution that Iran had become an exporter. These are truths that can not be denied. And such vices and sins had not reached during taghoot to proportions we are witnessing now.

    These are shortcomings that have to be addressed. As I said, I hate lies. You and your ilk can go and lie to each other and live a life full of lies. You can lie to yourself that Iran’s economy is not based on riba and at war with God. You can lie to yourself that moral situation on the ground in Iran is not going down the drain. You can lie to yourself that young men are not dying on Iran’s roads, but all these lies are not going to improve the situation, rather will make it worse, specially if as it always happens people like wake up one morning and see the lie has become too big so they go out with a chomaq and start beating girls. The first step towards a problem is the acceptance of its existence.

    Lying will never solve a problem. You can continue to lie as much as you like. Beating up people for their hair style, tattoos and bare ankles in 50 degree heat, but then coming here and saying, in Iran every thing is as per Islam. People live their life as Muslims and there is not prostitution and whatever prostitution was during Shah’s time is no more. Such lies might be bought by your uncle, aunt, brother, friend… but not by me. I have zero tolerance for lies.

  701. M.Ali says:

    All I got from that post is that, white people are bad, Iranians are bad, long live nuking everyone.

  702. Smith says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 10, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    That is because you are an ignorant liar.

  703. Sakineh Bagoom says:

    Where are you UU/ADB/SB?
    They are taking credit for your work.
    Look at the post at 3:46…

  704. Smith says:

    Tabnak reporting on the upcoming “deal” by Six party talks: http://www.tabnak.ir/fa/news/350494/%D8%AF%D9%88-%D8%AA%D8%AD%D8%B1%DB%8C%D9%85%DB%8C-%DA%A9%D9%87-%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B4%D8%AA%D9%87-%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%B4%D9%88%D8%AF%D8%AF%D9%88-%D8%AA%D8%AD%D8%B1%DB%8C%D9%85%DB%8C-%DA%A9%D9%87-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%82%DB%8C-%D9%85%DB%8C-%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AF

    -Iran stop 20% enrichment. Iran sends most of its 20% uranium abroad. Iran reduce its centrifuges (closure of fordo?)

    -Only the sanctions on trading gold and petrochemicals will be lifted. The sanctions on oil and on banking WILL REMAIN.

    As it is clear, there will be no deal. Iran will have to move towards preparation for pulling out of NPT (as North Korea did after wasting so much time in Six party talks).

  705. Smith says:

    EU parliament passed a resolution condemning Iran and ordering Iranian government to release prisoner. Further more EU parliament has condemned the attack on MEK and Catherine Ashton has expressed worry for MEK personnel missing in Iraq saying that they are in danger of being given to Iran: http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2013/10/131010_me_eu_parliament_pastor_release.shtml

    Yeah, negotiations are going well.

  706. Rehmat says:

    History Professor Gil Troy (McGill University, Montreal) accuses 250,000 New Yorker Jews for throwing Israel under bus for not stopping Rouhani’s visit to New York in September 2013.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/10/11/gil-troy-those-bloody-ny-jews-betrayed-israel/

  707. fyi says:

    nico says:
    October 10, 2013 at 5:55 pm

    I know personally Muslim women who wear scarves here in US and hold professional jobs.

    They are well-respected and in the course of their work interact and deal with very many people from different religions, sexes, and nations.

    I know this faculty member in a medical related field who wears a scarf, her Saudi Arabian Junior colleague does not, but her Syrian friend does so.

    This is the simple choice that is denied Iranian women by the Iranian state under the guise of “Islamic Piety”.

    No amount pussy-footing and talking about local culture and custom can negate the fact that freedom is denied to women.

    Next door, in Turkey, until earlier this week, women with scarves were not permitted into government buildings – including universities, ministries etc.

    In Turkey we have had a secular disaster, in Iran an Islamic Disaster.

    Both polities suffer from the absence of what the English call “Judgment”.

    That is all.

  708. Fiorangela says:

    http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/10/09/third-israeli-drone-sabotaged-by-hacking/

    “Israeli media have announced that the IAF has “lost” . . . yet another of its advanced drones, the Hermes-450, one of the most advanced of its fleet. This marks the third vehicle lost in a similar manner in the past six months.”

  709. Avg American says:

    I couldn’t resist:
    Someone posted this earlier:

    http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.549974.1380637668!/image/693970545.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_640/693970545.jpg

    There was a crooked man, and he wore a crooked tie,

    He scammed a crooked country and together they told its people lies,

    Everyone kept telling crooked stories which made the place a mess,

    And it all could have been avoided if It’s congress was powerless!!

  710. Smith says:

    Avg American says:
    October 10, 2013 at 11:17 pm

    There is a Farsi saying “Az mast keh bar mast” meaning its from us that is upon us. Americans should take responsibility for all they have done, they are doing and they are about to do. Even if half of the sanctions put on Iran were to be placed on crook state, peace would prevail. Alas, it is a religious war as fyi has been saying here.

  711. Smith says:

    That drone is actually useless. It is only a surveillance machine. Iran’s latest UCAV is more superior: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GPKMieHiKY

  712. Avg American says:

    Relax it was just a little humor not ill meant .. Sorry if I have offended – truth is simple.

  713. masoud says:

    Fyi and Smith,

    If you have nothing constructive or mildly interesting to say, which you don’t, kindly shut the fuck up. Go get a private room or something. Take James Canning with you.

  714. Karl.. says:

    Avg American

    October 10, 2013 at 11:17 pm

    Yes I posted that pic earlier, here we have the traitors of america. Just look at Graham’s face. Seems like hes ten year old and just got kissed by a girl or something.

  715. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    M Ali and others,

    I commend you for simply pointing out the contradictions in fyi’s and the racism and insanity in IQ 147’s posts- without necessarily mentioning what your view is.

    This drives them crazy because they have a mental condition which makes it impossible for them to engage in a normal logical debate and they just resort to insults, pontification and patronization.

    In the Holy Quran this mental disease is called “takabor” which is the root of all other vices.

    I would like to suggest to you that despite all of the negatives that one can and should discuss about the Islamic Republic one matter trumps all others:

    Like I mentioned previously, no revolution and ensuing state in the last 1,000 years has done more to satisfy the basic needs, increase the basic standard of living and open the path for more people to democratic participation in society IN A SHORTER PERIOD OF TIME than the Islamic Revolution and the Islamic Republic.

    It would be nice if kos-khol and kuny would actually take me up on this “thesis” and with data and logical arguments and refute it.

    As k&k would say- “this is the truth, and the truth hurts”.

  716. nico says:

    fyi says:
    October 10, 2013 at 9:55 pm

    “I know personally Muslim women who wear scarves here in US and hold professional jobs.”

    Okay. Have you got actual and neutral statistics ?
    Not the Shahid like joke.

    What about US incarceration rate that is signature of a police state.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

    Maybe you do not care about poverty or social inequality in the US as it is “only” related to young, migrant, brown/black or other “inferior” people ?
    Maybe should it be related to WASPs then it would be of some concern for you ?

    THAT is actual evidence of major issue in the US. While the US are one of the richest country ever.

    But let’s see how the US will manage that with the deepenng economic crisis.
    Sure the individualistic and egotistic social organization in the US will manage “exeptionally” and with love for freedom !

  717. nico says:

    It seems the trend is clear.
    Well maybe with shutdown and budget cut the rate will decrease… Line prisons in California.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

    Incarceration rate in California is near 5000 ppm.
    While it is near 3000 in Iran.

    Sure California is a state of freedom and justice. And one of the poorer place in world !

  718. nico says:

    Sure there is a drug related issue in California.
    Which is non existent in Iran with Afghanistan at its border… !

  719. fyi says:

    nico says:

    October 11, 2013 at 7:06 am

    As I stated before, there are issues that each ountry faces; no place is perfect and no human construct is that of Paradise on Earth.

    All human beings operate on the basis of an autonmous self; that freedom of choice is essential to all of human action as well as legal structures all over the world.

    When that freedom of choice is abridged in anyway shape or for form, it creates resentment and anger.

    The essential point is that “Freedom” means something and the Muslim women that I have met in US, some natives and some immigrants, are able to exercises choices that are denied to women in Iran and were denied until recently to women in Turkey and is utterly denied to women in Saudi Arabia.

    I do not believe it matters just how many Muslim women wear scarves in US; the point is that it is their choice – they have that Freedom.

    [Almost no Iranian woman or woman from Iranian ancestry in US wears scarf – exceptionas are a few new arrivals from Iran.]

    The Second Majlis – among its negative contributions to Iran – also passed a law restricting Majlis members to those who “outwardly conform to Islam”. In practice, as I said before, this meant a 2-day or 3-day old beard for men and the chador for women.

    One of the sponsors of that legislation at the time stated candidly that otherwise people such as himself would not get the vote.

    In this manner, the Second Majlis planted the seeds of the political crisis of 2009; the plant which was a God-send for Axis Powers as their machinations as it created and sustained a schism in the Iranian body politic.

    Men such as Dr. Vali Nasr, or Dr. Farzad Mostashari or others like them cannot stand for elections to Majlis, let alone the presidency of the Islamic Republic. Well, these people have friends, families, associates and others that look at all of that and get angry and resentful.

    And then we have such absurdities that an Iranian woman gets elected to the Dutch Parliament while in her own country the best she could expect is malign contempt by the Moral Police.

    Mr. Khatami tried to alter the Iranian election law but Mr. Khamenei opposed it. Thus enabling furthering of the schism in the body politic – at least in Tehran – which was fully exploited by the enemies of the Islamic Republic.

    And the Islamic Establishment is still unrepentent – they still have not grasped that they cannot indefinitely control the negative consequences of this schism – that Tehran, a city of 10 million, is being lost to them.

    By the way, another contribution of the Second Majlis was the banning of travel to foreign lands by Iranian women. Even those ultra-religious women Members of Majlis opposed that legislation; one saying: “Passing this law means woman is a Nothing in Islamic Republic.”

    But they did pass the law; the whole point being control of the fertile womb – it seemed to me.

  720. fyi says:

    nico says:

    October 11, 2013 at 7:30 am

    I think in 1999 I saw statistics for murders in Italy for an entire year; it was less than those of Los Angeles Country in California.

    Americans have been poorly led for at least 20 years, both at government and at business levels.

    Their military expenditures are close to $ 1.2 trillion annulay while their local police spends an inordinate amount of time on traning and equipment fit for commandos and not police.

    Basic infrastructure in US is falling apart, under Mr. Clinton, African-American communities were essentially written-off – given some hundreds of millions of dollars to their leaders and then let go.

    The subway in Washington DC – the Imperial Capital – is deplorable.

    They need a surge in their own country rather than going around picking fights and starting wars of religion.

    But US leaders are still unrepentant.

  721. fyi says:

    masoud says:

    October 11, 2013 at 12:42 am

    Well clearly you are quite capable of contributing to intelligent conversations.

    You owe me an apology.

  722. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    nico-jan,

    A society in which the child-bearing age women have the “choice” of not having children by prioritizing other things like work, getting their eighth MA, becoming an artist or belly dancer- everything but bearing children as in the west- that society dies.

    This is what is starting to happen in Iran with influence of these idiot liberals like Khatami and assorted pussy(cats).

    Thank God Mahmud-jan started reversing this crap in his term and SL backed him forcefully on this- even going so far as saying the we made a mistake with the small families/free contraception programs after the war.

    Well, we were saying this back then but were called “medieval” and “backward” back then by the “civilized” assholes.

    When I got married we went for mandatory counseling and at the end they handed my wife a ton of free anti-bay pills. When we got home, we ceremoniously dumped them all into the trash.

    And when the law and elite culture encourages this and discriminate against women who choose to bear children between the ages of 18-40 instead of career and higher education- that society withers away, even if it has the highest HDI, GDP and technology in the world.

    The only way out of this is immigration which as we see Iranians don’t like- incorrectly in my view.

    There is only two options: native women bearing many children or immigration, sorry no third option.

    Therefore: the more controlling of the fertile womb the better!

    “This is the truth and truth hurts”.

    Genius doesn’t seem to understand that “individual rights” at the price of a societies/nations suicide is exactly what is happening to his beloved western civilization.

    No thanks, will not happen in “backwards” Iran while “neanderthals” like me are alive here- you can bet your balls on it (no pun intended).

    Also one the best things about the travel restrictions on women and small children in Iran is that we have much less cases of women stealing the children in divorce cases and taking them to other countries.

    Just ask men and fathers in any fuckin western country how they feel about the legal discrimination against them in courts that always and for no good reason favor the women/mother.

    That’s western “rule of law” and “justice” for you at its finest.

    If one believes that a father’s presence is important for the healthy mental growth of child, then Iran and Islamic law is a million years ahead of western “civilization” in this regard.

    Kos-khol is upset that “black youths” (almost as racist as Canning’s infamous “marauding blacks” comment) don’t know ho to behave. Well maybe it’s because many of them didn’t have a father or father figure in their life. Same for many other kids- especially boys- of all ethnic groups.

    Thank God family law in Islam favors the father- CAUSE THAT BENEFITS THE CHILD.

    If- if, one has to restrict the rights of child bearing-age women to prevent society’s/nations death- I say restrict the rights of child bearing-age women.

    You say, “well basiji-jan OK let’s have children but what about the cost, with this shitty economic situation.”

    Answer: when you prioritize jobs- especially entry level jobs- for married men, followed by young men who are new entries to the labor INSTEAD OF GIRLS BETWEEN 18-30 AS IS THE CASE CURRENTLY IN IRAN- you will see average wages double and more.

    Thus a law giving priority to married men with children in govt jobs- and tax and insurance incentives in the private sector to encourage the same their is urgently needed. Of course Jenabe Rohani or Larijani don’t have the balls to even hint at this problem.

    Women who choose to stay home should of course get a monthly wage plus extra for any child they have.

    You ask: “who will pay for this genius?”

    Answer: Privatizing just one these ashqal teams like Persepolis or Esteghlal and spending the money on mothers will do the job.

    “This is the truth and the truth hurts”

  723. nico says:

    fyi says:
    October 11, 2013 at 9:59 am

    “human beings operate on the basis of an autonmous self; that freedom of choice is essential to all of human action as well as legal structures all over the world.”

    Thanks for you anwer.
    I easily accept that you have logic here and a point.

    That being said that is relative.
    Everyone is alienated by its environment and society.
    I am alienated by the MSM, the economic strings I am attached to or the social rules I am living with.
    Is the alienation in western civilization softer ? That remains to be seen. i.e . Incarceration rate.
    Is the alienation in western civilization more sophisticated ? Surely.
    Is the alienation in western civilization better or worse than in Iran ? Not comparable as each country has its own path, its own learning curve and its own degree of maturity in the path it has chosen.
    Is economic alienation better or worse than social alienation ? That is subject to debate. And western freedom is mainly coming from opulance.

    Put another way about the Iranian islamic disaster.
    Short coming needs to be criticized.
    However you cannot just slice the way Iran is managed in various topics that suit you the most.
    The IR needs to be taken as a whole.
    And the result of the revolution is not that bad (The glass half full if you will) when measured in term of hdi, social progress, economic progress, scientific progress, international relations, moral and principles, cultural strenght, etc…

    I mean would you have prefered a country with clerical leadership, sold to the Anglo and corrupt as hell like the Saudi ?

    When taken as a whole with each of its facets and led in term of macro policy the leadership of the IR is commandable.

    Everything is maybe not optimum when each subject is taken independently.
    But as a whole after a revolution the country has been put on perfect track based on its history and its sensitivities.
    Could it have been better ? Maybe.
    But it would be quite ARROGANT to claim so. Or out of frustration.

  724. fyi says:

    nico says:

    October 11, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    The actions of the Second Majlis were retrograde and harmful.

    The Islamic Estabishment saw the results in 2009 and still refuses to correct that error.

    The Prophet could bring the perpetual enemies – Ous and Khazrej – together; the Islamic Establishment has scceeded in alienating Muslism from their government.

    I prefer a country which is both Islamic and Republican.

    At the moment, Iran is neither fully Islamic nor fully Republican.

    Even Mr. Rafsanjani admits that the Islamic Establishment went too far in the defense of the Islamic Revolution & Government.

    The 8-th Article of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran, if realized, could along way to address the power imbalances between the state officials and those of the ordinary citizens.

    The state officials must fear the populace and not the other way around.

    And the sccuessive Majlis sessions seem to understand that, that is why they have never been to keen or anxious to try to develop the legal structures for the exercise of that right enshrined in the Iranian Constitution.

    I mean, why should they deviate from passing laws regarding Islamic Punishments – lashing, stoning, cutting off limbs etc. – and write laws that could enable any humble citizen to challenge – like the late Abuzar al Ghaffari – any and all state officals?

    No, that would never do; God forbid that they devolve power to the people that much.

    No, what is needed is to recruit envious ugly hussies to go and harass women under the guise of Islamic Piety.

    As for alienation – all human beings are alienated since they are in Exile from Paradise.

  725. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 11, 2013 at 9:59 am

    “As I stated before, there are issues that each country faces; no place is perfect and no human construct is that of Paradise on Earth.”

    I’d like to contribute to intelligent conversation. Are you ready? Here it goes: 2+2=4

    Please cool it with the applause. Or you’ll miss Pepe’s contribution.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/World/WOR-02-111013.html

  726. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    October 11, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    I find that irrelevant.

    I stated on this forum 2 years ago that the existence of Saudi Arabia is a threat to Islamic Republic of Iran and the overthrow of that government in the national interests of Iran.

    At that time, I recall I was characterized as “Hasbara”.

    Now, you are posting here a foreinger’s essay that essentially says the same thing that I stated years ago.

  727. James Canning says:

    Bibi Netanyahu is asking Britain to refrain from restoring normal relations with Iran, until Iran recognises Israel. Absurd demand.

    Financial Times today: “Israel asks UK to end Iran rapprochement”.

  728. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    October 11, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Who called you Hasbara?

    Of all people why would you SHOOT the messenger? Why call Pepe a foreigner?

  729. James Canning says:

    “The UK and Iran this week announced that they were taking initial steps towards reopening embassies closed since 2011. . . ”
    – – Financial Times today (Oct 11)

  730. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    The subway in Washington is “deplorable”? Maybe you mean New York City?

    I agree the US squanders fantastic sums on “defence”, when basic infrastructure is crumbling. Absurd, and dangerous.

  731. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    Yes, China is now the largest importer of oil on the planet. And, as you imply, this does mean China likely will have to get involved in Middle East affairs to a larger degree.

  732. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    October 11, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    They are a bunch of hypocrites. Selling God for money and power. Only God can avenge Himself on matters of His.

  733. Smith says:

    Corrupt hypocrites trying to kill the marriage in Iran: http://www.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=13920719000729

    No time in Iran’s long history the situation has been this bad.

  734. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 11, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    I suggest you go to Seoul and see theirs.

    Even Madrid’s is better.

    And Manhatan – and not just the subway – is quite a dilapitated place compared to London.

    As is said in Persian: “7 sets of pots & pans – nothing for lunch or dinner.”

  735. James Canning says:

    “[Netanyahu, in interview with FT] raised the spectre of Iranian missiles with nuclear payloads that could soon reach European cities such as London.”
    – – FT Oct 10

  736. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I agree with you that American cities could enjoy superb subway systems, if money squandered on unnecessary weapons etc instead was directed toward public transport.

  737. fyi says:

    All:

    A Turkish View:

    http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2013/10/11-us-iran-detente-welcome-news-turkey-kirisci-yorulmazlar

    The gist of this is to ensure that US would force concessions out of Iran on Syria and Iraq as well as on the nuclear file.

    Pathetique…

    What they could not get by themselves they beg US to get for them.

    If I were an American official, I would soon develop contempt for all these pygmies…

  738. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Is Netanyahu a liar? He is quoted today in the Financial Times: “Every Arab country shares my exact position, except for one: Syria.”

  739. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    I thought I had responded to your question. I favor geting rid of all unkes, globally. I am not aware of any country in the Persian Gulf that demands Britain get rid of its nukes. Obviously the focus should be on getting rid of Israel’s nukes. You think otherwise?

  740. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    You think Turkey is mistaken, to seek a compromise in Iraq that would satisfy Saudi Arabia?

  741. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 11, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    Not at all, he is telling the truth; Sunni Arab leaders and countries are against all things Iranian.

    Iranians should concentrate on consolidating their gains in the Shia Crescent and the leave the dogs to bark at the Mooon – as the Persian saying goes.

  742. James Canning says:

    Djavad Salehi-Isfahani (on Lobelog): “Rouhani sees his election as a historic opportunity to move Iran closer to a more pluralistic and tolerant society and not merely to settle the nuclear dispute.”

  743. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 11, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    Yes, she is mistaken to expect or to seek a compromise from the Shia Crescent in Syria or in Iraq when blood has been shed and their project has failed.

    Iranian leaders, indeed Iraqi Shia leaders, Kurds, Syrian Government leaders have no reason to concede anything or to cooperate on anything with Turkey and Saudi Arabai or Jordan.

    They have won and they have won BIG.

    Turks should have called the US-EU bluff of economic harm and refused to become instruments of wounding Iran through Syria.

    Turkey could have stayed netural, just like during the Iran-Iraq War.

    Now: Turkish relations with Iran cannot be repaired but could function on a transactional basis for the foreseeable future.

    Her relations with Syria are dead, finished, kaput for a very very long time – probably a generation (20 years).

    Saudi Arabia demonstrated – in less than 30 years and twice – that she remains an enemy of Iran.

    Iranians cannot have cordial relations with her until after that state changes her orientation about Iran; perhaps through a complete change of government and governing structures in which the Wahabi are expelled from the state.

  744. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I do not think it is in Iran’s own best interests to have perpetual low-grade civil war in Iraq.

    I of course regretted Turkey’s support for the insurgency in Syria.

  745. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    My understanding is that Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries were willing to accept Iranian enrichment to low levels, several years ago.

    Your belief Iran should pour fuel on the fire (of Sunni – Shia dispute) is unwise, in my view.

  746. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    October 11, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    Saudi Arabia, just like Axis Powers, is enemy of Iran.

    This fact cannot be altered unless and until there is a new regime in Riyadh.

    Sectarianism does not harm Iran; in Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon it deepens the dependence of non-Sunnis on Iran.

    And in Turkey, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Afghnaistan, and Pakistan it further harms those states’ polities by stimulating intra-Muslim strife.

    Needless of say, Israel is another beneficiary as these pygmies try to act like the late Chancellor Bismarck or the late Cardinal Richilieu.

    It is funny, in a perverse way.

  747. Rd. says:

    The NOT so Human Index..

    US per capita mil expenditure $2,200/year
    saudi not far behind,

    Iran $129/year..

    it seems, ‘generally’ all failed states are above $500/year

    UK
    france, etc..

    https://niloufarparsi.wordpress.com/

  748. nico says:

    fyi says:

    “If I were an American official, I would soon develop contempt for all these pygmies…”

    Be assured that is already what obtains and what obtained in the past

  749. Karl.. says:

    James

    No I asked if you support sanctions on UK?

  750. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Of course I do not support sanctions against the UK. You do? And purpose of them would be to?

  751. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    You argued that Netanyahu was correct to say all Arab countries other than Syria want Iran to stop all enrichment. You agree with Netanyahu Iraq wants Iran to stop all enrichment?

  752. fyi says:

    James Canning says:
    October 11, 2013 at 5:59 pm

    A nit; you must know.

  753. kooshy says:

    U.S.-Iran Détente Would Be Welcome News for Turkey
    By: Kemal Kirişci and Emirhan Yorulmazlar

    http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2013/10/11-us-iran-detente-welcome-news-turkey-kirisci-yorulmazlar

    An interesting point of view in this analysis Turkey seems being worried that a possible détente between Iran and US if implemented in a position of strength with Iranian upper hand this will undermine US’s regional client states including Turkey. Unfortunately that is a fact but a fact not caused by Iran a fact caused by these states incapability to resist, same is true even more with regard to Israel since she is a continued economic and security burden instead of contributor.

  754. Karl.. says:

    James

    Thats strange that you then support(ed) sanctions against Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran to end their WMD and nuclear program.

  755. M.Ali says:

    Rd. says:

    October 11, 2013 at 3:05 pm

    I search military expenditure per capita, and number one is UAE with 2,653 per capita.

    However, interestingly, thats calculated using UAE’s total population, however UAE around above 8 million population and only about 1 million of them are natives (that is, emaratis, with passports, rest have student or labor visas). That would give us USD 17,549, monthly would be USD 1462, basically UAE could get rid of their military expenditure and have every emarati have a monthly wage of USD 1462.

    What a waste of money.

  756. M.Ali says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:

    October 11, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    Isn’t it incredible that NOT putting on makeup for ONE segment makes the news?

  757. M.Ali says:

    FYI, a scenaria, if you will.

    You are your buddies, using “This is the truth and the truth hurts” campaign slogan have aquired most of the seats in the 10th Majlis.

    Laws are being written and proposed to reverse the Islamic Disaster, and respect the individual rights, which you have been strongly advocating in your political campaign. Your friends in the Majlis have taken your advice and written the below laws. My question is, which ones would you vote yes?

    1) Islamic Same Sex Right to Private Love Act: Men will be allowed to engage freely in sexual relations with other men, and would be allowed to marry each other. Women would have the same privilege.

    2) The Freedom from Censorship Act: Only God can aggrovate anything and every men and women should be free to decide for themselves to watch whatever they want. They are not kids and what right do bearded hypocrites have to decide for them. Therefore all pornography, without any limits (beastiality, snuff, pedophilia, rape fantasies, etc) are to be allowed.

    3) The Right to Fuck Whoever and Whenever You Want Act: Since there are already sex orgies in every corner of Iran, this doesn’t change much, but just legalizes it, so they don’t have to worry about bearded hypocrites and “ugly hussies” burging in and hitting them on their heads with a baton.

    4) The Right to Dress Your Way Act: It’s truly disgusting that the government enforces how women and men should dress, therefore, this act changes the law for the government to have NO enforement on dress. Women can come out however they please, and for those few men that like to walk around with their wangs hanging out, while smoking a fag, they will be allowed to.

    5) Act Freely Act: One is born only once, and they should not allow a Government to trample on their instrintic rights, so Act Freely Act, allows you to behave however you want in public. Does a person desire to walk around with a cucumber up their ass, and then use that to make Mast-o-Khiar? We say, Why? The Act Freely Act says, Why not?

    6) Hands of My Womb, Punks Act: Every Iranian is sick of the Government controlling women’s wombs, therefore this allows women completely autonomy of their wombs, and all the gadgets that come with it. Women would be allowed to provide the womb at their service of anyone they desire, such as freinds, family, and passing dogs, without any bearded hypocrite getting between a lady and her womb. She will also be able to sell her womb to whoever she pleases, either by allowing people to impregnate her for a fee, or just test drive it.

    Looking forward to your honest votes.

  758. Neo says:

    Rd. says: October 11, 2013 at 3:05 pm

    Great link! Thanks for sharing.

    It really gives a clear description of who the biggest warmongers are.

    What is all the noise on Iran about really?

  759. Neo says:

    M.Ali says: October 12, 2013 at 4:42 am

    Ali,

    I usually enjoy your posts, but this is just low…

    Btw, I would gladly support most of those votes.

    1. same sex marriage is an act of love and brings no harm other than to bigots
    2. adults should have full access to any info, including porn and subversive ideologies
    3. of course people should be free to have sex with whom they like. why is this even an issue? how dare anyone interfere with people’s personal choices in how they handle their own bodies?
    4. what kind of an extremist idiot would want to tell other adults how to dress themselves? Oh wait, I know…
    5. Perhaps walking around ‘with a cucumber…’ is not the desired situation, but for sure only a fascist type of mentality would want to interfere with the freedom to act as one wishes
    6. hands off my womb indeed. how dare anyone interfere with women’s right to control their own womb? what kind of a sick mentality would argue with such a basic human right? Oh wait, I know…

  760. M.Ali says:

    Neo,

    I have no issue with you voting yes on them. I support consistancy.

    My issue would be, if someone says,
    The government has no right to impose hijab on a woman! Thats none of the government’s responsibility, every women should decide to wear a hijab or not..!!
    …but they shouldn’t go around naked.

    For example, I’ve seen that you are consistant in your posts, which I respect. I remember you saying you are an athiest, and I 100% respect that.

    The reason I mentioned those particular “Acts”, is not that I am for or against it (like usual, I’ve not really put forward my own personal views), but I am put them because I have senses that fyi is usually against such things, therefore he gives contradictary statements. He says that a government shouldn’t interfere with woman’s hijab, but I’m not sure if he is okay with a woman naked or not.

    If he is okay with a woman going around naked, and men having homosexual civic marriages, and all such, that it shows he is honest and consistant with his claims of a government not getting involved with people’s lives. I WOULD respect that. Completely.

    But my concern is that people like fyi are not consistant.

    That would be like saying that:

    equality should be given to everyone!…except blacks
    tolerance for all religions!…except Hindus
    no control over women’s dress…except they shouldn’t be naked
    no control over people’s right to marriage…except man and man

    I’m only bringing this up, because this inconsistancy is something I have seen all my life, and it becomes dishonest. Its like how you see certain young men in Iran, very liberal, spouting about how, woman should have every right such as men, that if men go around screwing everyone, so should women…except my sister.

    I have no problem with proclamations, I have a problem with the “except” part, specially when it is not logical or based on the initial statement.

    For example, in regards to government control over clothing, I respect someone that says,
    1) Yes, the government should control every article of clothing

    2) No, clothes are a private matter and the government has no right to dictate any part of clothing, including if the person desires to come out naked

    3) The government should control some part of a subject’s dress, however, this should be balanced, and I think that completely naked is not appropriate for a community, but at the same time, enforcing hijab is also not right

    I respect ALL THREE of the above stances.
    What I don’t respect or agree or tolerate is someone going by the second part of the above, and changing it with an except, which is,

    4) No, clothes are a private matter and the government has no right to dictate any part of clothing…except *personal condition*

    Do you see what I mean now?

  761. Rehmat says:

    “Israel and Netanyahu represent the biggest and most powerful obstacle to the growing “tide of peace”. Given its status as a pariah state and the global community’s negative view of Israel and its bullying Prime Minister, Netanyahu has to rely almost exclusively on the US to maintain its monopoly of nuclear weapons in the region, its vast stockpile of chemical weapons and its military supremacy in the Middle East. The White House and the US Congress are crucial institutions backing Israel’s ambition for uncontested hegemony in the Middle East. And the Zionist Power Configuration is decisive in setting US policy throughout the region,” professor James Petras.

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/10/12/james-petras-obama-is-a-zionist-lackey/

  762. Rehmat says:

    @ M. Ali

    You must read my good-old Calgary Jewish professor Henry Makow to understand the difference between “Burka and Bikini”. I bet it will pull you out the smokescreen.

    http://www.savethemales.ca/180902.html

  763. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    M Ali-jan,

    You’re comic genius…where the hell have you been hiding?

    “5) Act Freely Act: One is born only once, and they should not allow a Government to trample on their instrintic rights, so Act Freely Act, allows you to behave however you want in public. Does a person desire to walk around with a cucumber up their ass, and then use that to make Mast-o-Khiar? We say, Why? The Act Freely Act says, Why not?

    This is an instant classic.

    Groucho Marx, Richard Pryor and Mel Brooks would be proud of you.

    Remember there ain’t no cure for “kos-kholiat”. Add “goozpich” to the diagnosis and the prognosis is not good.

    Only remedy: Humor

    For the record: I’m “consistently” in favor of controlling female wombs and women’s clothing in public as well as discriminating against women 18-35 in the job market and discriminating in favor of married men in the job market…for the record.

    Neo-jan,

    Remember that the “fascist bigots” won in Iran and that’s why the influence of Zionists, homos and feminists is at minimum in Iran (or “Zionist homo feminists” for that matter).

    And we thank the Lord each and every day for that and our best sacrificed themselves so that the “fascist bigots” would win.

    Ruhe-shan shad.

  764. fyi says:

    M.Ali says:
    October 12, 2013 at 4:42 am

    No thanks, you seem to be obsessed with sex.

  765. fyi says:

    All:

    A view by Ambassador Peter Jenkins:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/10366939/The-West-must-be-flexible-in-dealing-with-Iran.html

    I must say that seems to be the best that Axis Powers could be expected to offer Iran; a derogation of NPT just in case of Iran and its restoration at some future time wholly determined by Axis Powers.

    In the mean time, Iran’s technological progress is to be halted….

  766. Dan Cooper says:

    Obama Five Years a Zionist Lackey

    The Zionists seek to sabotage diplomacy in order to push the US into another Gulf war which they believe will establish Israel as the un-challenged regional hegemon.

    Unconditional support for Israel, including the ‘sale’ of advanced weapons and an annual $3 billion dollars ‘aid’ package to a racist regime intent on more land grabs in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, as well as the displacing, killing, arresting and torturing of thousands of Palestinians and Bedouins.

    The sending of the US Naval armada to the Persian Gulf while imposing even more brutal economic sanctions drafted by Israeli-Firsters in order to strangle the Iranian economy and starve its over 70 million citizens into submission.

    Israel and Netanyahu represent the biggest and most powerful obstacle to the growing “tide of peace”.

    Given its status as a pariah state and the global community’s negative view of Israel and its bullying Prime Minister, Netanyahu has to rely almost exclusively on the US to maintain its monopoly of nuclear weapons in the region, its vast stockpile of chemical weapons and its military supremacy in the Middle East.

    The White House and the US Congress are crucial institutions backing Israel’s ambition for uncontested hegemony in the Middle East.

    The Zionist Power Configuration (ZPC) is decisive in setting US policy throughout the region.

    The ZPC operates on several levels:

    (1) dozens of Zionist billionaires and millionaires fund Washington-based propaganda mills (so-called ‘think tanks’), an army of pro-Israel Middle East ‘experts’ and Ivy League publicists, the 52 major American Zionist organizations and their 300,00 zealous militants. They pour tens of millions of dollars into electoral campaigns throughout the country, rewarding compliant politicians who support any legislation or resolution submitted by Zionist politicos and lobbyists (while brutally punishing any congressional ‘dissenters)’.

    (2) Dozens of Zionist zealots occupy key positions within the Administration, especially as appointees dealing with the Middle East and Treasury, ensuring that US policymakers impose economic sanctions on Israel’s enemies and pursue wars in Israel’s interests. They unconditionally back Israel in its attacks on its neighbors and block any sanctioning vote in the UN. They make sure that Israel receives the most advanced weapons and the US Treasury pays its annual $3 billion-plus dollar tribute to the Jewish State.

    (3) The Presidents of the 52 Major American Jewish Organizations and their militants ensure local and national support for Israel, even at the expense of domestic US interests and priorities. The zealots actively intervene to ban, censor or threaten the employment of any critic of Israel or the ZPC – extending to the most mundane local level of harassment. They successfully limit the content and participants in the mass media, world affairs forums and university programs with their threats and bullying.

    The mass media are controlled by pro-Israel moguls, news reporters, and commentators who mold public perception of Israel claiming it to be a ‘bastion of democracy’ while labelling Iran a “terrorist Islamist dictatorship”. Media analyst Steve Lendman describes, in his article entitled, “Israel Launches Anti-Rohani Media Blitz,” Netanyahu’s repeated lies on questions pertaining to Iran’s nuclear program and how the major US news media parrot Israel’s bellicose propaganda. The New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, and Bloomberg back Netanyahu’s demand for harsh economic sanctions and threats of aggression against Iran. The Daily Alert, mouthpiece of the 52 Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organization, reproduces and circulates scores of libelous polemical diatribes denigrating President Rohani, and slavishly praise each and every bellicose eruption out from the mouths of Israeli politicians and generals. For example, leading Zionist propagandist, Jeffrey Goldberg calls President Rohani a “dishonest war monger,” dismissing his peace overtures because he is not “ready to shut down his country’s nuclear program”. Aaron David Miller, another one of Israel’s Washington intellectuals, echoes Netanyahu’s “concerns about wily Iranian mullahs bearing gifts” while demanding that the US government “take care of Israel’s concerns”. The Zionist demand that the US “secure Israel’s concerns” is a no-brainer because the Jewish state is determined to strip Iran of its sovereignty, surrender its entire medical and civilian nuclear program, and submit to Israeli regional hegemony…

    The US and British press reported that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) has launched their own ‘full-scale invasion’ of the US Congress, sending over 300 full-time lobbyists to sabotage any form of rapprochement between the US and Iran. Just prior to the UN General Assembly meeting, AIPAC militants were writing legislation for the US Congress, which imposed new additional sanctions to further undermine Iranian oil exports; their efforts secured “bi-partisan” support of over 300 members of Congress. While President Obama faces a divided Congress, the Israel-Firsters from AIPAC easily secure a near unanimous vote to scupper any diplomatic dialog between Washington and Teheran. These new extremist sanctions were dictated by the Israeli Foreign Office and are designed to sabotage any White House negotiations.

    While some corporate newspapers, like the Financial Times, describe the “suspicions in Congress which raise the bar for a deal”, they fail to mention the extraordinary intervention and influence of AIPAC in sowing these “suspicions” and authoring all anti-Iran legislation over the past two years! The mass media covers up the central role of the ZPC in opposing a US dialogue with Iran, and in subverting the push for peace favored by the vast majority of war-weary and economically-battered Americans. Even ‘progressive and leftist’ weeklies, monthlies and quarterlies are silent on the overwhelming role of the ZPC. Leading left journalists systematically skirt around any in- depth discussion of the AIPAC and the 52 pro-Israel Jewish organizations in manipulating the US Congress, the mass media and the Executive branch.

    Any writer who attends US legislative committee hearings on the Middle East or o