Petrodollars, Petroyuan, and the Ongoing Erosion of American Hegemony

WFRJulyAug2014

The World Financial Review has published our latest piece, “The Rise of the Petroyuan and the Slow Erosion of Dollar Hegemony.”

–In it, we explain how, for four decades, the dollar’s standing as the world’s most important currency—which has undergirded much of America’s post-World War II primacy in international affairs—has rested largely on the greenback’s dominant role in international energy markets.  In explaining this, we underscore that Washington’s ability to leverage the security concerns of Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf Arab states to influence their decision-making on how their oil exports are priced and their petrodollar surpluses recycled has been central to consolidating and maintaining the dollar’s unique role in international energy markets.

–We also explain how China’s rise, as a global economic power and as Persian Gulf energy producers’ most important incremental market, poses the biggest challenge yet to the indefinite prolongation of dollar dominance, in international energy markets and more generally.  In this regard, the emergence of the “petroyuan” alongside the petrodollar will almost certainly accelerate the ongoing erosion of America’s wider hegemony.

While we don’t explore this in great detail in the article, there is an important Iranian angle to our story:  for over four decades, ruling elites in Saudi Arabia and some of its Persian Gulf Arab neighbors have feared the rise of a modern, economically advanced Iran; this grounds a large share of the concerns felt by Gulf Arab elites that the United States has leveraged to create and perpetuate the oil-dollar nexus.

— In the 1970s, Persian Gulf Arab states watched as late imperial Iran grew richer from higher oil prices, converted much of its wealth into a large, sophisticated, and mostly U.S.-supplied military apparatus and began to assert Iranian power around the Persian Gulf.

–From the 1979 Iranian Revolution, the Saudis and some of their Gulf Arab neighbors have been even more worried about the Islamic Republic of Iran.  While Iran’s conventional military capabilities have atrophied severely since the revolution, the Islamic Republic’s model of participatory governance combined with indigenous technological advancement and foreign policy independence represents a different sort of “threat” to Gulf Arab polities.

–More recently, as we note in our article, in many ways the petroyuan got its start in Iran; for several years now, China has paid for some of its oil imports from the Islamic Republic with renminbi.

To read the article, please go to http://www.worldfinancialreview.com/ or click here for the PDF.  We’ve also appended the text (with links) below. 

The Rise of the Petroyuan and the Slow Erosion of Dollar Hegemony

by Flynt Leverett and Hillary Mann Leverett

 For seventy years, one of the critical foundations of American power has been the dollar’s standing as the world’s most important currency.  For the last forty years, a pillar of dollar primacy has been the greenback’s dominant role in international energy markets.  Today, China is leveraging its rise as an economic power, and as the most important incremental market for hydrocarbon exporters in the Persian Gulf and the former Soviet Union to circumscribe dollar dominance in global energy—with potentially profound ramifications for America’s strategic position.             

Since World War II, America’s geopolitical supremacy has rested not only on military might, but also on the dollar’s standing as the world’s leading transactional and reserve currency.  Economically, dollar primacy extracts “seignorage”—the difference between the cost of printing money and its value—from other countries, and minimises U.S. firms’ exchange rate risk.  Its real importance, though, is strategic:  dollar primacy lets America cover its chronic current account and fiscal deficits by issuing more of its own currency—precisely how Washington has funded its hard power projection for over half a century.    

Since the 1970s, a pillar of dollar primacy has been the greenback’s role as the dominant currency in which oil and gas are priced, and in which international hydrocarbon sales are invoiced and settled.  This helps keep worldwide dollar demand high.  It also feeds energy producers’ accumulation of dollar surpluses that reinforce the dollar’s standing as the world’s premier reserve asset, and that can be “recycled” into the U.S. economy to cover American deficits.

Many assume that the dollar’s prominence in energy markets derives from its wider status as the world’s foremost transactional and reserve currency.  But the dollar’s role in these markets is neither natural nor a function of its broader dominance.  Rather, it was engineered by U.S. policymakers after the Bretton Woods monetary order collapsed in the early 1970s, ending the initial version of dollar primacy (“dollar hegemony 1.0”).  Linking the dollar to international oil trading was key to creating a new version of dollar primacy (“dollar hegemony 2.0”)—and, by extension, in financing another forty years of American hegemony.

Gold and Dollar Hegemony 1.0 

Dollar primacy was first enshrined at the 1944 Bretton Woods conference, where America’s non-communist allies acceded to Washington’s blueprint for a postwar international monetary order.  Britain’s delegation—headed by Lord Keynes—and virtually every other participating country, save the United States, favoured creating a new multilateral currency through the fledgling International Monetary Fund (IMF) as the chief source of global liquidity.  But this would have thwarted American ambitions for a dollar-centered monetary order.  Even though almost all participants preferred the multilateral option, America’s overwhelming relative power ensured that, in the end, its preferences prevailed.  So, under the Bretton Woods gold exchange standard, the dollar was pegged to gold and other currencies were pegged to the dollar, making it the main form of international liquidity.

There was, however, a fatal contradiction in Washington’s dollar-based vision.  The only way America could diffuse enough dollars to meet worldwide liquidity needs was by running open-ended current account deficits.  As Western Europe and Japan recovered and regained competitiveness, these deficits grew.  Throw in America’s own burgeoning demand for dollars—to fund rising consumption, welfare state expansion, and global power projection—and the U.S. money supply soon exceeded U.S. gold reserves.  From the 1950s, Washington worked to persuade or coerce foreign dollar holders not to exchange greenbacks for gold.  But insolvency could be staved off for only so long:  in August 1971, President Nixon suspended dollar-gold convertibility, ending the gold exchange standard; by 1973, fixed exchange rates were gone, too.

These events raised fundamental questions about the long-term soundness of a dollar-based monetary order.  To preserve its role as chief provider of international liquidity, the U.S. would have to continue running current account deficits.  But those deficits were ballooning, for Washington’s abandonment of Bretton Woods intersected with two other watershed developments: America became a net oil importer in the early 1970s; and the assertion of market power by key members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) in 1973-1974 caused a 500% increase in oil prices, exacerbating the strain on the U.S. balance of payments.  With the link between the dollar and gold severed and exchange rates no longer fixed, the prospect of ever-larger U.S. deficits aggravated concerns about the dollar’s long-term value.

These concerns had special resonance for major oil producers.  Oil going to international markets has been priced in dollars, at least since the 1920s—but, for decades, sterling was used at least as frequently as dollars in order to settle transnational oil purchases, even after the dollar had replaced sterling as the world’s preeminent trade and reserve currency.  As long as sterling was pegged to the dollar and the dollar was “as good as gold,” this was economically viable.  But, after Washington abandoned dollar-gold convertibility and the world transitioned from fixed to floating exchange rates, the currency regime for oil trading was up for grabs.  With the end of dollar-gold convertibility, America’s major allies in the Persian Gulf—the Shah’s Iran, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia—came to favour shifting OPEC’s pricing system, from denominating prices in dollars to denominating them in a basket of currencies.

In this environment, several of America’s European allies revived the idea (first broached by Keynes at Bretton Woods) of providing international liquidity in the form of an IMF-issued, multilaterally-governed currency—so-called “Special Drawing Rights” (SDRs).  After rising oil prices engorged their current accounts, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Arab allies of the United States pushed for OPEC to begin invoicing in SDRs.  They also endorsed European proposals to recycle petrodollar surpluses through the IMF, in order to encourage its emergence as the main post-Bretton Woods provider of international liquidity.  That would have meant Washington could not continue to print as many dollars, as it wanted to support rising consumption, mushrooming welfare expenditures, and sustained global power projection.  To avert this, American policymakers had to find new ways to incentivise foreigners to continue holding ever-larger surpluses of what were now fiat dollars.

Oil and Dollar Hegemony 2.0

To this end, U.S. administrations from the mid-1970s devised two strategies.  One was to maximise demand for dollars as a transactional currency.  The other was to reverse Bretton Woods’ restrictions on transnational capital flows; with financial liberalisation, America could leverage the breadth and depth of its capital markets, and it could cover its chronic current account and fiscal deficits by attracting foreign capital at relatively low cost.  Forging strong links between hydrocarbon sales and the dollar proved critical on both fronts.

To forge such links, Washington effectively extorted its Gulf Arab allies, quietly conditioning U.S. guarantees of their security to their willingness to financially help the United States.  Reneging on pledges to its European and Japanese partners, the Ford administration clandestinely pushed Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Arab producers to recycle substantial parts of their petrodollar surpluses into the U.S. economy through private (largely U.S.) intermediaries, rather than through the IMF.  The Ford administration also elicited Gulf Arab support for Washington’s strained finances, reaching secret deals with Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates for their central banks to buy large volumes of U.S. Treasury securities outside normal auction processes.  These commitments helped Washington prevent the IMF from supplanting the United States as the main provider of international liquidity; they also gave a crucial early boost to Washington’s ambitions to finance U.S. deficits by recycling foreign dollar surpluses via private capital markets and purchases of U.S. government securities.

A few years later, the Carter administration struck another secret deal with the Saudis, whereby Riyadh committed to exert its influence to ensure that OPEC continued pricing oil in dollars.  OPEC’s commitment to the dollar as the invoice currency for international oil sales was key to broader embrace of the dollar as the oil market’s reigning transactional currency.  As OPEC’s administered price system collapsed in the mid-1980s, the Reagan administration encouraged universalised dollar invoicing for cross-border oil sales on new oil exchanges in London and New York.  Nearly universal pricing of oil—and, later on, gas—in dollars has bolstered the likelihood that hydrocarbon sales will not just be denominated in dollars, but settled in them as well, generating ongoing support for worldwide dollar demand.

In short, these bargains were instrumental in creating “dollar hegemony 2.0.”  And they have largely held up, despite periodic Gulf Arab dissatisfaction with America’s Middle East policy, more fundamental U.S. estrangement from other major Gulf producers (Saddam Hussein’s Iraq and the Islamic Republic of Iran), and a flurry of interest in the “petro–Euro” in the early 2000s.  The Saudis, especially, have vigorously defended exclusive pricing of oil in dollars.  While Saudi Arabia and other major energy producers now accept payment for their oil exports in other major currencies, the larger share of the world’s hydrocarbon sales continue to be settled in dollars, perpetuating the greenback’s status as the world’s top transactional currency.  Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Arab producers have supplemented their support for the oil-dollar nexus with ample purchases of advanced U.S. weapons; most have also pegged their currencies to the dollar—a commitment which senior Saudi officials describe as “strategic.”  While the dollar’s share of global reserves has dropped, Gulf Arab petrodollar recycling helps keep it the world’s leading reserve currency.             

The China Challenge

Still, history and logic caution that current practices are not set in stone.  With the rise of the “petroyuan,” movement towards a less dollar-centric currency regime in international energy markets—with potentially serious implications for the dollar’s broader standing—is already underway.

As China has emerged as a major player on the global energy scene, it has also embarked on an extended campaign to internationalise its currency.  A rising share of China’s external trade is being denominated and settled in renminbi; issuance of renminbi-denominated financial instruments is growing.  China is pursuing a protracted process of capital account liberalisation essential to full renminbi internationalisation, and is allowing more exchange rate flexibility for the yuan.  The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) now has swap arrangements with over thirty other central banks—meaning that renminbi already effectively functions as a reserve currency.

Chinese policymakers appreciate the “advantages of incumbency” the dollar enjoys; their aim is not for renminbi to replace dollars, but to position the yuan alongside the greenback as a transactional and reserve currency.  Besides economic benefits (e.g., lowering Chinese businesses’ foreign exchange costs), Beijing wants—for strategic reasons—to slow further growth of its enormous dollar reserves.  China has watched America’s increasing propensity to cut off countries from the U.S. financial system as a foreign policy tool, and worries about Washington trying to leverage it this way; renminbi internationalisation can mitigate such vulnerability.  More broadly, Beijing understands the importance of dollar dominance to American power; by chipping away at it, China can contain excessive U.S. unilateralism.

China has long incorporated financial instruments into its efforts to access foreign hydrocarbons.  Now Beijing wants major energy producers to accept renminbi as a transactional currency—including to settle Chinese hydrocarbon purchases—and incorporate renminbi in their central bank reserves.  Producers have reason to be receptive.  China is, for the vastly foreseeable future, the main incremental market for hydrocarbon producers in the Persian Gulf and former Soviet Union.  Widespread expectations of long-term yuan appreciation make accumulating renminbi reserves a “no brainer” in terms of portfolio diversification.  And, as America is increasingly viewed as a hegemon in relative decline, China is seen as the preeminent rising power.  Even for Gulf Arab states long reliant on Washington as their ultimate security guarantor, this makes closer ties to Beijing an imperative strategic hedge.  For Russia, deteriorating relations with the United States impel deeper cooperation with China, against what both Moscow and Beijing consider a declining, yet still dangerously flailing and over-reactive, America.

For several years, China has paid for some of its oil imports from Iran with renminbi; in 2012, the PBOC and the UAE Central Bank set up a $5.5 billion currency swap, setting the stage for settling Chinese oil imports from Abu Dhabi in renminbi—an important expansion of petroyuan use in the Persian Gulf.  The $400 billion Sino-Russian gas deal that was concluded this year apparently provides for settling Chinese purchases of Russian gas inrenminbi; if fully realised, this would mean an appreciable role for renminbi in transnational gas transactions.

Looking ahead, use of renminbi to settle international hydrocarbon sales will surely increase, accelerating the decline of American influence in key energy-producing regions.  It will also make it marginally harder for Washington to finance what China and other rising powers consider overly interventionist foreign policies—a prospect America’s political class has hardly begun to ponder.

–Flynt Leverett and Hillary Mann Leverett

 

395 Responses to “Petrodollars, Petroyuan, and the Ongoing Erosion of American Hegemony”

  1. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Very glad to see our hosts agreeing with matters I mentioned some years ago.

    “…And to Allah belong the armies of the heavens and the earth.”

    From an economic nationalist perspective, the “petroyuan” would be no better for Iran than the “petrodollar” if Iranian oil is sold cheaply to China for pieces of paper with Chinese printed on it which are then used to buy consumer and industrial products from China to be used by Iranian consumers- ofcourse the dalal bitches making the profits in between.

    You see then I would have to start “chopping the heads off” of the Chinese lobby in Iran.

  2. James Canning says:

    Saudi Arabia prices its oil, and adjusts its oil production, to keep oil prices as high as possible over time. The US in fact has fairly little to do with Saudi adjustments to oil prices and production.

  3. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    “What do you recommend; a police state? Like Saudi Arabia?”

    How about an Islamic Republic where the democratically elected local and national officials show respect to the religious and moral values of the majority of the population.

    What do you recommend? A police state (like the Pahlavi regime) with forced secularization and westernization from top down by arrogant perverted western wanna-bees apeing Europeans?

    It’s OK, you can say it if that’s what you feel deep down in your heart.

  4. Amir says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    July 30, 2014 at 2:13 pm
    What do you recommend? A police state (like the Pahlavi regime) with forced secularization and westernization?

    Well done! Spot on!
    Still, “someone” couldn’t bring himself to accept that maybe, just maybe, he is wrong.

  5. yk says:

    Amir

    That is what lead the world to this junction, that is attempt to impose an alien value on another society. The most surprising thing is that those that always clamour for secular liberal values are those that usually refused to accept that they might be wrong sometimes feeling they have a duty to enlighten the uncivilised masses. Does the white man’s burden ring a bell, you bet it does.

    fyi

    You are very funny, so you want to take the opinion of Two iranian ladies on this forum to judge the issue of gender segregation in Tehran?! lol. I expect you to do better than that at least present a credible poll that indicate that majority of the ladies affected see this as imposition. Till then, you are just pontificating and it makes you appear like a liberal imperialist.

  6. Nasser says:

    I keep finding these Israeli commentators to be lot more honest than Americans

    “Three Reasons Iran Won’t Give up Its Nuclear Program”

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/three-reasons-iran-wont-give-its-nuclear-program-10982

  7. Karl.. says:

    Amir
    from the other article/post

    Some people here argue like neocons, if women are so oppressed, if the clergy have too much power etcetera well then why arent we supporting regime change like any ohter neocons?
    I thought it was up to Iran and no one else to decide how to run their place.

  8. kooshy says:

    Nasser you got another more honest Israeli analyst? What do you think his first reason?

    “1. States that (could) have had nuclear weapons programs and gave them up had close ties to the U.S.
    Most states with close military and economic ties to the U.S. forego the pursuit of nuclear weapons in the first place. Their leaders are savvy enough to realize that a nuclear weapons program would jeopardize their ties with America.”

    Really, good to know, than one needs to know if Israel/UK/France have gave up their nuclear weapons or no longer they are US’ clients, Nasser jaan did you read this article you posting ? If so, please give us your opinion if you think his first reason is factual?, As for me, usually when I see the first line of Hasbara in western press of any kind I don’t bother with the rest.

  9. fyi says:

    yk says:

    July 30, 2014 at 4:08 pm

    My position has been very clear: I stand for Liberty and the Rule of Law that does not infringe upon intrinsic and God-given rights of the human beings.

    I stand for respect for the Individual and his short Life and am opposed to all those who wish to arrogate to themselves God’s prerogative of judging what is in the Hearts of Men.

    As for women, their clothing, their comings and goings – it is not my place to decide those – it is their decisions and their alone.

    The world will never welcome sanctimonious fools whose only joy in life is to kill joy in others.

    The world will always welcome such great men and women as the late Aghassi, who made a country dance, and Dame Vera Lynn, without whom the English very likely would have lost World War II.

  10. kooshy says:

    “Dr. Albert B. Wolf is an Israel Institute Fellow with the Leonard Davis Institute for International Relations at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
    He is currently writing a book examining the effectiveness of coercive diplomacy in curbing nuclear proliferation.”

    Is very naïve to think a professor in an Israeli university which probably is founded by US NPO’s donations is going to be more honest than his founders in other western media? Is just like to think that you can find a western MSM journalist that is going to have his own independent political opinion and there to give it to his editor and keep his job.

  11. nico says:

    fyi says:
    July 30, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    “As for women, their clothing, their comings and goings – it is not my place to decide those – it is their decisions and their alone.

    The world will never welcome sanctimonious fools whose only joy in life is to kill joy in others.”

    Truly bullshit, lala land, sophistic argument.
    Based on emotional feeling and irrational, illogical construct.

    Every and each community whatever its organization has social rules.
    Who are you to state what is good or bad for others ?
    Only majority of the population of a given coehsive society could be legitimate to impose such rule to itself.

    Your point is thus totally worthless as the Iranian system is much more legitimacy in regard to his own population thatn the US system.

    Take back your slippery argument and keep it safe for your dicussions in your lodge.

    Typical false progressive and imperial humanitarian extremist

  12. fyi says:

    Nasser says:

    July 30, 2014 at 4:13 pm

    I think that is a fair but incomplete synopsis; it does not include the dismantling of the Peace of Yalta world and its institutions such as UN, NPT, IMF, the World Bank, Dollar as Reserve Currency of the World Trade, etc.

    As the Peace of Yalta unravels, we should expect more war and more near-war or semi-war situations all over the world.

    One only has to look at the record of Axis Powers in creating state failure and wreckage in Libya, Iraq, Ukraine, Former Yugoslavia, and Afghanistan to conclude that the day their war stops, they have no capacity for building a durable peace.

  13. kooshy says:

    fyi says:
    July 30, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    I know this ranch in N. Dakota that the nearest place to it is at least 100 miles away, you can move there and be free of clothing restrictions or chose another planet and take off all your clothes if you want. As for LA you still needs some sort of clothes or you get arrested besides some restaurant here wouldn’t serve you wearing shorts and slippers, and then I know this IBM office that expects you to were a blue suit and tie, the Catholic Church next door prefers a scarf, and the Saudi founded mosque in Culver City really is asking for hijab, and then when I go to my Japanese friend place I must take my shoes off before entering his house. Should we give all this different restrictions ( social/ civic laws) up and move to ND ranch I told you?

  14. yk says:

    fyi
    Yeah speaks like a real neocon. Pray tell what rule of law as been violated when a society as decided to implement the demand of the majority? Or are you just pissed with the fact that bricklayers revolution could actually be implementing rule of law or geniue democracy something you considered exclusive right of the western society? Like I said and I meant no insult a little bit of down to earth reevaluation of your position especially on this issue will do you a lot of good. Please for ones get off your high horse, accept the fact that the bricklayers are actually making a success of their revolution without any blind parrot like imitations.

  15. fyi says:

    yk says:

    July 30, 2014 at 4:58 pm

    The demands of the majority cannot abrogate the intrinsic rights of the human beings – karamte ensani – endowed by God.

  16. nico says:

    kooshy says:
    July 30, 2014 at 4:50 pm

    I think it should be restated that the enlightment secular system is by itself a Religion.
    That is an idelogigy and a intellectual construct based on its own logic, faith, relativism and so called “eternal” or unquestionable principles and axioms.

    Just like Man being the center of the Universe being the basic postulate and aith not based on anything tangible.

    The issue with the so called enlightment system is that they believe they are the only ones to detain Reason. Others are charlatan, barbarians, backward, etc…

    It is the very root of the enlightment HUBRIS.

    Fyi just confessed that it is religious like ideology : “to infringe upon intrinsic and god given rights” other being “fools”
    Here and the then tye idiot states that no one (meaning stupid Eye-ranian believers in Iran) should not arrogate to themselves the right tl say what God Will while it is EXACTELY what he is doing !

    WOW… Doesn’t the guy have a serious problem to deal with ?????????????

  17. nico says:

    fyi says:

    July 30, 2014 at 5:11 pm

    “The demands of the majority cannot abrogate the intrinsic rights of the human beings – karamte ensani – endowed by God.”

    Do you mean the minorities can abrogate the rights of the majority just like in the West ?
    And who are you to decide what is God Will and what are intrinsic rights ? Evidently a brainwashed idiot.
    By God do you mean the God if Islam or the freemasonic one ? You know the fredmasonic Great Creator…

  18. yk says:

    fyi
    There’s a saying where I come from:

    “when a fish is still fresh you can bend it but when it becomes dried you can no longer bend it.”

    You assert that some are arrogating God to themselves prerogative while you are also emphasising on God given intrinsic value, did He speak to you about this value? Am sure He did not, so how did you become aware of these values?

    Please a word of advice try and take Kooshy’s idea so you can implement your own religion there am sure you will find your own followers.

  19. yk says:

    …God prerogative…

  20. James Canning says:

    Nasser,

    Iran is not being asked to “give up” its nuclear programme.

  21. fyi says:

    Yes, implicitly you are saying that Iranian women, indeed Muslims women, are harlots that need to be vigorously suppressed lest they run naked in the Tehran, Riyadh, Mosul, and other such places.

    Go to Laleih University and sit down on a bench and watch young people come and go as they please; without the moral police and without fear of harassment from the security organs of the state.

    Watch groups of young female students in which some are in hejab and some are not – getting along just fine, going about their business.

    Are they not Muslims?

    چو بشنوی سخن اهل دل، مگو که خطاست
    سخن شناس نیی جان من خطا این جاست

  22. fyi says:

    yk says:

    July 30, 2014 at 6:00 pm

    And hear my word of advice:

    مباش در پی آزار و هر چه خواهی کن

    که در شریعت ما غیر از این گناهی نیست

  23. Aletho says:

    The recycling of the petro-dollars into the US military industrial complex is the central story here. This economy of scale in weapons production has allowed for the development of the most destructive and terrifying killing machinery ever to darken the face of the Earth.

  24. kooshy says:

    fyi says:
    July 30, 2014 at 8:23 pm

    If you are responding to my comment, your exaggerated out of context interpolation is not at all what I said or meant. What I meant which you chose not respond is what makes you believe what you want or think is right is majority’s choice in Iran or anywhere else including in the west (like naked in beach, or no tie in IBM office), and if it is not, why the majority should still implement your will and want, and if they chose not to accommodate your want, what would or should you do, move out and go somewhere else? or stay and observe their ( THE majority) laws, and go inside your home get naked and nag as much as you want on why you couldn’t do it in Tajrish? Unlike what we are made to believe democracy is not about accommodation but rather is about observation otherwise we will have anarchy.

  25. Empty says:

    fyi,

    RE: The demands of the majority cannot abrogate the intrinsic rights of the human beings –karamte ensani – endowed by God.”

    With this statement, you are actually in full agreement with the people who argue for hejab and dress codes and codes of conduct in public and your statement, I think, is correct and true for almost all believers.

    The problem and disagreement appears to arise from how people define what “karamte ensani” is and who actually defines and interprets the term “karamat” and from which sources.

    For Muslims and believers, Quran is the ultimate arbiter of the actual definition of “karamat” and they want what Quran wants and to know what Quran wants, they refer to their ulama and researchers and experts in Quran. There is a consensus among all learners, researchers, and ulama working to interpret Quran that “taqwa” is the basis to judge “karamat”. They use Quran itself to extract an operational definition of “taqwa” in order to have some rules and regulations for the public life. When it comes to attire in public (please note that the regulation is only in Public and not in people’s private lives and the public majority is Muslim), there is a unanimous agreement among the learned and acceptance by the people that “taqwa” for human flesh and body is defined as: avoidance of exhibiting and flaunting of beauties of the body (except for face and hands in females and head, hands and feet for males) to non-mahrams, using ones body to attract sexual attention of people other than one’s own spouse, keeping one’s “eyes” and “faraj” from impurity, and so on (these apply to both men and women).

    Majority in Iran actually believes this (because they believe this is what God wants and not their own “hava o havas” – whimsical desires) and really want/demand some sort of regulation. The differences and disagreements are in “how” to enforce these regulations (with education and building cultural understanding or by force, etc.) and discriminatory enforcement of the rules based on gender and not in the actual existence of these regulations.

    So, if you go by majority rule, majority wants it. Majority wants this because they believe the learned and the researchers in Quran (which they believe is the word of God) have reached a consensus on what these regulations are.

    In your statements, there appears to be some sort of a contradiction: as it has been pointed out by others now and on various other occasions, all societies have some sort of a rule for public clothing. The limits of what to cover and not cover and how much to cover are usually determined by the policy makers. The policy makers in Iran (elected by people of Iran) were tasked to make the rules, to the best of their abilities, using Quran as their guide. They, in turn, turned to the experts of Quran for best judgment and interpretation. The experts in Quran are unanimous in their vote what the limits should be (again, based on their best judgment and interpretation of Quran). Therefore, whether you argue majority rule or God’s rule, you argument becomes quite weak and your insistence appears quite illogical. Or, if there is a logical foundation, it is not clear from your statements.

    Are you arguing no one knows what God wants, therefore, there should not be rules in this regard?

    If this is what you mean, the majority in Iran (who are Muslim and Shi’a) believe that God has communicated what God wants through written words and in a human language, in Quran. So, they refer to it for guidance and they refer to people who they believe to be the best experts on the subject matter.

    Are you arguing that how people appear in public should be decided by each individual and not a public ruling on that?

    If this is the case, a) are you asking a different standards to be applied to Iran or a Muslim society versus other societies on earth? That is, every society has a public rule for this except for Muslim societies? b)How do you propose to do this: Majority of the nearly 50 million people (men AND women) of voting age in Iran want some sort of regulation and enforcement. How would you suppose to have a public rule that fully satisfies individuals who are in minority in a way that does not turn into trumping of majority vote and a tyranny of minority over majority?

    Are you arguing for better methods of enforcement through perhaps more dignified approaches such as education and raising consciousness levels, etc.?

    If this is the case, you would find groups in Iran who would agree with you and are actually working to improve upon this through diverse venues.

  26. Amir says:

    fyi says:
    July 30, 2014 at 8:23 pm
    … “implicitly you are saying that Iranian women, indeed Muslims women, are harlots that need to be vigorously suppressed lest they run naked in the Tehran, Riyadh, Mosul, and other such places”.
    Now now, let’s not make rash statements here. You said earlier that not everyone is a fool in Iran, from which I assumed you meant there are fools in Iran and because you were kind enough to enclose a link I though maybe I should take a look at that and see what’s all this about. Because the issue has been going on in Iran for such a long time (since the dawn of the Islamic revolution, that women are being forced to wear hijab, but they truly don’t like this, etc) I was bound to have my personal opinion about that; this time, however, Islamic Republic of Iran’s opposition aimed at it from a new angle. They argued that Tehran mayor’s office is trying to separate people and “draw a wall” between men and women and discriminate against employees on the basis of their gender (the last one might be considered a new case against OUR country in the making), whereas Mr Ghalibaf explained the issue and mentioned it is a media hype (see my earlier posts). And some of us have had first hand experience that ladies do not want to be taken advantage of, or be placed in a vulnerable position (working with a male superior, in a confined space, alone, late a night, etc), and I seriously honestly doubt that female staff of Tehran municipality are working there solely in order to mingle with men.
    The whole issue here is that while we have cultural differences with, let’s say France, we can understand that maybe women in France want to mingle freely with men; why those in [hypothetically] France don’t even want to consider that maybe, just maybe Iranian women have different ideals and values?
    I promise, if you reconsider your position on this issue, I will not mock you.

  27. Amir says:

    Karl.. says:
    July 30, 2014 at 4:27 pm
    Until very recently I didn’t pay much attention to this aspect of the whole shenanigan of liberal media. But just a week ago I saw this: http://www.dw.de/%D8%A7%D8%B3%DA%A9%DB%8C-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A8%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%BA-%D8%AF%D8%A8%DB%8C-%D9%88-%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%A7%D8%A6%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D8%B3%DA%A9%DB%8C-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D8%B2%D9%85%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86/g-17810870
    If want to “liberate” Iranians as you suggest, could they please find a better argument? I don’t want my tombstone saying something like “though he never had the joy of skiing freely, future generations can ski all they want”. I must say, I’m not that much fond of skiing.

  28. Sineva says:

    James Canning says:
    July 30, 2014 at 6:05 pm
    No,its just now that it must accept a much reduced nuclear program subject to western oversight for a period of years if not decades,and indeed it wasnt all that long ago that the goal of the west was to indeed make iran “give up” its program thru sanctions,sabotage and assassinations

  29. Empty says:

    Amir,

    Regarding the link, it is so insane. In this dying, aching, resource depleted planet to brag about making artificial snow (which exacts incredible cost on the environment and is economically so costly) and in a country that pays slave wage to its imported workers in order to cater to a bunch of good for nothing “tanneh lash” and parasites so that they could have fun is just shameful and revolting.

  30. Nasser says:

    Some recent articles by Vladimir Yevseyev

    http://valdaiclub.com/asia/68860.html

    http:// journal-neo.org/2014/03/18/ukraine-america-s-strategic-error/

    http:// journal-neo.org/2014/07/27/emerging-twists-in-saudi-iran-relations-and-the-us-geo-politics/

    “Yevseyev believes that US position in the world will continue to erode. Washington lacks the military resources to simultaneously strengthen its positions in Europe, send warships to the Black Sea, increase capacity in Asia Pacific as a counterweight to China, and maintain its military presence in the Persian Gulf. If the United States lets up, so will NATO, the foundation of the US military structure.” – I would add that globally the best Iran can realistically hope for is that US/Western relations with Russia and eventually China will continue to erode to the point that they have to reduce their military presence and commitments in the Middle East. Such a situation would also create a very permissive global geopolitical environment for Iran to go overtly nuclear. I just hope Iran’s leaders would’t waste that historic opportunity. Because that is the only way to cement the Shia Crescent and usher in a new Islamic (Shia of course) great power that will no longer play the role of eternal victim ever at the mercy of the whims of other great powers.

  31. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    nico-jan,

    Notice I how explained that liberalism is the “cargo cult theology of capitalism…”

    Of course liberalism is a religion like Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc., only a complete fuckin idiot doesn’t realize this.

    So here we have it, it’s never about “religion or no religion”- it’s always about “which religion”.

    There’s no such thing as “non-religious”.

  32. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    yk-jan,

    “Or are you just pissed with the fact that bricklayers revolution could actually be implementing rule of law or geniue democracy something you considered exclusive right of the western society?”

    This is precisely and exactly the point that is severely and painfully burning his westoxicated ass.

  33. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Aletho,

    “The recycling of the petro-dollars into the US military industrial complex is the central story here. This economy of scale in weapons production has allowed for the development of the most destructive and terrifying killing machinery ever to darken the face of the Earth.”

    Precisely.

    And “the American people” aren’t going to do shit about it.

  34. fyi says:

    Empty says:

    July 30, 2014 at 11:38 pm

    As I said, go to Istanbul University and watch how all those young people come and go without fear from the security organs of the state.

    Some of the young women is hejab there wear very tasteful clothing, the state has not mandated their clothing.

    And then the same young women in hejab are walking with other young women who are not so – they chat and laugh and go about their business without fear of molestation by the moral police – which always seem to be the epitome of what Islam is.

    Their small short lives are not burnt by fools who wish to judge who is or is not a good Muslim.

    As I said before: the same fools have to admit, logically, that the muleteers that sodomized the late Lotf Ali Khan Zand, the late Qajar Shahs who presided over the destruction of Iranian powers, the late Shah Ismail, the late Mahmud Afghan, and the Afghan tribesmen who helped themselves to the Armenian young boys and girls as sexual war booty were all excellent Muslims in good standing – we just need to go back to those times.

    Neither you nor others such as yourself have any religious basis from which to criticize Taliban, or ISIS, or the Saudi Arabians moral police. For as long as you arrogate to yourselves or to the state the power to judge men and women and to ruin their lives we will be in this morass.

  35. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    July 30, 2014 at 11:55 pm

    Has the Iranian state truly rendered and enabled the women of Iran to make their own decisions?

    I think not.

    I recommend following “orf” – that has worked for centuries in this case and will continue to do so in the future.

    Go to Turkey and see for yourself how that could work…

    Turks are superior to Iranians in that respect…

  36. fyi says:

    Empty says:

    July 31, 2014 at 4:11 am

    The planet is not dying, aching or resource depleted; you have been listening to Eco-NAZIS and other fantasists in the Western World.

    There is plenty of everything – if US, China and Japan and Korea go on full production probably no one in the world has to work for a living.

  37. Empty says:

    fyi,

    You and James Canning are truly in a league of your own…

  38. fyi says:

    Nasser says:

    July 31, 2014 at 6:27 am

    I think Mr. Khamenei is aware of this historical opportunity others in Iranian leadership or in Iraq – I am not so sure.

  39. Amir says:

    fyi says:
    July 31, 2014 at 9:17 am

    Well your opinion isn’t really objective; you say “I think not”. But let’s put that aside for a moment. You mentioned “orf”, very well. Have you considered the point that in many places “orf” is much more conservative than “sharia”? I mean, the whole point of jurisprudence (am I using the word correctly?) in the Islamic Republic of Iran is that Sharia is a dynamic social force (consider Chess, music and women working outside the house before and after the Islamic Revolution).
    And you mentioned the Turks; they are hard working, God fearing, law abiding, descent people and I don’t think we are in a competition with them, rather cooperation.

  40. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    July 31, 2014 at 10:00 am

    I generally agree with your comments in regards to “orf”, “Sharia” etc. – if I recall correctly, Sharia does not approve of honor-killing which is “orf”.

    My point was that in this particular case, leave it to “orf” and get the state out of the business of trying to control women – and I think in Turkey you can see how well that is working.

    سری که درد نمی کنه رو دستمال نمی بندن

    The fundamental bane of all Islamic-based approaches to Life and Politics is the assignation of “good Muslim” or “bad Muslim” to this or that person. That is the path to ruination as the famous story of the late Nasser Khosrow and the shoemaker illustrates.

    This assignation, by necessity, also extends to the historical states and empires of the past – calling them un-Islamic or non-Islamic; excepting perhaps the 20-year ruler-ship of the late Imam Ali.

    Which then begs the question – which I have tried to raise in order to discredit that approach – “If they were not Islamic what were they?” Or, alternatively: “If Islamic piety or sharia are the end-purpose of the Islamic State, then what was wrong with the Qajars, or Taliban or Saudi Arabia?”

    Ultimately, we are facing 1300 years of bafflement – all these governments, all the application of Islamic Law over the same period of time – have not made Muslim people secure in their persons, in their property and in their namus.

    They are only so secure largely in the countries of the Axis Powers – where a Muslim can practice his religion freely and express his opinions without fear of attack by other Muslims.

    This fact must be faced.

  41. Amir says:

    fyi says:
    July 31, 2014 at 10:30 am

    Thanks for your reply. The goal in the Islamic Republic of Iran is a combination of Islamic piety and being a good Muslim, providing an environment for each citizen to reach his/her potential, security for citizens, assisting other Muslims and non-Muslims who are being oppressed, protecting our sovereignty after decades of foreign intrusions, even one article in the constitution mentions people’s right to descent accommodations (housing); now that you have mentioned that Farsi proverb, I strongly urge you to study and examine the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Maybe we are talking about two different entities after all.
    And I can’t accept the part you talk about Muslims practicing their religion and expressing their opinion. Just take a look at this:
    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/02/surveilling-uk-muslims-cradle-grave-201422575943406757.html
    http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/10/30/nypd-muslim-surveillancediscrimination.html
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/muslim-surveillance-unit-disbanded-nypd

  42. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    July 31, 2014 at 11:05 am

    The fundamental issue is that the state or the individual or a combination thereof is seeking to adjudicate the piteousness of an Individual Muslim or how “Good” he is.

    This problematic only leads to creating larger and larger groups of people that are labeled as “bad” Muslims or not Muslims at all.

    You can see this in Pakistan, whereby in 1974 they declared that Ahmadis are not Muslims.

    So they carried out their program of “enforced piety” and “Good Muslim” and created a minority who is now an alien presence in the Body Politic of Pakistan.

    What is the point?

    Is this the point – to give license to murder:

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/mob-kills-three-members-of-ahmadiyya-religious-community-in-pakistan-1406559233

    And the same people who consider Ahmadis to be non-Muslims probably they also think Shia re not Muslims.

    How can you reject that contention?

    Well, I think you cannot – as long as you yourself think that you can determine what is in the hearts of men and women and try to decide who is or is not a good Muslim.

    In a discussion on Muslim inheritance law, I was informed that there were stipulations regarding cases when the inheritor is both male and female, or neither male nor female or partially so.

    Perhaps the same thing can be applied to the syncretic sects of Islam; declaring, for example, that Ahmadis are 90% Muslim, Alawites are 50% Muslim, Sikhs are 75% Muslim etc.

    So at least trying to bring people together and extend to them a place under the umbrella of Islam.

    Rather than creating more insecurity, more violence, and more hatred….

    I think the links that you have mentioned are irrelevant to the point that I raised about Muslims being more secure in Axis Powers countries than in any Muslim state you care to mention.

    US, Spain, and UK certainly experienced domestic terrorism from Sunni Muslims that were their citizens.

    The state has the right to take measure to protect civil order; whether these specific measures were useful or justified is a separate question.

    But do not let these types of news divert your attention from the fact that there is no Muslim state in which a Muslim is safe in his person, in his property, and in his namus – none since the assassination of Imam Ali.

  43. Amir says:

    fyi says:
    July 31, 2014 at 11:59 am
    If you could just accept that what Mayor of Tehran had pushed for could have been popular with women working at Tehran municipality, we wouldn’t be here; the again, this is the nature of dialogue. Sometimes you wind up far from where you started.
    I reject your argument about good Muslim/bad Muslim because in Iran Sharia and Law are intertwined and the necessities of governing a complex societies comprising people of different ethnicity and religion shape the policies of the state. Thirty five years after the Islamic Revolution still Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians are leaving in Iran and they don’t feel estranged (a colleague was a Jewish lady, I had a Zoroastrian landlord and a Dervish landlady). I am myself not a particularly pious person, yet I entered the most prestigious academic center in Iran, all faculty (pious, secular, anti-establishment, basiji, war veteran, etc) who got to know me were on good terms with me and people on the street didn’t judge me by my religious zeal. I repeat what I’ve been hearing from the governments (past and present) that all Iranians who accept the constitution (Velayet-e-faqih included) are entitled to everything written in it. For me, that is democracy.
    And the links I included were relevant, in my opinion, because you had made a very general argument, and now you have modified it a bit. Terrorism charges are very arbitrary in the UK and US and are being abused by the authorities.

  44. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    July 31, 2014 at 12:26 pm

    It is fine that you reject my argument; but at least you have heard it.

    Perhaps someday Tehran University students will be able to walk around in a similar way as the students in Istanbul University – without fear of the security organs of the state.

    But please also note that you have no answer for Pakistan – that every day there Christians, Shia, Ahmadis are murdered under the claim of Islamic Purity.

    Tell me please what is wrong with Boko Haram from a religious point of view?

  45. James Canning says:

    Empty,

    Curious thing, that you think FYI and I are in the same “league”. Most of the comments we direct to each other mark our disagreements.

  46. James Canning says:

    Bussed-In Basiji,

    The US had ample weaponry to destroy the entire planet many times over, BEFORE

  47. James Canning says:

    Bussed-In Basiji,

    (c’d) BEFORE the huge increase in oil prices brought on by the 1973 Arab-Israel war.
    No need to “recycle” the fantastic sums spent on imported oil from the Gulf, to achieve such weaponry.

    But, there is no doubt that selling weapons to Gulf countries has helped the US alleviate some of the damage caused by the huge increase in oil prices.

  48. James Canning says:

    Bussed-In Basiji,

    The US blundered badly by not forcing Israel out of the Sinai, to avoid the 1973 war.

  49. James Canning says:

    Sineva,

    My hunch is that Obama was willing from day one to accept Iranian enrichment of uranium to fuel Iranian nuclear power plants.

  50. James Canning says:

    Aletho,

    The US built its most powerful nukes when oil prices were low and there was no need to “recycle” petrodollars.

  51. BiBiJon says:

    fyi,

    There’s a public dress code, and public rules of association, which conform to Islamic norms, including observant Istanbul university students. In Iran, curtsey of annual elections, a clear majority vote for the legislators who pass such laws.

    The problem with you is that you regard that majority as bricklayers, muleteers etc. In your twisted mind, not only there’s something subhuman about bricklayers, but that you get to decide who is and isn’t a bricklayer, and then project your your crap as something others do. No one, as Amir attests, is subject to a test of how pious they are. Such a test would indeed be unIslamic, and it only resides in the putrid mix of self-appointed chief morons who get to decide who is and isn’t a bricklayer, and by their rancid sociopathic mental defect get to equate Iran’s state of law and order to Boko Haram.

    Don’t miss your medication again because your chronic sense of inferiority finds disgusting expressions on this comment thread.

  52. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    July 31, 2014 at 1:22 pm

    I am sure that a Shia Muslim being raped and murdered by a Sunni Muslim in Pakistan will take great comfort in your words.

  53. BiBiJon says:

    Fyi

    ?

  54. Empty says:

    James Canning,

    RE: “Curious thing, that you think FYI and I are in the same “league”. Most of the comments we direct to each other mark our disagreements.”

    Yes. It’s quite curious how two mirrors opposing one another could create a repeating image stuck in an infinite vortex.

  55. James Canning says:

    Sunni fanatics in Mosul apparently want to destroy the architectural heritage of the place.

  56. James Canning says:

    Empty,

    I think you do not like being challenged on the facts.

  57. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Mashallah…it’s amazing the amount of shit you talk.

    “Perhaps someday Tehran University students will be able to walk around in a similar way as the students in Istanbul University – without fear of the security organs of the state.”

    As far as I can tell Istanbul University students- secular and religious- regularly get their brains smashed in by the Turkish police.

    You do know that, right?

    Also the fact that you haven’t visited Tehran University campus in a very long time doesn’t really help your case.

    You know that, right?

    And fyi, what is wrong with Boko, Wahhabis and other assorted red herrings you bring up is that they go against the LETTER of the Quran, even if doing it in the name of Islam.

    You see that gives us a real, practical, actual “standard” to judge/evaluate/guesstimate/suggest/ponder who is a “real” Muslim and who isn’t.

    Your problem is with the very concept of the “letter of revelation”.

    The only explanation left after all these years on this site that you cannot understand this is your blind cargo cult adherence to a religion- yes RELIGION- that you have created for yourself.

    God, Prophet, Imam and adherent- all in one person- nobody to cramp your “individualist” space. Mashallah! Rahat karde khodeto!

    I’m afraid you will only understand when a red-hot poker is being stuck up your ass in the afterlife.

    Maybe I will be there with you also receiving one or maybe I will not.

    In the meantime, I will try to adhere to the LETTER of the Quran as best as I can as the standard which determines whether I’m a “good” Muslim or not.

    Get it? No? Khak tu saret!

    Even if you disagree, please reflect for just a moment on the fact that so many different people are telling you that you’re talking out of your ass.

  58. Jay says:

    I am intrigued by the multiway discussion among several individuals and I would like to get some clarifications by the way of a couple of questions.

    First, I am certain that most are familiar with the following reported facts. Central and South American countries often top the list in terms of murder and violence rate. In so far as violence to women is concerned, the American continent seem to be in the leadership position. I think it is self evident that the Americas are not dominated by Islam and Muslim heritage.

    On the face of it, it appears that a non-muslims have the lead in so far as violence goes – at least that is what empirical evidence suggests.

    So here is a couple of questions:

    Is violence against dignity of others a predominantly muslim problem?

    If yes, please explain the disparity with the empirical evidence. If no, then why link such acts of senseless violence with Islam – or any religion for that matter?

  59. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    BibiJon,

    “and it only resides in the putrid mix of self-appointed chief morons who get to decide who is and isn’t a bricklayer, and by their rancid sociopathic mental defect get to equate Iran’s state of law and order to Boko Haram.”

    Thank you.

    The fact that the best of this nation selflessly sacrificed themselves so that we have democracy and the rule of law today, can never be understood by those who “had better things to do” at that time.

    Some sacrifice and reach the peak of being a human, honored by God.

    Others spend a lifetime fleeing from there own “bricklayer” selves, “honored” by a lifetime of apeing westerners.

  60. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Jay-jan,

    When you start out with a biased agenda, who cares about the empirical facts!

  61. Castellio says:

    I am hoping the Leveretts might deal with this in the near future:

    http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2014/07/31/u-s-anti-iran-lobby-group-has-mossad-ties/

    In brief, Silverstein claims that the Mossad works with the protection of the US Department of Justice to “enforce” sanctions against Iran.

  62. Rehmat says:

    Catellio – All American Jewish and Christian groups lobbying for Israel need Mossad to feed them Israeli Hasbara lies about the Muslim world.

    The publisher-editor of Atlanta Jewish Times, Andrew B. Alder, in his January 13, 2012 Op-Ed, entitled What would you do? – called for assassination of US President Barack Obama by Israeli Mossad – as one of three options to stop Islamic Republic achieving nuclear capability. Andrew Alder’s three options, were; “Strike Hizbullah and Hamas, strike Iran or “order a hit” on Barack Obama. Either way, problem solved!”

    “Three, give the go-ahead for US-based Mossad agents to take out a president deemed unfriendly to Israel in order for the current vice president to take his place, and forcefully dictate that the United States’ policy includes its helping the Jewish state obliterate its enemies,” wrote Adler.

    http://rehmat1.com/2012/01/21/jewish-editor-mossad-should-assassinate-obama/

  63. Rehmat says:

    While the Israeli poodle governments in Washington and London are financially, militarily and morally supporting the Zionist entity’s ethnic-cleansing of Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank, several Latin American nations are breaking-up diplomatic relations or recalling their ambassadors from Tel Aviv in protest.

    Bolivian president Evo Morales has harshly condemned Jewish army’s killing of Gaza civilians and children – calling Israel a “terrorist state” while announcing the break-up of diplomatic relations with Tel Aviv.

    “Israel doesn’t guarantees the principle of respect for live, and basic right to live in harmony and peace in the international community,” said Morales.

    Zionist foreign minister Lieberman criticized Latin American nations decision, claiming their actions would encourage Hamas to kill more Israeli Jews.

    Brazil, Chile, El Salvador, Peru and Ecuador have all recalled their ambassadors from Tel Aviv, while Argentina, Venezuela, Uruguay and Paraguay have suspended the Free Trade talks with the Zionist regime.

    President Dilma Rouseff of Brazil said as friend of Israel, I feel ashamed of its actions.

    Interestingly, while Israelis have claimed that Hamas is negotiating with North Korea to buy more arms to cover its losses in the Gaza War – Washington has announced it will cover Israeli losses of ammunition including 120 mm mortar rounds and 40 mm ammunition for grenade launchers.

    It seems, Chavez and Ahmadinejad may have left the world stage but their anti-imperialism movement is bearing fruits now.

    And finally a note from British veteran journalist and author, Alan Hart: “When those who defend Israel’s actions with the statement that “We withdrew from Gaza years ago and look what happened”, the best response is, I think, something like the following. “Cut the bullshit. The siege of the Gaza Strip is occupation by remote control.”

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/08/01/latin-america-cuts-ties-with-terrorist-state-of-israel/

  64. Jay says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    July 31, 2014 at 7:21 pm

    One possible explanation is biased agenda, but there are other possibilities. I’d rather think that the interlocutors here are intelligent and can spot the obvious bias.

    It seems to me that none of us mortals, as individuals or as a collective, have cornered the market on any vice or virtue. Some of us do somethings better than others, but not everything. We all live with our fragility as humans and accept a sense of spirituality in our own way. We are ultimately responsible for our actions, regardless of whatever spiritual guidance we receive.

    Perhaps it is easier to assign the blame for shortcomings to an external “thing”.

  65. Castellio says:

    Jay:

    I like Bussed in Basiji’s uncompromised position.

    The Iranians I supported all got wiped out by the ones he supported, or they betrayed their ideals and turned into terrorists, or grew soft as armchair philosophers waxing poetic about the ideals of the countries that accepted them as exiles. Few, but some, maintained their intellectual vigour and purpose: and most of those stayed in Iran. (True, I would like to hear from them more often, but they do not contribute here… )

    Nonetheless, let’s admit it, the Islamic Republic has made important strides forward in so many areas, not least the moral underpinning of the sovereignty of states, and the advancement of the ‘common’ (so called) people.

    Now’s not the time for the Iranians to put up the hammock and drink beer in the sun, musing over how to be nice. They are working to defend and sustain some remarkable achievements, all of which came at a very heavy price, and all of which would be torn from then in a minute by their sworn enemies, should the Iranians lose perspective.

    We should listen carefully to what the ones who stayed and fought have to say.

  66. Amir says:

    fyi says:
    July 31, 2014 at 12:33 pm

    I’m just going to share my experience on Tehran University Campus during 2005-2013 and leave your question about Islam and Pakistan to the expert.
    When we entered the university, there were pumped-up speculations that Mr. Ahmadinejad is going to draw a wall in the middle of classes and political orientation for students (whatever that means) is going to be determined by authorities (now I see students were just pawns and foot soldiers in others’ schemes), etcetera. Well, I never EVER witnessed any such things; I saw communist students (!) holding a meeting in front of the faculty of engineering, waving a red flag (!!); I could see it from the terrace connecting faculties of Medicine and Pharmacy (where there are 30-40 stairs). I was aware of such gatherings inside Sharif and Amir Kabir Universities, but I wasn’t really into politics, so I didn’t follow it. Then there were reformists, who held regular meeting featuring MohammadReza Khatami and Shakouri Raad and sometimes Tajzadeh and Mohammad Khatami (even Moein), with Anjoman-e-Eslami; again, the list is longer, they went to Mashhad annually for the election of their central committee, etcetera, but I wasn’t interested so I barely paid any attention. In the meantime everyone was moaning that their political activities were restricted (made me wonder if students are supposed to be political figures, but society expects them to further science and technology by mistake). And I reassure you, there were many (I mean MANY) seculars and liberals among Anjoman-e-Eslami members.
    Now we arrive at the aftermath of 2009 presidential election. By then I had to go the university once or twice a week (doing my rotations in the affiliated hospitals) but I could say first of all, despite the order (a court order?) that Anjoman-e-Eslami be shut, it never ceased its activity, even though sometimes its bulletin board featured provocative articles. But that’s not my point; at the height of the tensions, two “incidents” were really sobering for me (I didn’t witness any of them). The first one occurred roughly a month after the 2009 election, where two of my classmates left the ward (in the hospital) to attend a protest inside Tehran University campus, at 10 am. Later that day I was informed that one of them and another classmate have been arrested and detained. Three days later the first one and four days later the second classmate were released. As my classmates related later, at 10:30 they were gathered around western gate of the university, where anti-riot forces were standing outside the university; when the two walked out through the gates one of them was arrested (the other returned inside) and a third classmate confronted the police and was arrested subsequently. They later appeared before a judge and explained that they were medical students and were trying to get to Emam hospital (which is oddly enough situated to the east of Tehran University, and the gates on that side were open and no incidents had happened that day there), nonetheless, the judge was kind enough and they were released (bear in mind that one had confronted the police). This is getting lengthy and I’ll wrap it up. Our friends were fed Morgh-o-Polo and cold Fanta; their belongings were returned to them; returned to their classes as if nothing had happened. You might expect eventually something must have happened to them, right? I mean other democracies do not take these things lightly, see link:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/05/occupy-wall-street-cecily-mcmillan-guilty-assaulting-police-officer
    It suffices to say one is a resident, in a real fancy specialty. The other one, well he is battling addiction.
    I could just say if “koo**shun nemikharid”, they wouldn’t have been detained.
    The other one was related by a dear friend of mine, who has a master in mathematics from Tehran University and a master in electronics from Sharif University; during the upheavals of 2009, one day he was walking in 16 Azar St. and he noticed a number of students inside the university hugging the fence and one of them shouting really, really horrible slurs about the leader; my friend saw someone who looked like he could be basiji going through something that words cannot describe it as he was hearing all this; bursting into tears and hitting himself in the face and chest and as if he was about to pass out. The importance of this tale was that a “sandis khor” might come to rallies, even beat someone, etc; but he would never do what that basiji was doing. Also, in the face of these excesses, not a single security force entered the university campus (because it is against the law), and I’d say that basiji was showing restraint, at the very least.
    I just want to add that I strongly urge you to thoroughly read these two speeches by the leader (after meetings with students, and about the universities), one in 2009 and one a few weeks ago. I am convinced that many years from now, this leader would be considered among the most farsighted and original figures of political Islam.
    See links: http://farsi.khamenei.ir/speech-content?id=7908
    http://farsi.khamenei.ir/speech-content?id=27046

  67. Empty says:

    The myth of “iron dome” protecting Israel (courtesy of American tax payers)…

    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/31/iron_dome_or_iron_sieve_evidence

    You’ve got to love this portion of it:

    AMY GOODMAN: So what is the so-called—this dome, the Iron Dome, doing?

    THEODORE POSTOL: Well, we know—we have videos of the contrails—by contrails, I mean the smoke trails left by the Iron Dome rocket motor—that indicate the geometry of the engagement between the Iron Dome interceptors and the incoming artillery rockets. So, for example, if you see a contrail that ends with an explosion of an Iron Dome, and the contrail is traveling parallel to the earth, this means that the Iron Dome attempted to engage an artillery rocket from what you call a side-on geometry, because the artillery rocket is falling in a highly vertical trajectory. In a side-on geometry, the probability of destroying the artillery rocket warhead is essentially zero, for all practical purposes. We also see Iron Domes chasing artillery rockets from behind. The probability of destroying an artillery rocket warhead in that geometry is also zero. We occasionally, very occasionally, see an Iron Dome intercept arising in a near-vertical trajectory. That is the only engagement geometry where the Iron Dome has a non-zero chance of destroying the rocket—the artillery rocket warhead.

    AMY GOODMAN: So how often have these rockets been intercepted?

    THEODORE POSTOL: Well, we don’t know exactly, but my guess is maybe 5 percent of the time. It may not even be that good.

    AMY GOODMAN: Ninety-five percent of the time, they miss?

    THEODORE POSTOL: It looks that way, yes.

    AMY GOODMAN: I mean, if you’re watching television in the United States, as we just played those clips, it’s universally accepted that it is the reason for the low casualty rate for Israelis.

    THEODORE POSTOL: Well, let me remind you that in the Gulf War of 1991, the interceptor rate of the Patriot missile defense over Israel and Saudi Arabia was reported as 96 percent, even higher. And we analyzed the information we obtained from television videos, and when we were finished, the general view among all—all—informed technical people was that the intercept rate of Patriot was probably zero. So, people look at these explosions in the sky, they associate this light show with successful intercepts, and what they are seeing are the explosion of the Iron Dome warheads.

    AMY GOODMAN: U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel sent a letter to Congress requesting $225 million more in U.S. funding—

    THEODORE POSTOL: Yes.

    AMY GOODMAN: —to accelerate production of the Dome missile defense components. What is the company that benefits from this, or the military contractors that are getting this money?

    THEODORE POSTOL: Well, the company that will benefit—the American company that will benefit most—there will be companies in Israel that also benefit—is the Raytheon Corporation, which is out here in Massachusetts.

    AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s where the money goes.

    THEODORE POSTOL: Well, a large part of it will go. I haven’t been able to find any information on how much will be paid to Raytheon for each interceptor that’s built.

    AMY GOODMAN: Do you think the money is well spent, Professor Postol?

    THEODORE POSTOL: I would not spend money on an interceptor that has a near-zero chance of intercepting an artillery rocket. The interceptor probably costs well in excess of $100,000 per interceptor, and it’s maybe achieving a 5 percent rate—maybe, could be lower—against rockets that maybe cost $1,000 each or $500 each. So the cost-exchange ratio is fine, if you’re Israeli and the dollars on not coming out of your pocket. But in the case of an American system, I would certainly not support such a system.

  68. Jay says:

    Castellio says:
    August 1, 2014 at 12:09 am

    I do not have any general disagreements with what you have written. The point I was trying to get across was tangentially supportive of Basij’s comment.

    The folks who stayed in Iran and contributed to the progress that has taken place so far took direct responsibility for their lives and actions. Like any other enterprise, hindsight analysis could suggest that those actions may not have lead to optimal consequences. That is always the case.

    I was making the point that blaming these suboptimal outcomes on this or that spiritual or religious practice is tantamount to “taking the easy way out”. My earlier discussion and statement regarding empirical evidence was to demonstrate lack of empirical evidence for correlations being suggested by others.

  69. Fiorangela says:

    Empty says:
    August 1, 2014 at 7:27 am

    Nevertheless, high anxiety among Israel advocates over US Senate’s failure to immediately vote to spend another $250 m on Iron dome. The failure is called a “stab in the back,” among other things — http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/US-Senate-blocks-Iron-Dome-funding-to-Israel-369699#FFSHARE-close-You%20shared%20this%20page%20on%20your%20%3Ca%20href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Ffriendfeed.com%2Fchasmark%2F3f6e7beb%2Fus%2dsenate%2dblocks%2diron%2ddome%2dfunding%2dto%2disrael%22%3EFriendFeed%3C%2Fa%3E

  70. kooshy says:

    Someone who knew and had seen the Iron Dome in action previously, told me that in Israel (IDF) they say is much cheaper and more effective to moon the Palestinians than keeping on the ID batteries.

  71. Sakineh Bagoom says:

    James Canning says: July 31, 2014 at 2:34 pm — Empty, I think you do not like being challenged on the facts.

    Empty,

    Please take my advice and run. Run for the cover, as James is going to lob ‘facts’ your way.
    Duck and cover would also be acceptable, as thsee ‘facts’ might be nuclear (20%)

  72. Karl.. says:

    Seeing what west do when israel masscare palestinians should send a signal to Iran regarding their nuclear and missile program.

  73. Neil M says:

    Sincere thanks, Leveretts.
    In a www dominated by the deluded frothings of hegemonic daydreamers and wishful thinkers, the sober analyses to be found here on a regular basis just get better and better.

  74. Rehmat says:

    On July 29, in an interview with UK Channel 4, former Israeli ambassador to Washington, Michael Oren, called Gaza-ruling Islamic resistance: “a vicious, medieval, racist, genocidal organization”. One has to excuse Oren for his rubbish Talmudic belief.

    The truth of the matter is Hamas has always successfully resisted world’s fourth most powerful and brutal army based on it moral superiority. While Washington and most of European capitals have designated Hamas as a “terrorist organization”, it has won the hearts of the public around the world by showing their condemnation of the Zionist entity through mass protests in almost every 193 world nation-states including the Zionist-occupied western nations.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/08/01/hamas-the-moral-terrorist-group/

  75. James Canning says:

    Sakineh,

    Once again you imply Iran did not blunder when it announced its intention to treble production of 20%U. You simply are mistaken.

  76. nico says:

    mmmh, nice trading.
    Surely related to “God given and Intrinsic rights”.
    One may also name it satanic or desacrailized behaviours related to the enlightments consumer market.

    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-01/mother-of-thai-baby-abandoned-by-surrogate-parents-struggles-to/5642478

    “In December last year, Ms Chanbua gave birth to the twins after agreeing to be a surrogate with a promised payment of about $16,000.

    “Because of the poverty and debts and the money that was offered was a lot for me. In my mind, with that money we can educate our children and repay our debt,” she said.

    But things went wrong – it was established that one of the babies had Down Syndrome.

    The twins were born in December last year and the couple returned to Australia with the healthy girl, leaving behind the boy who has been named Gammy by his surrogate family.”

  77. BiBiJon says:

    James Canning says to Sakineh:
    August 1, 2014 at 12:51 pm

    “Once again you imply Iran did not blunder when it announced its intention to treble production of 20%U. You simply are mistaken.”

    I have an opposite take. The announcement of enriching to 20%, and later announcement to increase the capacity of doing that was crucial to getting the Western powers to negotiate seriously. Up until that point, Iran’s technological abilities were in doubt, and all manner of offers of shipping out enriched uranium were being rejected by the west out of hand.

    Iran, has thus managed to get the West to accede to Iran’s NPT rights, quit threatening to bomb, and generally mind their manners. That was not the case before answering Western economic/political pressure with an exponential expansion of Iran’s nuclear capacities.

    Blunder? I really don’t think so.

  78. kooshy says:

    Our AH SOS first priority

    “(Reuters) – U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, fearing an escalation of violence in Gaza, called on Turkey and Qatar on Friday to use their influence to secure the release of a kidnapped Israeli soldier whose abduction led to the breakdown of a short-lived ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.”

    Stupid Reuters is calling the captured Israeli POW, “Kidnaped” as far as the real international community is concerned Reuter’s editors can go eat shit and die. This a war as has been announced multiple times by Israeli government, and if you get captured in war you are a POW.

  79. fyi says:

    System and Method for Search-Oriented Personalized Profile Generation and Use

    Thank you for sharing my observations.

    I never understood why Mr. Ahmadinejad was so negatively received by so many non-religious students – he certainly was trying to make Iran a normal country and dissent was something that he enjoyed seeing – it marked the Islamic Republic from the late Shah.

    I am pleased to learn that tolerance for opposing viewpoint is increasing.

    Now if we could only restore the electoral law to what it was before the Second Majlis got to it….

  80. BiBiJon says:

    Porting over to the nuclear negotiations …
    ======================================

    Gareth, who originally was very skeptical that a deal could/would be struck, now says:

    ” in the last week before the decision on both sides to have the extension, where they were saying, okay, now we can see how we’re going to get to an agreement. And that is really what happened during the meetings or after the meetings between Foreign Minister Zarif of Iran and the Secretary of State, John Kerry, in Vienna. As a result of those meetings, I think it was clear that the Obama administration realized that the Iranians were willing to reach an agreement that the United States could live with. And that’s why they chose to agree to an extension.”

    And going forward, he thinks:

    “first of all I think what we’re going to be seeing on both sides is sort of radio silence as these negotiations go forward. I think the posturing now can cease because both sides know that they are headed towards an agreement which is acceptable to the two sides. And I think now it’s not necessary for them to take positions that would be regarded by the other side as extreme. So I think that will be a clue that they are indeed seriously negotiating on a set of arrangements which will accomplish the minimum requirements, the minimum interests for both sides.”

    Watch it at http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12137&updaterx=2014-07-30+11%3A26%3A15

  81. fyi says:

    Jay says:

    July 31, 2014 at 6:55 pm

    Do not delude yourself.

    If you utter a statement such as this: “Let us discuss if it makes sense of set the hours of Ramadan to those of Mecca…” will get you killed in Pakistan and a number of other Muslim states.

    It can be discussed without fear of death among Muslims residing in North America and Europe.

  82. Ataune says:

    @fyi

    So basically, you are saying:

    – The “Axis Powers” are waging an existential war against the “Shias”, so we are in a polarized political context regionally;

    – Iran needs to be able to defend herself by any means and should arm herself with the ultimate weapon even though doing so will certainly bring the wrath from the US – which by the way has proclaimed this to be her absolute redline;

    – Iran needs to open-up the political scene to a degree that we were witnessing before 1980, right at the onset of the war. With, I remind you, political factions as disparate as MKO, Toudeh, Liberals etc… each with completely different perspective for the kind of political regime to be in place.

    Correct ?

  83. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Castellio,

    “…and all of which would be torn from then in a minute by their sworn enemies, should the Iranians lose perspective.”

    This is the crux of the matter.

    The problem that our enemies have with us is more because our “realism” rather than our “religion”.

    Of course realism is what our religion teaches us.

    It kills them that a bunch of bricklaying, muleteers could actually beat them at war.

    As BibiJon noted, they can’t believe we constituted a republic and are successfully running a domestically and internationally powerful state.

    A bunch of bricklaying muleteers establishing a successful state, industrializing, advancing technologically AND beating us at war.

    No! Impossible!

    It wasn’t supposed to happen given the “laws of history” and the “uniqueness of western civilization”.

    But it is.

  84. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    August 1, 2014 at 2:54 pm

    You conflate illiteracy, abject poverty, and ‘clan’ culture/menatlity with religion. Fact is when folks have all the right ingredients, severe punishment will be meted out over anything, religious or otherwise, that is perceived to go outside of group think.

    I have seen people crossing a major street right in front of the Hilton hotel in Istanbul with wads of cash tucked under each arm. Do that in New York, and you won’t get to the other side of the street. You won’t see me pontificating about the relative safety in Istanbul, out of a sense of intellectual self respect.

  85. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Prof. Jay-jan,

    “I was making the point that blaming these suboptimal outcomes on this or that spiritual or religious practice is tantamount to “taking the easy way out”. My earlier discussion and statement regarding empirical evidence was to demonstrate lack of empirical evidence for correlations being suggested by others.”

    Your calls for empirical evidence are always appreciated.

    And well yes, thankfully most of us here are intelligent enough to realize biases.

    And even some of us from the beginning laid them out in the open and dispensed with myths of “objectivity”.

    As you are aware, the old classic brain-teaser problem is that the “biased” are the ones who usually don’t realize their “bias”.

    So when it is pointed out to them, two things can happen:

    If they are “rational” they “recalibrate” (I’m trying to say it nicely).

    If they are “irrational” they- like our friend- start talking out of their ass (damn, it’s really hard to say it nicely)!

  86. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    BibiJon,

    The sharia was revealed to get rid of shitty cultural practices and customs- eastern and western.

    This is what a very senior doctor of religious law told a group of visiting students last week:

    http://english.khamenei.ir//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1934&Itemid=4

    “There are certain wrong notions and traditions that are highly problematic. These wrong traditions are an obstacle in the way of promoting marriage among youth. Therefore, they should be practically broken. In my opinion, you – who are young, inquiring and enthusiastic and you who suggest breaking many habits and traditions – you should break the wrong traditions that exist on the issue of marriage. This is another issue that I deem necessary to stress.”

  87. kooshy says:

    Ataune says:
    August 1, 2014 at 3:54 pm

    Majority of expatriate Iranians think that’s the only way the IRI can be overthrown, when the government of Iran becomes weak internally by many militant opposition, and when has aggravated a strong externally unified international opposition. This group doesn’t think or care that as of consequence Iran gets disintegrated or leveled to dust for many, many years exactly like Syria or Iraq, they often don’t talk or wouldn’t want to talk, on how Iran can get there before getting crushed. I suspect this is the core of where majority of us has difference and problem with his (fyi) and his warm up’s supposed liberal views (really ultimate intention) and realistic national interest of Iran. Is just at this juncture that one should realize that recommended policy is as result of a well thought and calculated road map or is just a wishful trap. I never thought he is not clever or has not studied on what he recommends, on the contrary, I always thought he is trying to be too clever on what he and his warm ups recommend Iran should do. Much like the article Nasser linked yesterday if one puts together the three points the article was mentioning one would conclude that Iran has no choice but to make a nuclear device so why to bother lets bomb now, Nasser hopes he can be passed as a good and sound analysis.

  88. fyi says:

    Ataune says:

    August 1, 2014 at 3:54 pm

    I do not find any utility in unconstitutionally disenfranchising people.

    It is not a politically wise move, however tempting it might be – it just creates an army of dissidents that could be used by others for regime destabilization.

    The Second Majlis as well as later – Mr. Khamenei – bear direct responsibility for the political crisis of 2009 – in my opinion.

    Mr. Khatami tried to redress the issue but was quashed.

    In regards to nuclear weapons:

    a- Any strategic settlement between Iran and US must recognize that Iranian will have all the elements of a nuclear deterrent – in my opinion.

    b- The events of last August established that regime destruction in Iran remains the favored policy of the United States – in my opinion. Therefore, Iranians cannot – for the foreseeable future – expect any concessions on the nuclear front will correspond to increased security for them.

    c- When the effort to destroy Iran’s social fabric through hyperinflation failed – and when Iranians reached where they wanted to be in terms of their nuclear infrastructure – US and Iran could being a process of cease fire for a short while.

    On your first remark:

    When one wages a war that lasts and lasts, one eviscerates the usual clothing of cultures – and they are reduced to the bare minimum fundamental – called Belligerent Polarization.

    You see that in Palestine where a war between Jewish Europeans and (Muslim & Christian) Arabs was transformed, over 90 years – to a war of religions. In Egypt, for example, the word Israeli and Jew is used interchangeably.

    Americans have been waging a struggle against the Shia Fortress of Iran, and now that struggle includes all the Shia and all their allies – and the theatre of war is the old core areas of Muslim Civilization – a civilization that owes most of its highest exponents to Iran.

    Just what does it take to state that US is waging a war against the Country of Imam Hussein?

    If American planners are not aware of this dynamic, or were oblivious to it, then you have the wrong people among the planners.

    And just like in Palestine, or Pakistan-India, if the war had not continued, it would not have been turned into a civilizational struggle.

  89. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    August 1, 2014 at 4:06 pm

    Mere quibbles.

    Go to Pakistan and expect to be killed because you are Shia and Iranian.

    And no amount of appeal to anything except a bigger machine gun is going to save you.

  90. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    August 1, 2014 at 5:14 pm

    Complete garbage. No amount of appealing to KKK who’s about to lynch somebody doesn’t help either. What of it, genius?

  91. Karl.. says:

    Haha
    Captured israeli soldier is british citizen
    http://rt.com/news/line/2014-08-01/#67448

  92. BiBiJon says:

    fyi says:
    August 1, 2014 at 5:14 pm

    Is there a reason you are now bad-mouthing Pakistanis with as ridiculously broad a brush as possible?

  93. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    August 1, 2014 at 5:26 pm

    There is nothing within Islamic Tradition that would prevent 3 guys to go into a room and among themselves agree that they are the only true Muslims in the world – Khwarej were one such group and the Hojatiyeh were yet a more recent one.

    In both cases, they had to be destroyed….

    No convincing argument against them has been found to date – in my opinion.

    As for the KKK, Men are in the State of Fall – in US as much as in Pakistan.

  94. fyi says:

    BiBiJon says:

    August 1, 2014 at 5:37 pm

    They have nuclear weapons and they kill Shia there…

    What more do you want?

  95. James Canning says:

    BiBiJon,

    It was one thing for Iran to enrich to 20%, to enable production of fuel plates for TRR. It was quite another thing to announce an intention to treble such production.
    Why? Because in effect it said Iran was not telling the truth when it said it needed to commence enriching to 20 for sake of refueling the TRR.

    I think Iran’s ability to enrich to 20 was not seriously in doubt, nor Iran’s ability to manufacture fuel rods/plates. (Despite assertions to that effect.)

  96. kooshy says:

    “I think Iran’s ability to enrich to 20 was not seriously in doubt, nor Iran’s ability to manufacture fuel rods/plates. (Despite assertions to that effect.)”

    Gav good of you to tell us
    now I don’t recall you
    mentioned this “Think” of yours at the time, I wonder if you weren’t thinking of it at that time or the job requirements didn’t allow bringing it up?

    Anyway good to know that you are now free to say what you think.

  97. Jay says:

    fyi says:
    August 1, 2014 at 2:54 pm

    I hope to remain a practicing realist while striving for the ideal.

    Suppose that it is true that certain utterances in muslim states would get one killed. Given that there are utterances that gets you killed in non-muslim states – simply your association with your tribe, for example – does that not suggest that “the state of man” is more responsible for such actions as compared to “the man’s” state of religiosity?

    Prior to a person’s thought being translated into action the thought journey’s through many aspects of one’s state: their heritage, background, upbringing, environment, state of being, religion, …. There are numerous common roots that makes a “Pakistani” a Pakistani.

    What thought process enabled you to single out religion as the single causal factor?

  98. fyi says:

    Jay says:

    August 1, 2014 at 6:19 pm

    I cannot think of an utterance in Denmark, Spain, Italy, UK, France, and the United States that would get one killed – or in Sweden or in Switzerland.

    You really have no idea…

  99. kooshy says:

    fyi says:
    August 1, 2014 at 8:28 pm

    “I cannot think of an utterance in Denmark, Spain, Italy, UK, France, and the United States that would get one”

    Try skin color

  100. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Like I said, you’re a weasel who didn’t answer Ataune’s very simple question directly instead hiding behind verbosity as usual.

    I will take your weasel answer as a yes:

    1. Religious war against Shia exists- good to see you agree with this bricklayer muleteer cause that’s an idea you stole from me when I mentioned it on the other site and you actually argued with me about.

    Let’s be clear who mentioned it first and who stole it and made it his bread and butter. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve seen one original thought by you in all these years. You’re a fake that spends his life posting other peoples ideas online. After a lifetime of being a fake, self-hating, pompous a-hole, that’s what’s left of your life in retirement.

    Congratulations.

    2. Iran should acquire nuclear weapons even though that is precisely the matter others are falsely accusing it of doing and even though you haven’t been close to anything resembling war and war decision making, well, let’s see- EVER! Did I get that right?

    3. Let’s open the political space to the extent that Iran will turn into Ukraine, Georgia, Kirgizstan, Syria, Iraq etc. and very likely dissolve as unitary state.

    For the record you weasel, there is nothing “unconstitutional” about requiring political parties to adhere to the constitution if they want to participate in the political process- including the articles of the constitution related to velayate faqih, official state religion, unity of the state and republicanism.

    You say it as though it is an established “fact” that the law is “against” the constitution- which is of course bullshit- it is your bullshit interpretation of the law and history that it is- not a “fact”.

    When the liberals and communists and separatists “pledge allegiance to the constitution” (gee, where have I heard that before?) they are welcome to participate in the political process. Otherwise they can fuck off. Was I clear enough for your weaselness?

    You see 1 and 2 are defensible but 3 turns you into a traitor whose “head has to be chopped off” if possible.

    It is the anniversary of Mersad. Salawat!

    More on “chopping heads off” later…

    “There is nothing within Islamic Tradition that would prevent 3 guys to go into a room and among themselves agree that they are the only true Muslims in the world – Khwarej were one such group and the Hojatiyeh were yet a more recent one.”

    I have told you over the years that the standard is the letter of the Quran.

    You’re refusal to acknowledge this matter that is the view of the vast majority of Islamic scholars throughout history, your false equation of the acts of some Muslims in history with “Islam” and your use of bullshit terms like “Islamic Tradition” is evidence of your intellectually dishonesty, unstable mental status and emotional complexes, not some brilliant insight into history and the state of man.

    Got that?

    Please specifically define “Islamic Tradition”. Let me help you, you see keeping it a fluff term that you pulled out of your ass, really helps in designating whatever evil act happened in history by anyone close to Islam to “Islam” itself.

    I mean that’s the whole purpose of the exercise, right weasel?

    My guess is you will not want to further define it as it would come into conflict with your “initial bias”.

    Compare that to a very nice and straight forward standard like “the letter of Quran” for analyzing behavior of Muslims (It’s like talking to a pile of bricks…pun)

    Also the fact that some animal in Norway- please substitute any other of the “superior” nations and societies you mentioned, some of which I have lived in- can kill dozens of people and as a consequence receive 20 years of prison or some other animal in Austria can lock up his daughter in the basement, rape her and produce children with her FOR DECADES without the mother noticing and the neighbors even blinking an eye- is a sign of the barbarity of Europeans and western civilization. I think for your own sake I will spare you examples from your real homeland the good ol’ U S of A.

    Haqe-te that you live with them, love them and will be raised with them.

    I prefer bricklaying, muleteering, all-up-in-your-business, amr be maruf nahy az munkar Iranians as companions. Khak tu sarat!

    You can’t and can’t and can’t deal with the “essential paradox of western civilization”- violence internally directed towards the weak, violence externally directed towards other societies- like a devoted member of a cargo cult.

    Maybe it’s really good that in a society their are some things that are so repugnant that if you even utter them you risk having your head chopped off- not only by the state but by good, decent upright fellow citizens and neighbors.

    It’s called “community” and “civilization”- something that contrary to your claims- you have only read about in books but have no practical knowledge of.

  101. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Jay,

    Your discussion with fyi addresses an interesting research topic:

    “The Efficacy of Conducting Rational Argumentation with Pompous Narcissist A-holes”.

    Hey, let’s right a paper on it…

  102. Empty says:

    RE: I cannot think of an utterance in Denmark, Spain, Italy, UK, France, and the United States that would get one killed – or in Sweden or in Switzerland.

    Native Americans, Blacks, Muslims, and Chicanos in the US; Gypsies, Muslims, Eastern European immigrants, researchers and historians of Holocaust, Blacks and Africans in Europe; Muslims, Africans, and Algerians in France; Roma, Sinti, and Muslims in Italy; immigrants and Muslims in Denmark; African and Latin Americans in Spain; and many MANY more groups insist that you think a bit harder and make your thinking more informed.

  103. Persian Gulf says:

    fyi

    I think we had this discussion here before. Without Sharia there is no real basis to make distinction between right and wrong. It it however true that outright conformance to Sharia does not necessarily make one a sane person.

    Sticking to Orf firmly can be dangerous in my view. It was Orf before Sharia that easily accepted burying one’s girl right after birth out of shame. and many more.

    Orf to me is like Erfan. you only need to adhere to them for a short while to be completely fed up with. the wall is think for both.

  104. Persian Gulf says:

    It is however true that outright…

    ..wall is thin…

  105. ataune says:

    @fyi

    First, the kind of “tolerance” you are attributing in an essential way to the liberal political order, to which you seem to adhere, is more of a fallacy. Like BiB is saying, in a harsher utterance though, the liberal order is not tolerant towards anything outside her realm of existence neither anything inside which puts her framework in risk. Similar, in her outward intolerant actions, I will add, to all other political orders born from Enlightenment (fascism, communism, bonapartism, etc…)

    Then, since you granted an acknowledgment to my question, and others added their comments, I will also briefly mention my opinion on the 3 topics I poked you about, starting with the last one,

    1- I see the reality of the political order in Iran as having both the legitimacy and the necessary minimum to allow reforms, if needed. Thus, coming from someone assessing the regional political context as extremely polarized, I find it somehow disturbing to hope for the return of parties which were espousing an overthrow of the order in place, specially after almost all those forces are/were openly sitting with adversaries, displaying how far they are/were ready to go to achieve their aims. It is one thing to say that in a system claiming freedom differences of opinion should be tolerated, it’s another to encourage opening up towards political foes having their only objectives as regime change.

    2- I do believe that the discussion on the strategic posture of the Iranian armed force should be mostly kept at low radar level. I also feel that the ones that successfully defended Iran against aggressions with their unselfish acts, in one of the toughest and most brutal war conditions in the recent history, are those who deserve, and have the knowledge, to the decisive opinions on these matters.

    3- Unlike BiB, I do conjecture that based on facts, the US policy towards Iran is not a religious war waged by a so-called Axis Power against Shias, but a drive for the control. Iran’s soft power is based on her independence and her religious attributes. The hegemon would have surely preferred to achieve her goal by avoiding any hard war, by sowing discord among Muslim and by tiring the opponent with small but frequent jabs. Therefore, the sectarian ploy with the aim of politically triangularizing Iran. “Radical Islamists” on one side (Wahabis / Taliban / Salafis), “moderate ones” on the other (AKP / Qatar etc…) squeezing the political space out of Iran’s hand and pushing her to blunders and mistakes. This strategy having come to a failure, and other more important issues having popped-up, it’s now time for accommodation. This course, almost certainly, has clearly been understood by Iran in its entirety and since her inception.

    In this context, I think that the course of action decided so far by the leadership of the country has proved to be the wisest.

  106. Jay says:

    fyi says:
    August 1, 2014 at 8:28 pm

    Kooshy’s example of skin color is relevant.

    Suppose we leave the debate about skin color aside, and further suppose that your examples demonstrate that there are non-muslim countries in which words, certain words within the confines of the given culture, do not get you killed (to the extent you are aware of). Moreover, suppose that there are words in Pakistan, a muslim country, do get you killed.

    In your form of argument, how do these two stipulated facts yield your stated result regarding muslims? It seems to me that the logic would require the invocation of one of the 24 invalid methods of proof!

    You have presented examples that are confounded by numerous factors. One of these factors appear to be the main point of your argument. Yet, it seems that one should a priori ignore the interaction of these many confounding factors in order to yield the desired results.

    Perhaps I, as you put it, “really have no idea…” What is it that I have no idea about?

  107. Amir says:

    fyi says:
    August 1, 2014 at 2:44 pm

    Dear sir,
    I wan’t sure if your post was in response to my post, but to be clear, I was trying to say that my observations contradicted your assumptions.

    And I’d like to add something in response to your other posts about “I do not find any utility in unconstitutionally disenfranchising people.It is not a politically wise move, however tempting it might be – it just creates an army of dissidents that could be used by others for regime destabilization. The Second Majlis as well as later – Mr. Khamenei – bear direct responsibility for the political crisis of 2009 – in my opinion.”
    Those “dissidents” were not marginalized “unconstitutionally”; on the contrary, they didn’t really accept that constitution and from 1378 student protests they had been arguing for changing the constitution. I’m not an expert in the humanities, but I understand it’s illogical to agree to work in a framework and preserve it and at the same time commit acts that would undermine that framework. Nehzat-e-Azadi never really accepted the constitution and used different code words (adherence in practice but not in belief [to the Islamic Republic]) to keep a distance from it. MKP openly challenged the constitution from the beginning and unfortunately the reformists have passed this threshold, and they are going to join the latter. When Nehzat-e-Azadi candidates ran for Councils (city and village…) elections, they failed miserably; the same has been happening for the reformists for several elections.
    Finally, I’d like to add that contrary to what Iranian expatriates say, the political “center” of balance in Iran has been shifting away from liberalism constantly; compare Melli-Mazhabis, Reformists and now probably Kargozaran. And it’s not the stifling of political atmosphere, rather the inability of liberalism to deliver what the electorate want.

  108. Empty says:

    Bussed-in-Basiji,

    RE: “Let’s be clear who mentioned it first and who stole it and made it his bread and butter. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve seen one original thought by you in all these years. You’re a fake that spends his life posting other peoples ideas online.”

    Simply posting other people’s idea is not the most amusing part of what he does. The most amusing part is “HOW” he transforms the story. For example:

    On Oct. 18, 2011, this was posted on RFI site:

    <<<<<<<>>>>>>> From: http : //www . raceforiran.com/leveretts-on-cnn-com-iranian-plots-and-american-hubris#comment-59023 **

    On July 14, 2014 (about 3 years later), this is what he wrote:

    <<<<<>>>>>> From: http : // goingtotehran.com/the-two-state-solution-is-dead-where-does-the-palestinian-conflict-go-from-here#comment-52333

    Don’t you find that amusing? At first, I thought these were coincidences. After a while, I began to notice a pattern.

  109. Empty says:

    These parts were not posted above:

    10/18/2011 post by someone else— This particular story began like this: The keeper was and still is an old man who barely finished the 5th grade in elementary school due to family circumstances and other factors. A few years ago, having been denied a loan from a bank (bless him for not having his life tainted by the banking business] and not having any piece of land to his name, he chose a desolate desert that amounted to “nothing” in the eyes of the “elites” and began working on “nothing”, again, in the eyes of the “elites”. He planted a young نهال [sapling] from a fantastic قلمه [cutting] he had obtained (for free) from a grape grower elsewhere. He purchased a کوزه سفالی [un-glossed clay water pot] for what amounts to less than a couple of dollars and buried it close to the young vine making sure the narrow opening sticks out. Every few weeks, he walked from where he lived to where his vine tree lived and filled the pot with water [isn’t diffusion a magnificent mechanism?] After about three years, the keeper of the vine began to harvest the first fruit of his labor. He, I believe, is perfect example of نخبه who can teach a thing or two to the Ph.D. “elites” of Karaj College of Agriculture (an off-shoot of Tehran University) who just this summer were complaining about “lack of opportunity” to put their “education” at work.

    7/14/2014 post transformed by fyi–“I think the entire mentality of people has to be changed. I recall this farmer in Khouzestan almost 40 years ago – he had buried large earthen jars in the ground at regular intervals in his vegetable patch. Then, rather than digging ditches to get precious water to the plants, he would pour water into these terra-cotta jars and the plants would receive the water through osmosis. Truly a great insight. I suppose with proper multi-physics modeling one could deduce the optimal shape and volume for these jars, based on the qualities of the soil, and proceed from there.”

  110. Empty says:

    Amir,

    RE: “I understand it’s illogical to agree to work in a framework and preserve it and at the same time commit acts that would undermine that framework.”

    You mean like what P5+1 has been trying to do in all “agreements” they reach with Iran….

  111. Amir says:

    Empty says:
    August 2, 2014 at 2:07 am
    :)) exactly

  112. M. Ali says:

    I don’t understand why people like fyi never seem to understand the concept of a society. They act like it is only Iran, out of 150 plus countries, that has Laws. No country ever lets people decide for themselves in all manners. We’ve discussed this before, but there are restrictions on people’s actions and clothings anywhere you go. In terms of clothing, one country might restrict full nudity, another might not allow a person to wear nazi clothes, another enforces hijab while another bans hijab, one says its okay for women to have their their breasts out, another country says its a no-no, then there are countries that allow one to be fully naked at a beach but not at a children’s playground. Then there are of course clothing rules regarding safety, what to wear at a construction site, or even dressing laws regarding certain jobs, like what a soldier or a cop should wear.

    None of these countries have a “wear what the fuck you want whenever the fuck you want” policy. But NOOOO, those ARE DIFFERENT! That doesn’t count, surely! That’s soooo different! All that is apparently okay and understandable, and the only exception is Iran’s rule of hijab.

    Then, of course, there are laws restricting my other freedoms in different countries. Why can’t I drive around without a seatbelt in some countries? Its my God given right NOT to have to wear a seatbelt! Why can’t I smoke in libraries? Why can’t I inject heroin at work? Why are countries restricting my freedom to marry whoever I want, I can’t marry a man in one country, while in another I can, however, that country won’t allow me to marry four women, while another allows that, yet they don’t allow me to marry fourty, while another doesn’t let me marry a 16 year old girl, though another does, yet another doesn’t let me go down to marrying 14 year old, some allow me to marry my first cousin, but not my sister, and how come no country allows me to legally marry my horse?

  113. M. Ali says:

    Now specifically gender segregation. In almost all countries, there is some form of gender segregation. Imagine if all western countries did not have bathroom segregation and all bathrooms were unisex. Now if Iran seperated them, people like fyi would raise an uproar. Oh my god, gender segregation in Iran in regards to seperating male and female bathrooms! How disprespectful to women! Infringing on God given rights! Let orf handle it!

    But since its norm in the west, then its okay, we are allowed to segregate women based on that.

    Now, my own opinion, I personally don’t believe in gender segregation at work. Now, mine has nothing to do with emotional-laden arguments, which is false and hypocritical, but I believe gender segregation at work might create inefficiency, and what Iran needs is much better efficiency at work, to progress as a country. However, at the same time, I will admit that it is problematic. One thing to consider is western statistics regarding infidelity.

    Here are some stats (these are western statistics),
    “2 out of 3 women and 3 out of 4 men admit they have sexual thoughts about co-workers. ”

    “The latest statistics show that 70 per cent of us have had an office romance, ”

    “According to Dr. Glass’ research, 46 percent of unfaithful wives and 62 percent of unfaithful husbands in her practice over the last two decades had affairs with someone at work. And for women, the number of those having affairs has steadily grown — from 1982 to 1990, 38 percent of unfaithful wives had work affairs compared with 50 percent of cheating wives from 1991 to 2000. ”

    “85% of affairs begin in the workplace. ” (a more recent article)

    So all of this shows that work can be concerning for family life. The argument could be, “what is the government’s business!! fuck off, government!” But again, we do expect government to assist us in bettering our lives. That’s why we have a government in the first place! But how to have it improve our life effectively is not something any country has yet fully discovered. So, all debates should be on pros and cons on how a policy can better a society, rather than arguing emotional laden debates that add nothing and do nothing and helps no one.

    For me, the difficulty comes in that, I admit that work life between men and women CAN create disharmony in a family life, however, I also think that seperating them creates inefficiency at work. The solution to this is not evident, but policy makers should discuss it in detail to see if a effective solution can be found.

  114. Empty says:

    M. Ali,

    RE: how come no country allows me to legally marry my horse?

    In the US – because your horse doesn’t have an advocacy/lobby group like American Horsi Political Action Committe (AHPAC) to get things rolling.

    In Iran, because your children would be centaurs and become butt of many jokes (not to mention at school other kids would want to ride them).

  115. Amir says:

    M. Ali says:
    August 2, 2014 at 3:51 am

    …, and how come no country allows me to legally marry my horse?
    Good one! 🙂

    [We might have different opinions here but] I want to add that as homosexuality was removed from sexual deviations in DSM-II (classification for psychiatric disorders) in 1974, other people have been arguing in favor of removing pedophilia from the list of paraphiliae (NAMBLA) while some have argued for legalization of polygamy; legislatures in western hemisphere have opposed both. Now, we are not in favor of child molestation! But the argument in opposition to polygamy roughly explains that it would hinder empowerment of women; I want to take this argument one step further and propose that all women be banned from marriage so that they could reach their full potential (just kidding). My point is those who can afford it will try to impose their norms upon others in the name of progress, humanity, logical or historical necessity or the moral obligation of lifting primitive people out of barbarity. It’s not about liberalism, it’s about domination, or so I think.

  116. M. Ali says:

    Here are some more work facts,

    “In studies of sexual harassment in American companies, psychologist, Louise Fitzgerald, PhD, discovered that 40 to 60 percent of women in these companies experienced some form of harassing behavior.”

    “Almost 15% of female respondents reported that they had experienced unwelcome sexual contact from their co-workers, supervisors or both. If they refused the sexual advances, close to 33% of respondents indicated that they suffered negative consequences such as reduced status and decreased pay.” (Bulgaria)

    “A survey conducted in Poland in 2002 concluded that 25% of women report experiencing unwelcome sexual advances in the workplace from colleagues and 18% of women report experiencing unwelcome sexual advances in the workplace from a supervisor. A director of an organization in Gdansk estimated, however, that in reality 50% of Polish women are victims of harassment in the workplace”

    “One quarter of Czechs, primarily women, reported experiencing sexual harassment in the workplace.”

    “The poll concluded that 78 percent of Armenian women consider themselves subject to violence and sexual harassment. According to the poll, such treatment causes one in every five women to quit her job and 5 percent of women have been forced into unwanted relationships with a male co-worker in a superior position within the company” (Armenia)

    “One researcher has noted that in Russia, more than half of men and most women believe that a woman who protests or resists sexual harassment in the workplace risks losing her job or suffering other retaliatory measures such as a reduction in salary, and may be unable to pursue a professional career.”

    “Very roughly, the percentage of female employees who have received unwanted sexual proposal (experienced some forms of sexual harassment) can be estimated at between 40 and 50 percent.” (Western Europe)

    “…reports that estimates made from six European studies place the proportion of women experiencing workplace sexual harassment at between 45 and 81 percent, and those reporting it at between 5 and 22 percent.”

    “The Women’s Legal Center, a South African NGO, estimated in July 2001 that 76 percent of women had experienced some form of sexual harassment; 40 percent of these women had left their jobs or changed jobs as a result of the harassment”

    “A 1997 survey by the Japanese Ministry of Labor reported that 62 percent of women claimed to have experienced at least one act of sexual harassment”

    “The New Zealand Human Rights Commission survey on sexual harassment in 2000 found that one-third of all women had been sexually harassed. Younger women were likely to be harassed and the most common place was the office.”

    “In 2004, the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission reported the results of a nation-wide survey, which found that 41 per cent of Australian women aged between 18 and 64 years have experienced sexual harassment. Two-thirds of this sexual harassment occurred in the workplace, with 28 per cent of Australian women reporting that they experienced sexual harassment at work. One-half of the incidents of reported workplace harassment continued for more than six months and half were considered very or extremely offensive by interviewees.”

    I’m not saying gender segregation at work IS THE SOLUTION, but there is OBVIOUSLY a worldwide problem, and the non-Iranian countries have not found the answer, and it is better to engage in serious and honest discussions. By being blind to real facts and engage in pointless liberal jargons, one is actually harming the female population rather than helping them.

    One good example is Iran’s segregation of the public system. I bet this reduces the assaults on women taking the train drastically, which gives them the confidence and comfort in travelling. Watch this video, specially the end part, where one of the interviewees doesn’t ride trains anymore due to fear of harrassment.

  117. fyi says:

    Persian Gulf says:

    August 1, 2014 at 11:16 pm

    I agree with you and much of that must come from the ability to judge things correctly form inside the individual’s own humanity – therefore the ideas of Humanism. That is, sometimes it makes sense to follow orf, sometimes to follow Sharia, and unfortunately, that judgment by necessity must lie on a foundation outside of either one.

    Now, I had earlier tried to point out that incorporations of the Revelations of Jesus could help expand the scope of what is permissible and what is not – a position that is not popular.

    Unfortunately, from the stand-point of creating a firm foundation for one’s actions, the Revelations, the Tradition, or Humanistic Ideas and Ideals cannot serve – one needs, for example, to bring in extra-textual sources, methods and understandings to the study of the Revelations for example – things that do not exist within the Revelations itself. On the other hand, Tradition, left to itself, could only end in Death & Destruction. And we know that Humanistic approaches suffer from an absence of a firm yard stick for the Moral Order – in the absence of the Revelations.

    To me, there is no stable recipe-based firm way of adjudicating among these 3 ingredients; Revelations, Tradition, and Humanistic values – it is a matter of judgment and wisdom – and even them one can be probe to error. And that is why the Quran starts with a prayer for guidance from God.

  118. fyi says:

    ataune says:

    August 2, 2014 at 12:45 am

    The so-called Liberal Order has many issues and problems, without a doubt. But I think that you are perhaps unfamiliar with Muslim scene – in which any opinion not conforming to a brick-layer’s opinion would get you killed.

    You can dismiss that by invoking the failures of the liberal order, Axis Powers, etc. – both historical and contemporary – as many other have done. The fact however remains that political, moral, religious dissent normally does not get you killed in the Axis Powers; excepting the semi-religion of Shoah that can land you in jail if you question its authenticity – itself a perversion of the liberal order.

    Your number 1 item, again, I completely disagree. Fundamentally, I am inspired by the Deeds of the Prophets who aimed to bring people together, to make men brothers and not to make enemies and turn them asunder. After the fiasco of 2009, I am more convinced of the correctness of my approach.

    Your second point is an argument for restricting debate – you are entitled to it. But it is a silly approach.

    On your number 3, it matters not where and how US policy originated, it will be – if it already has not – transformed into a civilizational-religious war as this war against Islamic Iran continues. When you are waging a war against the core states of Muslim Civilization, and the list of your enemies coincide largely with Shia – then it is somewhat ridiculous to say that you are not in a religious war.

    The foreign policy course might or might not be wise, we only will know if the coming years. It has succeeded in bringing US to the negotiating table. On the other hand, if Iran had left NPT in 1998, we would not be in this place; Iran would have been a nuclear-armed state and much more secure than she is today.

  119. fyi says:

    Jay says:

    August 2, 2014 at 1:05 am

    I think you do not appreciate the extent of acceptance of dissent among Axis Powers and the depth of intolerance of dissent outside of those states.

  120. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    August 2, 2014 at 1:53 am

    There are people in Iran that cannot get elected to the Majlis since they do not outwardly conform to Islam per the revised electoral law of the Second Majlis.

    That is unacceptable.

    I really do not care about the Freedom Movement, MKO, or any others.

    Nor do I arrogate to myself the power to discern what is in the hearts of men – as you stated: “…they didn’t really accept the constitution…”. I do not know and I do not care – the Prophet accepted Abu Sofyan – even when he stated “..there is something else in my heart…”

    You need to bring people together and let them be elected and be heard. If people do not like the results, the next vote will clear the slate.

    When that law was passed, one of the MP who had voted for it, stated: “without this law we cannot get elected.”

    They knew what they were doing….

  121. fyi says:

    Empty says:

    August 2, 2014 at 1:58 am

    What I related on this forum happened 40 years ago – evidently others have seen it.

    I did not copy from the site you quoted.

  122. fyi says:

    M. Ali says:

    August 2, 2014 at 3:51 am

    What is wrong with “orf” and leaving women alone?

    Why do you insist on creating division?

    Are Turks not Muslims; go there and see for yourself instead of invoking abstract models of how women are to behave or controlled by their betters – always foolish men.

    Go to Dushanbeh or Astaneh for God’s Sake and see the Muslim women there….

    Who are those Central Asian women, harlots?

    The world does not need sanctimonious fools…

  123. fyi says:

    M. Ali says:

    August 2, 2014 at 9:10 am

    The state is not using her security organs in any of these cases that you have posted to control the behavior of women.

    Unlike Iran.

    And even if conceding that harassment by men remains an issue for women all over the world; I fail to see the logic behind – in essence – punishing women.

    If the moral police had any morality, it would go about education Muslim men to leave Muslim women alone.

    You solution, if such may be called, inevitably will result in a police state – Saudi Arabia is then perfection for you and your kind.

  124. M.Ali says:

    Thanks for not reading anything I or anyone else posted.

    All countries have morality police. Stop debating at the level of a YouTube commentator.

    I wasn’t talking about Muslim women or otherwise so I am not sure why you keep comparing it to Turkey. I mentioned, clearly and with examples, that all nations set laws on dressing, behavior, conduct, and individual freedoms. Yet, you act like only Iran does this. When you mention statements like, “to leave women alone”, I feel like I’m stuck in some kind of preachy, NGO commercial. No country leaves its individuals completely alone because than it wouldn’t be a society governed by laws. Seriously, I feel like I’m stuck in some kind of infomercial with you. These are childish, useless ways to discuss anything.

    I gave examples. I used allegory. I gave statistics and facts. Yet, You ignored them because your head is so up your own ass that you are French missing your own anus.

    I hate being insulting in a debate but when someone is so incapable of engaging in a normal manner, it frustrates Me because I wonder why do people like you even engage in ONLINE discussions. If solo wanking is your pleasure, just set the webcam on your self and fap away. Fall of man…ahh…orf…ahh…leave everyone alone…orf orf ORRRRRFFFFFFF.

    I’m done.

  125. Amir says:

    fyi says:
    August 2, 2014 at 9:52 am

    Sir I’m not an expert of law but I understand that if something is mandated by law (preserving the totality of the Islamic Republic in this case), tacitly the actions and behaviors necessary to facilitate that (outward conformity to Islam) are obligatory as well. If someone wants to run for the office in the US, he or she would not only abide by law, but also would refrain “scandalous” acts, not all of them necessarily unlawful; the same holds true for a member of the parliament in Iran.
    Your example of Abu Sufyan is, er, funny. Prophet accepted his submittion to Islam, but I doubt he would have suggested him for any sensitive positions!
    قالت العراب آمنا قل لم تومنوا ولکن قولوا اسلمنا it clearly states that the prophet knew about their intentions (were there for a ride and in the first suitable occasion going back to their old ways)
    I understand you have something with “people’s intentions in their hearts”; I don’t think anybody here is advocating for inquiring into people’s true intentions or classifying people based on how Muslim their are, deep deep down in their hearts (نحن نحکم بالظاهر). BUT, letting people with questionable backgrounds into sensitive governmental positions and trusting them with people’s vital interests was, is and would always be a blunder. You seem to like the US; when they captured the Rosenbergs in the fifties, they didn’t let them wander about, or back into the government.

  126. James Canning says:

    @Ataune,

    Do you think Iran would be richer, and much stronger, if it did not have the sanctions problem?

  127. James Canning says:

    Kooshy,

    If you are suggesting I did not think Iran could refuel the TRR, you are dead wrong. If you are suggesting I was afraid to say I was sure Iran could refuel the TRR, you are dead wrong.

  128. James Canning says:

    Kooshy,

    I was not one of those who argued that Iran would not be able to refuel the TRR. I have said this was a cover story to conceal the abject stupidity, of blocking Iran’s application to buy TRR fuel.

  129. Dan Cooper says:

    Let’s not mince words. Israelis are committing genocide in Gaza. But the United Nations is loath to use the “G” word and it us using the “C” (condemn) word instead.

    Why? Money talks. The top financier of the United Nations is America, with a whopping 22.00% in direct funds (followed by Japan 10.83%, Germany 7.14%, France 5.59%, and GB 5.18%); if the United Nations called out the genocide in Gaza, its top financier would have to be punished for its complicity.

    According to Article 3 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, persons committing genocide or being complicit in genocide shall be punished “whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.”

    The United States not only supports and funds the ongoing genocide in Gaza, replenishes Israel with more funds and weaponry, but it also uses its political clout to enable Israel to continue its ruthless crimes against humanity.

    While many have not been shy about calling these crimes genocide, they have come under attack for using the “G” word. Is genocide an appropriate term to use? Well, it is if one has respect for international law and the rules of the genocide convention. Article 2 of the Convention clearly spells out:

    “In the present Convention, genocide means any [emphasis added]of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part [emphasis added], a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    • (a) Killing members of the group;
    • (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    • (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    • (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    • (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

    There is little argument and ample evidence that Israel’s actions against the people of Gaza in particular, and Palestine as whole, constitute genocide.

    While the pro-Israel Western media has been unable to conceal the daily, indiscriminate killing of anything that breathes and moves in Gaza (Article 2a) and the terrorization of children, the young and the old (mental harm) with the constant bombardment, bulldozers, and drones (Article 2b), the media has been apt at hiding the horrific effects of the blockade – the deliberate infliction of condition of life calculated to bring about physical destruction in whole or in part (Article 2c).

    In 2010, Amnesty International’s report Suffocating Gaza – the Israeli blockade’s effects on Palestinians detailed the reality of life in Gaza including restricting the entry of basic goods, food and fuel. On January 28, 2014, the daily Haaretz ran an article entitled “In Gaza, water – and time – are running out; Experts say Gaza water shortage likely to bring about illness.” The situation has only exasperated.

    Yet, in spite of the evidence, the United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, ignoring all other atrocities, calls an attack on a UN school which killed innocent civilians “outrageous.” Perhaps he ought to be reminded of, and heed his predecessor, Kofi Annan who acknowledged responsibility for not having done more to prevent or stop the Rwanda genocide. In his July 2004 address to the Commission on Human Rights, Mr. Annan said:

    “If we are serious about preventing or stopping genocide in future, we must not be held back by legalistic arguments about whether a particular atrocity meets the definition of genocide or not. By the time we are certain, it may often be too late to act. We must recognize the signs of approaching or possible genocide, so that we can act in time to avert it.”

    Ban ki-Moon must have missed the speech and the memo; although in July 2012, he did appoint Adam Dieng of Senegal as his Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide – only to refrain from the “G” word it would seem.

    The American government is not alone in its complicity in genocide or in inciting it. Mainstream media networks and commentators who paint a picture of an Israel “self-defense” to give room to the continued genocide are complicit and must be punished. But in the opinion of this writer, the vilest partners in this crime are the Egyptian and Saudi leaders committing fratricide.

    Egypt’s military coup leader and the illegitimate president of Egypt, al-Sisi, whom the Israel ambassador called a ‘hero for all Jews,’ has trapped the Gazans so that Israel can eliminate them all. Genocide will prove to be lucrative business for the Egyptians. Piping Israeli gas (stolen from Gaza) to liquefaction plants in Egypt to be converted into LNG and exported across the world.

    [SIDE BAR: In 2009, David Wurmser writing for the Jewish policy Center opined, “Israel and its neighbor now sit atop roughly two years’ worth of European consumption.” He further suggests “even modest amounts of Israeli gas exports can carry significant strategic leverage.” Citing Europe’s gas vulnerability, Wurmser wrote, “Europe’s grim reality could represent a unique window of opportunity for Israel to nail down long-term agreements and align export policy with a broader effort to reset Israeli-European relations.”

    The MH-17 was brought down four hours after Israel’s ground invasion of Gaza. Europeans reluctant to enforce further sanctions on Russia were no longer so reluctant.

    Israel’s interest in Egypt and its opposition to the elected president of the Egyptian people, Mohammad Morsi, went beyond a gas transit and the Palestinians. On May 30, 2013, The Times of Israel reported that the construction on the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam (on the Blue Nile) had sparked a major diplomatic crisis with Egypt – a concern shared with Saudi Arabia and its plans to divert water from the Nile. In 2012, it was reported that Saudi Arabia had claimed a stake in the Nile.

    The Saudi regime showered the coup government with aid after the overthrow of Morsi. In January, Egypt received a further $4 billion, and in May, Saudi Arabia showered the Egyptians with another $3 billion while Egypt trapped Gazans to be slaughtered by Israel.

    Never has the world witnessed so much impunity. The United Nations refuses to acknowledge genocide and takes no part in preventing or punishing it. The silence of those guarding our rights and our laws makes them the silent partners in this crime against humanity. As Jonathan Swift said, “I never wonder to see men wicked, but I often wonder to see them not ashamed.”

    Gaza Genocide and Arab Fratricide

    By Soraya Sepahpour-Ulrich

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39301.htm

  130. Jay says:

    fyi says:
    August 2, 2014 at 9:46 am

    Your response did not directly address the questions I have raised.

    Moving on to the point you raised regarding tolerance of dissent…

    We note here the effective imprisonment of Julian Assange, the ongoing harassment of Hrafnsson, the secret proceedings and incarceration of Hammond, the need for Snowden to hide in Russia, the detaining of Glen Greenwald’s partner under terror laws in Britain, the destruction of property at the Guardian, … and I can go on if necessary.

    One could argue that tolerance of dissent exists as a social and political steam valve – real dissent has been absent from many Western societies for decades. Once dissent reaches a threshold of effectiveness, it is not tolerated.

    Of course one can argue that one cannot generalize from these instances. Which brings me back to the point I raised and perhaps you missed. So, let me raise it once again:

    There is a set of examples you have presented; all confounded by many variables. What is the logical basis upon which your generalized claims (generalized from the examples) is constructed?

  131. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    August 2, 2014 at 12:20 pm

    That is fine; you do not want to let people with questionable past become stand for election.

    Then repeal the law – since the reason for its existence has now disappeared.

    A surgeon who wear a necktie and is clean shaven and was born in 1360 cannot stand for elections to Majlis – he would be disqualified.

    Are you suggesting that he is disloyal to Islam or to the Islamic System?

    As for your first point – that was the political argument of all Doctors of Religion of Islam – toleration and endorsement of Tyranny so that the state could survive.

    And the state did not – they all collapsed in less than 230 years – excepting the Ottoman Empire.

  132. fyi says:

    Jay says:

    August 2, 2014 at 1:57 pm

    The cases that you have mentioned are themselves indicators of the corruption and indeed abuse of the Liberal order.

    They do not establish the norm –

    But they are instances of state abuse of its power against individual liberty & dissent.

    What I am speaking of is the absolute intolerance for any opinion by the population itself.

    In the example of Pakistan that I brought up, it is not the state that will kill you, it is the-man-on-the-street.

  133. Amir says:

    fyi says:
    August 2, 2014 at 2:12 pm
    Why would someone who insists on wearing a tie stand for Islamic Parliament of Iran? I knew a few people fitting this description and they all wanted to leave the country (not participating in the political system they didn’t like!). You might say what if someone wanted to do this and he/she was barred from standing for election; because it wouldn’t be prudent to let people who do not adhere to accepted norms hold such positions (it’s like having a feminist member of the parliament; you might deem that totally acceptable, but that wouldn’t work).
    Also, any system has to seek stability, and for political systems it could be achieved through restricting those with less adherence to the tenants of that system to lower managerial positions; the surgeon in your example could become a consultant to the Ministry of Health, but he couldn’t become a deputy there.
    I’m not familiar with theological doctrines, but looking at my colleagues who are currently MPs, I could see they believe in what they are doing (Islamic practices) and that’s the point; the Islamic Republic is government by believers, not those who do things for expediency. I can’t see how this would lead to tyranny either.
    I sense we have entered a loop here and further discussion on this issue is pointless, since neither of us would back down.

  134. Jay says:

    fyi says:
    August 2, 2014 at 2:15 pm

    Excellent point you raised in your first line! But the remaining argument falls short.

    However, what we have here is a democratic society that elects leaders to establish socio-political norms. This indirect governance and acceptance of subsequent norms then leads to such tremendous abuses and lack of tolerance for dissent. In my view, this indirect intolerance does not absolve the individual citizen. For the average American knows, as shown in poll after poll, of such abuses and yet “lives with it”.

    In a more abstract sense, the nature of a social order is filtered through many layers. When one singles out one layer and attaches most good or evil to that one layer, one is risking the incorporation of ones own bias into the conclusion.

  135. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    August 2, 2014 at 3:13 pm

    You asked: “Why would someone who insists on wearing a tie stand for Islamic Parliament of Iran?”

    The answer is: “Because he has a right to do so.”

    And if this person, born and bred in Islamic Iran, seeks to leave his country, then the Islamic Government and System has failed for it clearly has alienated Muslims who wish to leave the Islamic System for some place else.

    You say: “… the Islamic Republic is government by believers…” then how can you tell if someone is believer or not?

    You cannot, of course, you do not have any way of reading what is in their hearts and thus you essentially say that those who are not dressed this way or that way or are wearing this thing or that thing, are not Muslims.

    That is, in practice, you arrogate to yourself the right to judge others being Muslim or not.

    Well, quite frankly, you and no one else has such a prerogative or right – that is God’s and His alone.

    My suggestion to you is to accept everyone as a Muslim and move from there.

  136. fyi says:

    Jay says:

    August 2, 2014 at 3:31 pm

    I completely disagree with the statement “…a democratic society that elects leaders to establish socio-political norms…”.

    That is a Jacobin statement which I wholeheartedly oppose and condemn; it always leads to oppression and destruction at the hands of the social engineers who think that they can supersede the bounds of human nature and create – in effect – a New Man and a New Society.

    The representative of people are elected to run the state – operate the machinery of the government – that was so in Ancient Athens and it is so now – just look at UK; the longest and most successful such order.

  137. nico says:

    M.Ali says:
    August 2, 2014 at 11:17 am

    “Thanks for not reading anything I or anyone else posted.”

    The issue with such people is that they are ideologically and religiously driven.
    What is more insulting ?
    Harsh words constructed with logic and facts ? Hoping for some kind of wake up.
    Or slimmy polite words based on sophistry and absence of justification ?

    You get it.
    As I said few years ago here. Canning and fyi are the same ideologically and in their rhetoric.
    They will bend reallity to their liking and whatever the discussion will never agree simple facts.
    The difference is irreconciliable.
    With such people there is no agreement to be sought.
    They need to be fought toe and nail.

  138. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Congratulations everyone on this beautiful shitstorm raining down on our old pal.

    But don’t hold your breath, he has displayed amazing autistic-savant like abilities to disregard verbal and non-verbal language cues.

    Empty,

    He reminds of these old Shah-era lower level civil servant types, incorrectly repeating theories and rehashed stories they heard somewhere at parties to cover up their bricklayer origins.

    Fuckin pathetic.

    M Ali,

    Love it when you get pissed off, it’s hilarious.

    old pal,

    There are so many examples of idiotic shit you pull out of your ass, I can’t answer every single one, except by way of some samples:

    “What is wrong with “orf” and leaving women alone?

    Why do you insist on creating division?

    Are Turks not Muslims; go there and see for yourself instead of invoking abstract models of how women are to behave or controlled by their betters – always foolish men.

    Go to Dushanbeh or Astaneh for God’s Sake and see the Muslim women there….

    Who are those Central Asian women, harlots?

    The world does not need sanctimonious fools…”

    Who ever said anyone is a harlot? You realize you are just repeating the voices inside your own head without reference to actually what’s happening in the real world.

    All of it because you have deep-seated unresolved ogdes that interfere with your normal mental processes.

    Get some fuckin help and leave US the fuck alone!

    And speaking of “leaving (women) alone”.

    Thailand launches women-only train cars after girl, 13, raped and murdered

    http://www.trust.org/item/20140801160819-50s83/

    “BANGKOK (Thomson Reuters Foundation) – Thailand’s national rail operator has introduced train carriages for women and children only following the murder and rape of a 13-year-old girl on an overnight train that sparked public outrage and calls for rapists to face the death penalty.

    “I feel a lot safer now because before, the bogeys (carriages) were mixed with male passengers, and there were no protection measures for our safety. There were only curtains separating us,” said 18-year-old Katthaleeya Aroon, a university student on her way to Yala province near the border with Malaysia. “Now I feel more confident in travelling, and my family can allow me to travel by train with my friends.””

    Really, these idiot cargo cult Thais, what are they thinking restricting our God given right to be raped!

    fyi, azizam you clearly have mental issues. Try not posting for a few weeks and spend a little time reflecting on the years you have spent on this site, and maybe reconsider some of your views that you had coming into here.

    I know, it’s hard for old dogs to learn new tricks, just give it a shot.

    “If the moral police had any morality, it would go about education Muslim men to leave Muslim women alone.”

    If you actually had a normally functioning brain, you would realize that even if that’s all the police did, just statistically there would still be some who didn’t leave women alone, you know nutjobs with similar issues like you. THAT”S WHY WE HAVE A POLICE FORCE, BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS GOOD NO MATTER “HOW” CIVILIZED THEIR PARENTS AND SOCIETY ARE!

    The least of it are people with mental disturbances- genetic and chemically induced. I mean why have police in Europe catching thieves and murderers- if they knew what they were doing they would teach people not to steal and kill? You don’t realize like what an idiot you come across when you say shit like that. Take a little time-out, ok?

    And let me tell a you little “secret”, the term “morality police” is redundant. Any police force anywhere in the world is enforcing “moral codes”. Ours happen to be based on sharia (see discussion of letter of the Quran).

    “A surgeon who wear a necktie and is clean shaven and was born in 1360 cannot stand for elections to Majlis – he would be disqualified.”

    Again totally and randomly pulled out of your ass. You seem not to be familiar with the current minister of health.

    Just admit that whatever you say is based on knowledge and certain events 30 years ago when they took away your Pink Floyd tape (you still haven’t told us which album, or was it a “mixed tape”?). Just admit that you are totally outdated as to what’s happening in Iran and commit to a self-imposed hiatus on commenting on matters you are not very familiar with- you now as a decent, civilized, objective westerner. Deal?

    “The cases that you have mentioned are themselves indicators of the corruption and indeed abuse of the Liberal order.”

    Just a hint: when you right “Liberal” with a capital “L” you are kinda admitting that “Liberalism” is of a divine order in your own view. You know that means? You’re a “Liberal” and I’m a “Muslim” AS A RELIGIOUS MATTER and so of course I’m gonna want to chop your head off if you try to convert me in my own homeland. In other words we won the civil war in the 1980s and you are a war refugee having fled the civil war you lost. Here’s historical analogy you like so much to use smartass: heard about the “confederales” in Brazil after 1865?

  139. Amir says:

    fyi says:

    Sir, I can’t communicate this message to you that holding political positions is a totally different situation from let’s say exoressig your opinion and it’s not about being a good Muslim either. Islamic Republic is not a secular government where you could be a good Muslim in your heart but your acts deviate widely from both norm and sharia. You can’t say “leave me be, how dare you judge me, my intent is pure and only what is in my heart matters”.
    Also, thirty years ago there were faithful Muslims who wore ties; those colleagues who I mentioned were agnostics. I haven’t seen average Joe Iranians who would tie their future to a tie.

  140. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    For the record:

    Of course you still haven’t addressed the issue of the “essential paradox of western civilization”- cause you can’t when the whole world is witnessing the ultimate western project called “Israel” doing what it is doing these days.

    If you where intellectually honest you would own Israel as western civilization on steroids and if you had a conscience you would condemn them.

    You can’t.

    Also you didn’t define “Islamic Tradition”, you can only goh-mali answers like:

    “To me, there is no stable recipe-based firm way of adjudicating among these 3 ingredients; Revelations, Tradition, and Humanistic values – it is a matter of judgment and wisdom – and even them one can be probe to error. And that is why the Quran starts with a prayer for guidance from God.”

    You actually think this means something. It’s fuckin pathetic. You have spent so many years enjoying the tone of your own voice that you don’t realize what utter bullshit you are saying- and let’s not even mention your total disregard for Jay’s response in which he tried to explain how illogical you are. When in doubt, disregard evidence to the contrary, right weasel?

    Jay, let’s get crackin on that paper I suggested. First task: A nice definition of “pompous narcissist a-hole”. Thank God we have such a good case study.

    For the record:

    The standard by which to judge who is a “good” Muslim and who is “non-good” Muslim is zuhure kalaame Quran and outside appearances PRECISELY BECAUSE I DON”T KNOW WHAT IS IN THE PERSONS HEART! I will assume he is good if he appears to be, even if he’s an evil fucker. That’s how fuckin awesome Islam is and how idiotic you are! You have it all ass backwards and thus we can’t rely on your/mine “individual” “wisdom” and “judgement” cause here we just had a case where your judgement is shit.

    And speaking of “rule of law” that is unique to western civilization, guess who had his first day in court today?

    http://www.rajanews.com/detail.asp?lang_id=&id=198107

    Seriously, go on a vacation from this site for a few weeks and reflect a little old man.

  141. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    August 2, 2014 at 4:23 pm

    If understand you correctly, the late Dr. Ali Shariati was not a Muslim nor his wife and children…

    http://historicalwallpapers.blogspot.com/2011/04/ali-shariati-1933-1977.html

    And nor are Mr. Erdogan and Mr. Gul.

    Clarity is a wonderful thing….

  142. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    No you old fool, you don’t understand him correctly!

    At first we thought you were acting the fool…

  143. nico says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    August 2, 2014 at 4:22 pm

    “Just a hint: when you right “Liberal” with a capital “L” you are kinda admitting that “Liberalism” is of a divine order in your own view. You know that means? You’re a “Liberal” and I’m a “Muslim” AS A RELIGIOUS MATTER and so of course I’m gonna want to chop your head off if you try to convert me in my own homeland. In other words we won the civil war in the 1980s and you are a war refugee having fled the civil war you lost. Here’s historical analogy you like so much to use smartass: heard about the “confederales” in Brazil after 1865?”

    You have it right.
    Christian struggle against the enlightment lasted roughly 2 centuries.
    The final collapse of the Church was Vatican II which confirmed in an official way that the Christian moral should not be a standard imposed on society and then the Christian faith disapeared from the political landscape.
    The issue is that it was replaced with something else. And we know where it leads.
    fyi true dream come true would be the same everywhere.
    Unfortunately that struggle was in Islamic governance advantage in Iran. To bad for him he cannot stand that very fact and respect that.
    In truth he puts the enlightment secular social organization above and at the very top of his trancendency.
    Again that is ideologically and religiously driven.
    The issue is that he is not able to recognize that. The wires in his head are going short circuit.

  144. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    August 2, 2014 at 4:23 pm

    And a few non-Muslims in Turkey

    http://campus-heimtextil-2012.blogspot.com/2012/01/mimar-sinan-fine-arts-university.html

  145. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    You know it’s just not “orf” to wear ties in Iranian official circles anymore.

    Case fuckin closed as far as you are concerned!

    You know it goes against my individual liberty and freedom that the Senate won’t confirm me as secretary of x if I have a pierced eyebrow (wait until they find out about the pierced scrotum) or visible tatooes or I like to wear baggy jeans or a leather jacket instead of suit.

    Yeah these oppressive Eye-ranians really limit the pool unfairly!

    Indeed clarity would be a wonderful thing if you displayed it old fool.

  146. nico says:

    fyi says:
    August 2, 2014 at 4:31 pm

    “If understand you correctly, the late Dr. Ali Shariati was not a Muslim nor his wife and children…
    And nor are Mr. Erdogan and Mr. Gul.”

    Sophistic argument born out af a typical western enlightment humanitarian imperialist.

    Who said the Islam of Iran, Turkey, KSA, Algeria or for that mattet the Islam in other countries are all the same ?
    The majority in each country build its own application based on their sects, culture, history and all than make a society.
    The issue is that you do not accept first the view of the majority and second the nation as the major measure of a society.
    You mix evrything in a chaotic maelstroem of nihilism.

    Just like the neocons abolutists and their world views and other humatarian imperialists dictating what is good or bad for everyone in the world… But only when that is in line with there real agenda.
    Not taking account facts, proportion, specificities, context, external manipulations.
    That is simplification and the level zero of reasoning.
    But as the enlightment child that you are you still think you are the only one having reason.
    Based on nothing but wild assertion and pontification.

  147. James Canning says:

    Bussed-In Basiji,

    Religious discrimination is a large part of the body politic of Israel, unlike most western countries.

  148. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    Cite one “simple fact” you claim I am unwilling to accept. ONE, please.

  149. James Canning says:

    Dan Cooper,

    There are nearly two million people in Gaza. That Israel slaughters a thousand or so every few years does not change this fact.

  150. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    In the transcript you just linked, Paul Pillar says he thinks Obama probably regrets the US role in the Libyan intervention. I have a hunch David Cameron regrets Britain’s role too.

  151. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 2, 2014 at 7:05 pm

    “In the transcript you just linked, Paul Pillar says he thinks Obama probably regrets the US role in the Libyan intervention. I have a hunch David Cameron regrets Britain’s role too.”

    In politics, regret is BS.
    What is your point ? Other than to find excuse ?

  152. Jay says:

    fyi says:
    August 2, 2014 at 3:58 pm

    Tea party folks use the term Jacobin as well – I suspect you are referencing the classical meaning. I was not constructing a central authority. I was merely pointing out that a democratic society with a legislature creates laws that create de facto social and political norms. It is to some extent self-referential and for this reason, it illustrates the convolved nature of norms and actions in society.

    It is an astonishing turnabout wherein, one the one hand, the European history of the recent era has been a unique historical event in your view, and on the other, it has created a political culture that supersedes bounds and leads to oppression and destruction. This is the deviation that has taken place, even in the UK – a place you suggest has had a long and successful order. By the standards of judgement you have provided, it appears that you uphold as the standard bearer and condemn as the destroyer the same framework!

    Beyond the philosophical constructs of great minds and at the level of ground truth of every day life, separations and deconvolutions that you interpret as condemnation of muslim culture are simply preconceived notions dressed up as the emperor.

  153. fyi says:

    Jay says:

    August 2, 2014 at 8:11 pm

    Again, I disagree.

    The American Constitution owes a lot to Christianity and its doctrines of Moral Law as well as Individual Rights. And then there is the matter of the “Tyranny of Greece and Rome” on the mind of Americans who framed that constitution.

    That is, there was a pre-existing context and foundation for what followed.

    The same can be said about the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

    There are limits – within Tradition – that new norms may be established. Outside of that, imbalance occurs and one has to “Restore Order”.

    No human construct is without defects – Men are in the State of Fall – of if you do not like that use one of American colloquialisms ; “Murphy’s Law, everything that can go wrong will go wrong”.

    The successes and failures of UK or US or France are relative to other attempts at constitutionalism, the rule of law, and representative government.

    That they are in a state of decay does not detract from some of their historical achievements.

    In regards to Muslim culture or indeed Chinese as well, the facts speak for themselves – 1300 years of bafflement in case of Muslim polities and 3000 years of the same bafflement among the Chinese.

    For only in the Crown Colony of Hong Kong – an un-Democracy – a few million Chinese experienced safety in their persons, in their property, and in their families during the past 3000 years.

    And only among Axis Powers states a few million Muslims are safe in their persons, in their property and in the honor of their womenfolk.

  154. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 2, 2014 at 7:05 pm

    In that transcript you will notice that P5+1 as a forum for resolving the Iran nuclear case is now dead – Russia will not go along with that.

    Only strategic settlement with Iran will extricate US from the position of “Balancer” against Iran in the Persian Gulf.

    But that will not happen either since US prefers supporting the fantasy project of Jews in Palestine at any cost.

    P5+1 as a forum for US-Iran discussions at governmental levels is probably effective.

  155. Amir says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    August 2, 2014 at 4:51 pm

    I don’t want to name names, but “someone” just drove me here: وعباد الرحمن الذين يمشون على الأرض هونا وإذا خاطبهم الجاهلون قالوا سلاما
    Khune khodetun ro kasif nakonin

  156. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    August 2, 2014 at 10:52 pm

    Yes, “fuck” and “shit” are words of Peace ….

  157. nico says:

    fyi says:
    August 2, 2014 at 11:36 pm

    “Yes, “fuck” and “shit” are words of Peace ….folk.”

    There is no peace to expect with your kind.
    The difference is irreconcialiable.
    And on top of that, your kind of sickening bastard deny the right of the Majority to find a peacefull outcome.
    You are the one lacking respect.
    You are neocons lite, with your “End of History”, your clash of civilization (and one easily understands that you fight for the western civilization, truly a traitor) and so on.

    Just I said few years ago, like Canning, your kind needs to be taken care of.
    Chopping is a good way to do just that.
    It seems that is why you fled in the US.

  158. nico says:

    fyi says:
    August 2, 2014 at 9:27 pm

    “The American Constitution owes a lot to Christianity and its doctrines of Moral Law as well as Individual Rights. And then there is the matter of the “Tyranny of Greece and Rome” on the mind of Americans who framed that constitution.”

    “That they are in a state of decay does not detract from some of their historical achievements.”

    Thank you for your useless blattering.
    You are stating facts I just uterred here few years ago in a much more clear fashion.
    The real question is why such decay and what should be done to “restore order”.

    You gave answer by yourself but you are unaware of that as your enlightment software is not capable to see outside of your intellectual prison.

    You noted the Christian origin of Western Moral.
    However the Enlightment revolution took place roughly the same time (when taken in Historical perspective) as the American constitution.
    Thus the slow death of the Christianity as a political reality is related to the “decay”.

    What does the SL said few years ago ?
    That the original issue of the western civilization is that it abandonned Abrahamic religion for the Materialist one with associated Moral.
    Such evolution does not happen overnight. What we are witnessing is the final phase of civilizational evolution over centuries.

    What does need to be done ?
    There is no sure answer but certainly new philosphy and trancendency needs to replace the former paradigm.
    It will happen not matter what as the current regime is unsustainable on the long civilizational run.

    But you fool are still trying to placate your old enlightment theories everywhere.

    You are an has been.

  159. Amir says:

    fyi says:
    August 2, 2014 at 11:36 pm
    Sir, I meant no disrespect. I’m sorry. I wasn’t talking about you in particular.

  160. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Like I told you already no “Liberal order” or dispensation of any kind whatsoever could have transformed Iran from a feudal society to the mass democracy and powerful state it is today.

    I told you this three times before- at one point you even agreed with me- but it seems you are getting old and forgetting things.

    Insisting on a “Liberal order” would have meant the brick layers and mulleteers riding into Tehran and chopping your’s and your kind’s heads off similar to what happened in Afghanistan at the time between “westernized”, “secular”, “enlightened”, “civilized” Kabulis and folks from other areas and the poor parts of town.

    You’re an old fool that doesn’t get it.

    Thank God Imam INSISTED on a central role for the bricklayers and muleteers, thank God he insisted on driving the rich fucks and liberal idiots like you whose only concern is their “individual liberty”.

    If he hadn’t you might now not be sitting in the US bothering us, but your body parts might have been scattered various parts of Tehran after the illiterate mob had gotten to you.

    The only option for Iran’s success is an illiberal Islamic Republic that is populist, revolutionary and proud of it.

    Amir has recently joined this caravan and he doesn’t know that you are not “jahel”, but that you are a bonafide nasebi that thinks the Prophet (swa) was delusional.

    You’re an old fool and “fuck” and “shit” are the only words you deserve to hear.

  161. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Amir-jan,

    Don’t confuse jahel with nasebi. Your nice manners are very praiseworthy but also not appropriate in certain cases.

    I pray for all our young researchers and doctors, we are very proud of you and I wish you success in your life.

  162. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    nico-jan,

    His job is to bad mouth a nation, people, culture and society that is building a new civilization and “order” with democracy, rule of law and advanced technology on bases other than his cargo cult.

    He keeps accusing us of being like old Jewish priests but it is in fact he who is like the old Jewish priests bad mouthing “Ruhollah”.

    You see I used “Ruhollah” as a pun, because it is both a name of Jesus (as) who the Jewish priests bad mouthed and also the first name of Imam (r) which this modern Pharisee opposes.

    http://english.khamenei.ir//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1934&Itemid=4

    “They created as many obstacles as they could during their confrontation with the Iranian peoples’ Revolution and great movement. They supported and defended Saddam Hussein although they did not approve of him. Because Saddam was against the Islamic Republic, they helped him as much as they could. Westerners, England, America and France provided him with chemical bombs and different kinds of military weapons. Well, these are our experiences. Westoxicated intellectuals do not benefit from these experiences and they do not analyze them correctly because their calculation system has been disrupted.

    One of the most important services of the Islamic Revolution was reviving true logic and reason in the country. The fact that you young students analyze regional issues, look at different events with complete precision, identify the enemy, analyze regional events and stand firm shows the reasonable life of a country. It was the Revolution that offered this to us, but today, some people still want to go back to prior conditions. The same westernized orientations – the ones that love the west, that humiliate our people and our achievements and that humiliate national culture and identity to the advantage of western powers – want the same powers to come again and to define and introduce standards for the affairs, culture and orientation of the country.

    Those who are working against the Islamic Republic under the flag of the bloody enemies of the people of Iran are people who are after dominating the same ignorance – calculational ignorance – and the same satanic temptation that once existed opposed to the rationality of this country. I advise the dear students to strengthen their studies – both on the issue of religious and political areas – as well their scientific work. You should try to strengthen your power of analysis.”

  163. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    nico-jan,

    The best and most important thing about Iran by far is that we have a leader who is both the religious and political head.

    Everything else pales in comparison to this one matter.

  164. nico says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    August 3, 2014 at 6:54 am

    And back to the point I just stated few years ago.

    After the cold war the westerners had a civilizational choice to make.
    Clearly we lacked leadership to guide us in the next century.

    What we got is the PNAC, the Neocons, the “End of History” and the clash of civilization.
    With counter weight the enlightment and humanitarian imperialists wickos the kind of Canning or fyi.
    Or else you have the backward ideolog communist dogmatic like has been James Petras.
    Or else the kind of talmudic humanitarian coward and sophist like Chomsky.

    Poor us.

  165. nico says:

    And you such obvious thing as Piketty’s book being acclaimed like the Messiah words.
    Truly provides a hint the level of degeneration.

  166. Jay says:

    fyi says:
    August 2, 2014 at 9:27 pm

    I read this (below) conclusion of your last post to me a few times to make certain that I am not misinterpreting the context.

    “And only among Axis Powers states a few million Muslims are safe in their persons, in their property and in the honor of their womenfolk.”

    Is it truly your position that the Muslims are safe among Axis Powers?

    On the face of it, this is a strange statement given the recent historical context in which Axis Powers have caused the death of millions of muslims, directly or indirectly, in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Gaza, … Just to name a few.

  167. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Speaking of petroyuan

    گمرک چین: رشد122 درصدی واردات به ایران در شش ماهه اول 2014
    دولت یازدهم چقدر شغل برای چینی ها درست کرد

    «گشایش روابط با غرب»، «عبور از بازی در زمین شرق»، «تبدیل غرب به یک متحد استراتژیک» و «کم کردون روابط با روسیه و چین» همه و همه، مفاهیمی بود که یک نماد بیشتر نداشت؛ «بد بودن واردات از چین».

    به گزارش پایگاه 598 به نقل از «خبرنامه دانشجویان ایران»، در سالهای قبل از دولت یازدهم، منتقدان یکی از دلایل ناکارآمدی فعالیتهای دیپلماتیک و روندهای اقتصادی را افزایش بی رویه کالا و خدمات از چین قلمداد می کردند.

    دولت یازدهم با شعارهایی که در بالا ذکر شد، در طول یکسال گذشته در حد حرف تلاش داشت نشان دهد که نگاه یکسویه چین به واردات به ایران وجود نخواهد داشت و از طرفی به زمین بازی دیگری به نام اروپا برای تبادل کالا و سرمایه و البته بیشتر واردات از غرب را دست خواهد یافت. یکی از نمادهای این ادعا رفت و آمد سفرا و هیئت های دیپلماتیک به وزارت خارجه و دفتر رییس جمهوری بود.

    واردات بی رویه از چین در سالهای پیش از این دولت به شکلی گسترده در رسانه های منتقد و مخالف آن دولت و مدعی حامی این دولت، تقبیح می شد. اگرچه نفس تقبیح «واردات بی رویه و جهت دار» و نه «واردات» عمل درستی به نظر می رسد، اما دست آویز کردن این مسئله برای یک مواجهه سیاسی و بی انصافانه صورت می گرفت.

    واردات از چین که دولت یازدهم ناتوانی شدید خود را در کنترل آن نشان داد، تنها در 6 ماهه اول 2014، (زمستان 92 و بهار 93) رشد 122 درصدی داشته است.
    رییس جمهور در یکی از جملات تبلیغاتی خود در گزارش صدروزه، گفت:« سال‌های اخیر، شغل زیاد درست کردیم، منتها برای چینی‌ها و کره جنوبی مرتب شغل اضافه کردیم».

    مبادلات تقبیح شده با چین! طبق گزارش گمرک چین ۲۶.۸ میلیارد دلار تنها در ۶ ماه نخست ۲۰۱۴ بوده است و واردات ایران از چین در این مدت رشد قابل توجه ۱۲۲ درصدی داشته و به 11 میلیارد دلار رسیده است.

    رئیس دولت یازدهم در همان گزارش تلویزیونی صد روزه از ضرورت کاهش واردات هم سخن گفت: «در سال قبل از ۸۴، واردات کشور حدود ۳۸ میلیارد دلار بود ولی بعد به کجا رسید؟ در سال ۹۰ به ۷۵ میلیارد دلار رسید. می‌بینید وقتی با دنیا در حال مبارزه هستید باید به خودتان و داخل تکیه کنید، با شعار که نمی‌شود مقابله کرد، باید تدبیر کنیم و در برابر زورگویی‌ها بایستیم. اولین راهش این است که به خودمان متکی شویم و واردات را کم کنیم.»

    همه این شعارها در حالی است که نه تنها در وارادت و نه تنها از چین، که باید گفت مجموع واردات حتی در کالاهایی که ایران به عنوان تولید کننده برتر آن ها در دنیا شناخته می شود، دولت روند مناسبی را در پیش نگرفته است.

    برخلاف شعارهای آقای رییس جمهور در یک نمونه کالا این امار مواجهه متناقضی را نشان می دهد. گزارش مرکز پژوهشهای مجلس نشان می دهد که ایران با واردات بیش از یک میلیون تن برنج، متاسفانه و با اندوه، پس از کشورهای فیلیپین ، نیجریه و عربستان سعودی در رده چهارم واردات برنج جهان قرار گرفته است. این در حالی است که عملکرد تولید برنج ایران به تقریب با متوسط عملکرد جهان برابری می کند و میزان واردات کشور حدودا 2 برابر میزان نیاز مصرف کشور است.

    در صنعت خودرو نیز ورود گسترده قطعات بی کیفیت از سوی مسئولان رسمی تایید شد.

    در این وانفسای تحریم ها، متاسفانه، سیاست گذاری های دولت یازدهم در حوزه واردات در مسیری تعریف شده است که در زمانی که کشور با تحریم و بلوکه بودن ارز مواجه است، ارزهایی که باید صرف واردات کالاهای اساسی و سرمایه ای شود صرف واردات کالاهای مصرفی لوکس و گران قیمت مثل خودرو می شود.

    گزارش گمرک نشان می دهد در فصل بهار ۲۳ هزار و ۲۴۲ خودرو به ارزش ۴۸۳ میلیون و ۲۲۳ هزار دلار وارد ایران شده است. این آمار یعنی سه برابر شدن واردات خودرو نسبت به بهار سال گذشته.

    اما همه گشایش هایی که در رابطه با غرب از آن صحبت می شد، نیز بی نتیجه مانده است. در طول یکسال گذشته و پس از فتح الفتوح خودخوانده توافقنامه ژنو که قرار بود، ساختمان تحریم ها را با ترک مواجه کند، اقساط بدهی غرب به ایران را باز هم باید از شرق تحویل می گرفتیم. ژاپن و چین و کره کشورهایی بودند که پولهای ما در حساب هایشان واریز می شد و باز ما بودیم و شرق. و البته در صنعت هواپیمایی که با تحریم گسترده مواجه شده بود، هم به جای تحویل گرفتن قطعات مورد نیاز هواپیما که صرفا جهت سلامت جان مسافران لازم داشتیم، کتاب آموزشی تحویل گرفتیم و به جای گرفتن دارو برای بیماران خاص، استامینوفن به ما دادند.

  168. A-B says:

    So, the Western Fascist-Imperialists seem to follow [almost] verbatim my ‘instruction’ (goingtotehran.com/the-next-rounds-of-nuclear-talks-with-iran-and-their-strategic-ramifications#comment-16225) which of course merely reflected their previous M/O; hence predicting what a one-trick-pony will do is not a great feat.

    Thus; another Scandinavian-for-all-weathers is chosen as ‘peace maker’ in case of Syria, which now, as anticipated, is conveniently forgotten. And since Russia and China did ‘definitely’ not vote for any UN-sanctioned intervention in Syria, the ‘US navy’ (or its surrogate) did in fact shoot down, albeit not a Syrian, but a civilian airliner over Ukraine; complete with the same allegation [by CNN] of the plane being packed with dead corpses before being shot down; the exact same despicable accusation the Savages directed against Iran when they shot down Iran Air 655 back in 1988. And as I ‘predicted’ the Israeli/Zio-scum cannot use the holocaust-card anymore as it is now universally replicated with the aw-shappad-card; with no ‘fear’ of being accused as being ‘anti-Semitic’. Of course, it was never about denying the Holocaust but that it is irrelevant. Heck, to please the Israeli scum, one could add another million or two to their alleged six, but that would at best be a passive-aggressive wishful thinking as it certainly wouldn’t solve the ‘Jewish Problem’ at hand. The solution is of course NO 2-STATE SOLUTION – NO ISRAEL – NO GENOCIDE meaning not only an end to the Israeli-scum’s genocide of the Palestinian but also that there won’t be any ‘genocide of the Jews’ as these anti-human savages want you to believe. Ideally, if true democracy is established, the Zio-Jews can’t act as ‘masters’ and when these sadistic psycho’s can’t get off they will leave; i.e. if they choose to be civilized they may stay but not in an abomination called ‘Israel’. (A-B, May 2011)

    K1-N

  169. fyi says:

    Jay says:

    August 3, 2014 at 9:22 am

    Yes, it is my position; the obverse of which is that there is no Muslim polity in which a Muslim is safe in his person, property, and namus.

    You find “halal” foods in up-scale food markets and super-markets in Paris; that attests to a large well-off integrated professional and commercial Muslim population in France – they are French but not Catholic and well-established.

  170. Amir says:

    Bussed-in Basiji says:
    August 3, 2014 at 6:35 am

    Thanks, you are very kind! I believe you have more experience in this field, and I’ll heed your caution.

  171. A-B says:

    And since I personally think it is much better to mock and use ‘strong language’ against the truly Arrogant lying-murdering-thieves (than this untasteful name-calling that is going on here) here is a mockery of these Zio-scum that was provoked by a post written by – what I assume – a Christian Zionist about how “god’s angels struck down 186000 Amalekites over night” for the sake of ‘Israel’. My point is also that the war of the West on the Rest, and Iran in particular, is indeed religious – in practically all the meanings of the [elusive] word. Actually, if I would be a true Atheist-Secular person – if such a creature really exists! – I would be furious of what a complete lie and hypocrisy the Western liberal democracy de facto is; raising the question why the ‘educated’, ‘secular’, ‘modern’, ‘liberal-democratic’ Westerners don’t mind this behavior of ‘ME’s ONLY democracy’ (LOL!) which they otherwise would call “religious” and “backward.”

    Here we go:

    Israeli Mystic: Remember when Rabbi Iziobabel wiped himself with his RIGHT hand? Israelites in dismay cried “Oy vey, end of the world is nigh” looking towards West. But the Anglo-Americans gave Israelites 60 shiny new fighter jets to terrorize their neighbours. And everything was dandy again.

    Rabbi Iziobabel: BLASPHEMY! [I used THE right hand. I’m LEFT-HANDED, you fool!] I should put a curse on you but [Talmudic clemency compels me] to pray for more Palestinians to be killed.

    K1-N

  172. Jay says:

    fyi says:
    August 3, 2014 at 10:14 am

    According to a poll released by the Arab American Institute in July 2014 Favorable attitudes have continued to decline from 35% in 2010 to 27% in 2014 for Muslims. Translation: only 73% of Americans do not have a favorable view of Islam.

    Mr. Pipes who writes material of this nature (below) has a large and growing following:

    “The Muslim population in this country is not like any other group, for it includes within it a substantial body of people—many times more numerous than the agents of Osama bin Ladin—who share with the suicide hijackers a hatred of the United States and the desire, ultimately, to transform it into a nation living under the strictures of militant Islam. ”

    A Pew research poll finds that more than 67% of Republicans simply hate muslims in America! Moreover, more than 2/3 of Americans think of Muslims on par with rapists.

    The practical reason that explains why muslims have not been burned at the stake in the US this far is?

    Legal force! What you rejected as “Jacobin” earlier. It is not the grand and unique culture of the West, rather it is legal norms imposed to maintain societal order – the same idea that you reject in other countries and communities.

    It seems to me that the argument is laid out to support a preconceived conclusion!

  173. A-B says:

    Clarification to the serious ‘joke’ (written in 2011) I posted above:
    Rabbi Iziobabel’s wiping himself with the wrong hand as an excuse to punish the Palestinians is equivalent to the case of those three Israelis that were NOT killed by the Palestinians. And not only did the Palestinians got punished for what they didn’t do, they got even more punished just because we’re dealing with fanatically deranged Talmudiacs!

    K1-N

  174. James Canning says:

    A-B,

    Are you claiming the Malaysian airliner shot down over eastern Ukraine last month, was downed by the “US Navy”?

  175. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    My understanding is that Russia continues to seek a deal between the P5+1 and Iran.

  176. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    You appear to argue that it makes no difference what reasons lie behind the thinking of a leader, when he makes decisions of war or peace, and that a later reassessment of the facts etc is of no consequence. I of course do not agree with you.

  177. Karl.. says:

    Another stupid comment by Cameron

    We need stronger NATO and we need to be harder against Russia
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/02/david-cameron-west-stronger-russia-borders

  178. A-B says:

    Mista’ J-jaimsu
    Solly, solly, mi no inglis. U (k)no(w) su-ll-o-gate?

  179. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Do you see it as a good thing, that Russia is providing heavy weapons to the separatists in eastern Ukraine?

  180. James Canning says:

    In his New York Times column today, Tom Friedman says Israel must accept Palestinian unity government of Hamas and Fatah. He is not holding his breath, however.

  181. Karl.. says:

    A-B

    Just ignore that brainwashed clown. Hes like a bot for his regime.

  182. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 3, 2014 at 1:39 pm

    No doubt it is a good thing – the last thing we need is for this planet to be dominated by the White Races of Europe again – like the world before 1914 – which would require the submission of the Russian Federation to NATO states.

    Let Axis Powers fight on 3 fronts – Near East against the Shia and all enemies of Israel, in the Far East against the Middle Kingdom, and now against the Russian Federation.

    All three are too far and too expensive to handle….sapping resources….

  183. A-B says:

    Karl,
    I’m ashamed to admit that I LOLed at my response to Mr. C. I mean, if he wants to play then let’s play, and at the same time (hopefully) make a point and have a little laugh, instead of engaging in poinless and lengthy discussion with a person one considers an ‘incurable, dishonest, fool’, etc. and be pissed off while at it.

  184. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Most Russians regard themselves as “white”. Not black, nor brown, nor yellow.

  185. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Do I take it you approve of the supplying of heavy weapons to the separatists in eastern Ukraine, by Russia?

  186. James Canning says:

    A-B,

    To clarify: you think the separatists in Ukraine downed the Malaysian airliner last month?

    Surely this is a “simple fact” Nico can help us with.

  187. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 3, 2014 at 5:53 pm

    “To clarify: you think the separatists in Ukraine downed the Malaysian airliner last month?

    Surely this is a “simple fact” Nico can help us with.”

    Surely the US is the biggest rogue state and thug in the world and proved that for decades in various wars they waged through invented resaons and lies.
    Be it in Afghanistan, Irak.
    That is simple fact.
    The US is always supporting the most backwards thug and are against REAL progressive societies abroad.
    Be it Lybia, Syria or Iran. Or for that matter in Ukraine with the kind of Svoboda.
    That is simple fact.

    The US are the most militarized and imperialist country in the world with heundred of bases here and there.
    Including in Japan, Germany, Italia, Spain, South Korea, etc, etc, etc and still are seeking more by the the day.
    That is simple fact.

    One could call the US a fascist country. Held by MIC and ploutocrat at the expense of world freedom.

    Now with such track record, well one can say that the US have not an ounce of credibility left.
    That is simple fact.

    Now you can draw your own conclusion about the credibility of the US claim regarding the downed flight above Ukraine.

  188. nico says:

    Canning,

    You can as well add that the US regime is the most repressive police state country adomistically at world.
    Suffice to see the US inmates prison rate compared to other countries…
    They are the first by far.

    Truly a fscist police state domistically and abroad.

  189. nico says:

    But you have the kind of fyi praising the US… Arf.
    The country of freedom… The the top most rate of prison inmates.

    Laughable.

    Surely they maybe many dealt marijuana or other substances … So what ? Who decided it should not be authorized ? … Abortion is permitted… But dealing substance not.

    Oh let me guess… the so called majority.

    Then what prison inmates rate in Iran ?

    Not so much as in the US.

    That is simple fact.

  190. nico says:

    The point is that US have money and military power.
    That is the only reason they are respected.
    Truly a Morally lost country.

  191. nico says:

    As a conclusion all fyi and Canning blattering is solid BS not supported by the most basic fact.
    But only ideologically driven and religious hubris.

  192. nico says:

    Canning,

    Surely Obama regrets all that !

    Aahaha.

    What policies did he implement to better the situation ?

    Nothing.

    Who cares what are his mental processes ?

    Truly BS from you as usual.

  193. A-B says:

    To clarify: The Ukrainian fascist regime acted as SURROGATE for the US Navy and downed the Malaysian civilian airliner by a SU-25 fighter jet, I’m sure under surveillance of NATO and/or US Navy present in the Black Sea. Apparently, the black box is being ‘analyzed’ – or rather doctored with – by the Brits! Well, isn’t that just swell!!

    K1-N

  194. nico says:

    A-B says:
    August 3, 2014 at 2:11 pm

    “I’m ashamed to admit that I LOLed at my response to Mr. C. I mean, if he wants to play then let’s play, and at the same time (hopefully) make a point and have a little laugh, instead of engaging in poinless and lengthy discussion with a person one considers an ‘incurable, dishonest, fool’, etc. and be pissed off while at it.”

    You understand now why I entertain exchanges with Canning.
    It provides a nice platform to restate the obvious with pretty harsh words as a wake call.
    Not for Canning or fyi who are lost cases.
    But maybe decent people will find the opportunity to take the red pill to take a look out of the Matrix.

    Maybe that hurts. Sure, truth hurts.

  195. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says:
    August 3, 2014 at 1:44 pm
    ” Tom Friedman . . . is not holding his breath, however.”

    More’s the pity.

  196. Fiorangela says:

    Kenneth Pollack, senior fellow at the Saban Center for Middle Eastern Policy at the Brookings Institution. former director of the center, former director of research at the center, former CIA analyst, in a Conference at the Middle East Policy Council, July 2014, in response to questions about nuclear negotiations with Iran:

    ” I think Khamenei is terrified of what he keeps calling the U.S. soft war against him. He believes, as several members of the panel have pointed out, that the U.S. is out to get him, OK? And he believes we’re actively trying to do so. But I think it’s also clear from a whole variety of different pieces of information and evidence that he believes we could do a lot more if we chose to do so. And so part of what he seems to be looking to do is to answer this question, can he turn off or at least mitigate the U.S. soft war?”

    http://www.mepc.org/hill-forums/obamas-foreign-policy-and-future-middle-east-0?transcript#

  197. fyi says:

    Fiorangela says:

    August 3, 2014 at 7:45 pm

    I do not want to be too harsh on Dr. Pollack; he helped the rise of Irani/Shia Power by doing his best as a propagandist to cause US to destroy the Ba’ath state in Iran.

    And I think in this instance he is wrong to think that Mr. Khamenei is terrified; he stood – like the proverbial mountain – when threatened by war and destruction 3 times since 2002 and did no blink.

    He is also wrong to try to reduce the civilizational, religious, political, and military and economic confrontation between the Axis Powers and Iran to one revolving around the character or policies of Mr. Khamenei.

    But a good propagandist, he has to try that – God forbid that he admits to a civilizational conformation with Shia Islam.

    And then, of course, is the fact that as he Jew he is unwilling to acknowledge the debt that Jews have to Iran.

    By the way, Mr. Khamenei is concerned about appeal of certain Western ideas to the Iranian people and their negative impact. And he has urged Iranian thinkers to think and develop their own responses to the West from within a Muslim and an Iranian perspective.

  198. Jay says:

    The gloriously unique culture of the Axis Powers bring you…

    “They also ensure that the national security state, busy killing people in 130 countries, acts in the exclusive interest of transnational capital. The fascist coup they engineered in Ukraine is only the most recent example.”

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/31/the-161-bankers-who-run-the-world/

    Pollack is a cog in an apparatus created exclusively for continued exploitation. He would not be where he is were it not for his compliant pronouncements.

  199. Rehmat says:

    “In a bid to legitimize Israel’s violence in Gaza, Washington continues a disturbing pattern of baselessly blaming Hamas,” Max Blumenthal wrote on August 2, 2014. He also added that to avoid further military humiliation, Israel is working on an exit strategy.

    On Friday, Netanyahu met his war cabinet. After 5-hour deliberation, they decided not to attend Cairo Ceasefire Forum arranged by their brotherly ‘criminals-in-arms’, American John Kerry and Egyptian military dictator Gen. Sisi – both Crypto Jews. They also decided to call-off further Israeli military aggression in Gaza. In other words, the situation in Israeli occupied Palestinian territories (Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem) will stay same as were before Israel “Unilaterally” invaded Gaza Strip 26 days ago.

    The Zionist regime has called its decision “Unilateral Stop of War”. What a “catchy” tile, don’t you think so? A war which was started by Israel “unilaterally” is now being stopped “unilaterally” by Israel.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/08/04/israel-defeated-in-gaza-looks-for-exit-strategy/

  200. Rehmat says:

    On Tuesday September 9, 1947, American newspaper The Argus reported the arrest of 16 members of Jewish terrorist groups Stern Gang and a US Army Air Force (USAAF) pilot Reginald Gilbert by the French police at the Toussus le-Noble airport near Versailles.

    The terrorist group was lead by a Ukrainian-born Rabbi Baruch Korff, chairman of the American Political Action Committee for Palestine and his private secretary Judith Rosenberger, a Hungarian-born US citizen. All of them were accused of trying to bomb the British Foreign Office building in London in order to force London to withdraw its forces from Palestine which the World Zionist movement had decided to turn into “for Jews only” Israel by armed terrorism.

    In 2003, the released British secret service MI5 documents also confirmed that there was a “Project for a air raid over London City, in the course of which leaflets were to be dropped in the name of Stern Gang, together with high-explosive bombs“.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/08/04/september-1947-when-jew-terrorists-tried-to-bomb-london/

  201. Karl.. says:

    Iran must stop being fooled by these corrupt arab dictators
    http://goo.gl/nVJcY5

  202. James Canning says:

    A-B,

    The Sunday Times (London) July 20th printed transcripts of the telephone conversations of the insurgents in Ukraine at the time they shot down the Malaysian airliner. You would do well to read those comments.

  203. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Obama says Tom Friedman is the most important pundit he reads. That Friedman calls for acceptance of a Palestinian unity government is significant.

  204. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    I understand Obama was reluctant to have the US intervene in Syria because he saw the chaos in Libya that resulted from US military intervention. And surely you are aware the US has not intervened directly in Syria and has refused to provide heaqvy weapons to the insurgents.

  205. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    A basic fact: the US has not directly intervened in the civil war in Syria. Correct?

  206. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    A basic fact: FYI welcomes the civil war in Ukraine. Correct?

  207. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    The huge US prison population is almost entirely a result of the ill-considered “war on drugs”.

  208. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    I take it you agree that insurgents in eastern Ukraine shot down the Malaysian airliner last month.

  209. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    Interesting claim you make, that Gaddafi’s Libya was a “progressive society”.

  210. Jay says:

    All,

    In light of the recent discussions, I think it is important to articulate further the following point.

    In my view, When one looks at comparative view of cultures and achievements, one must ask a holistic question.

    Isolating the good (or the bad) and using it as a basis of achievement (or decay) is deceptive.

    Judgement must be rendered as a whole! The same philosophical groundings that has yielded great technological achievements in the West has also yielded grotesque excesses and misery beyond imagination.

    The comparison of carrots vs. cucumbers that presupposes the superiority of the orange color is no comparison.

    For today’s sampling of this grotesque outcome, I invite you to:

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/08/04/cash-weapons-surveillance/

  211. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says:
    August 4, 2014 at 1:18 pm

    “Obama says Tom Friedman is the most important pundit he reads.”

    — At a panel discussion in NYC about a year ago the panel of academics and former diplomats that included Giandomenico Picco and historian Richard Bulliet arrived at the consensus that Obama’s foreign policy team was “incompetent at best.”

    –At a panel discussion at the Palestine Center in Washington, DC a week or two ago, most* of the panel arrived at the consensus that US foreign policy is “incoherent and incompetent.”

    *Ken Pollack was on the panel, so rationality was not unanimous.

  212. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 4, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    “I understand Obama was reluctant to have the US intervene in Syria because he saw the chaos in Libya that resulted from US military intervention. And surely you are aware the US has not intervened directly in Syria and has refused to provide heaqvy weapons to the insurgents.”

    Obama did not interven in Syria because Russia and Iran dettered the US.
    That is that that simple.

    “A basic fact: the US has not directly intervened in the civil war in Syria. Correct?
    James Canning says:

    Not correct, it is known and established fact that the US train militant and supply weapons. Need I point at US bases in Jordan ?
    The basic fact is that the US are leading NATO. And as such bear responsibility for their NATO client states. Like Turkey.
    The basic fact is that the US are after regime change in Syria and ousting Bashar.
    The basic fact is that there is no credible candidate to power in Syria more progressive than Bashar.
    And the basic conclusion is that the US are after geopolitical gain at Syrian population expense.
    Just like in Ukraine.
    Another basic conclusion (as the US motives imperialist, colonialist and ideologically driven) is that whatever the US claim, they are more than dubious.

    “A basic fact: FYI welcomes the civil war in Ukraine. Correct?”

    It is a war, ideological, by proxy or hot, whatever… And there are 2 sides. He is on the Liberal ideologs side with the good and the bad.
    As much as he points at other systems with the good and the bad.

    “The huge US prison population is almost entirely a result of the ill-considered “war on drugs”.”

    The fact is the US have the top rate prison population in the world by a WIDE margin.
    Clearly it proves that the USG is unable to manage socialy their population.
    Be it that reason, this reason or another one is of no importance.
    Everybody and everyone may find a reason.
    The bottom line is a POLICE STATE.
    The worst repressive on earth.

    “I take it you agree that insurgents in eastern Ukraine shot down the Malaysian airliner last month.”

    I made my point. Take what you will. Whatever. I do not care. you lost case.

  213. James Canning says:

    Spiegel.de today has an interesting report on Israel’s spying on John Kerry last year, during the Israel/Palestine discussions.

  214. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 4, 2014 at 1:31 pm

    “Interesting claim you make, that Gaddafi’s Libya was a “progressive society”.”

    Typical claim, eocons, Liberal doctrinaire and other extremists.
    Typical claim from the Humanitarian imperialists.
    Typical from the arrogant false progressive idiot.
    Truly the same claim as Bernard Henry Levy and all the warmongers.
    Typical claim of the ignorant fool or the satanic propagandist.

    They are so many in the west that I can only thank you for the opportunity to elaborate on that topic.

    It is well known in politics (to paraphrase), that the choice is not between good or evil. But the choice is between evil and less evil.

    As such in Lybia, specificaly, the choice was between Gaddafi and the Salafists.
    And yes, Gaddafi was much more progressive.

    As usual the US and in this case Obama made his choice knowingly.
    Just like in Ukraine with the nazi SVOBODA.

    Truly a terrorist state. The like of Israel.

  215. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    The US obviously could have declared a “no-fly zone for all of Syria, and overthrown the Assad government. Obama wisely chose not to do so. Correct?

    I of course deplore the vicious civil war in Syria, and I have noted that is to some degree is a regrettable outgrowth of Iran’s expansion of its nuclear programme in 2010.

  216. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    To be clear, you see no problem with Russia’s promotion of a vicious civil war in Ukraine. Correct?

  217. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    YOU said that Libya was a “progressive society” prior to the ill-considered western military intervention. In some ways, this is true. And the western military intervention was a tragic blunder, in my view.

  218. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    The sad truth about Libya, in my judgment, is that Nicolas Sarkozy got overly enthusiastic in his response to entreaties from his good friend, Bernard-Henri Levy, for French military intervention in Libya. France had good relations with Gaddafi, as I am sure you know.

  219. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 4, 2014 at 2:14 pm

    “The US obviously could have declared a “no-fly zone for all of Syria, and overthrown the Assad government. Obama wisely chose not to do so. Correct?”

    The US had no means to impose a no-fly zone without great risk of losses or drawing Russia and Iran in a much larger war.
    The US were deterred.

    “To be clear, you see no problem with Russia’s promotion of a vicious civil war in Ukraine. Correct?

    Any source, proof or basic fact other than Obama & co more than dubious claim ?
    Anyway, the US engineered and supported the coup in Ukraine by Nazis.
    They are the one to blame.

    “YOU said that Libya was a “progressive society” prior to the ill-considered western military intervention. In some ways, this is true. And the western military intervention was a tragic blunder, in my view.”

    My view is that it was another tragic CRIME in line with the US/NATO and stooges (including UK and France) history of atrocity in the las few decades in the region.

  220. Jay says:

    One must have enough wits to be able to tell the difference between publish show and actual intent!

    Revealed intelligence now shows clearly that Mr. Obama and his UK lackeys say one thing and mean another.

    The fact that some people refuse to accept public pronouncements as “showmanship” means they are either a tool or a fool!

  221. Karl.. says:

    A-B

    IMo there is no point and he should be banned, he have been going on like this for years now, no one benefits from this other than him and his demand for attention.

  222. BiBiJon says:

    James Canning says to A-B:
    August 4, 2014 at 1:15 pm

    “The Sunday Times (London) July 20th printed transcripts of the telephone conversations of the insurgents in Ukraine at the time they shot down the Malaysian airliner. You would do well to read those comments.”

    That augustest of the Murdoch rags, the Times of London, is the go to place indeed. Murdoch, whose ex-wife emailed adoringly of Rupert’s daughter’s God father, Tony Blair’s “good body”, used to be in the business of Iran nuclear scare mongering.

    see ;truth-out.org/archive/component/k2/item/87398:us-intelligence-found-iran-nuke-document-was-forged

    However, on flight 17, see http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/07/29/former-us-intel-officers-warn-president-obama-on-us-actions-against-russia/

  223. fyi says:

    Nasser says:

    August 4, 2014 at 3:04 pm

    Rest assured that he will, as Mr. Ataune has observed, US & EU have gone too far to back track now.

    They had a choice which was to dismantle their Godfather-like geopolitical protection racket and resume a normal existence.

    They decided not to; back in 1991 when NATO should have been dismantled.

  224. James Canning says:

    BiBiJon,

    Are you trying to suggest the transcripts printed by the Sunday Times, of the telephone conversations of Ukrainian insurgents at the time they shot down the Malaysian airliner, are falsified?

  225. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    France and Britain brought the US into the attack on Libya. Obama wanted to stay out.

    You appear to support Russia’s promotion of civil war in Ukraine. Correct?

    The US could have imposed a “no-fly” zone on Syria. I am glad this did not transpire, obviously.

  226. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    I think some of those who pushed Obama to intervene directly in Syria hoped it would lead to a US attack on Iran. What you see as “deterrence” was in fact the object, of these people.

  227. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 4, 2014 at 5:07 pm

    “France and Britain brought the US into the attack on Libya. Obama wanted to stay out.”
    I make no distinction between the Empire masters and stooges/traitors at the head of France.
    As for Britain they are part of the Anglo American Colonial empire.

    “You appear to support Russia’s promotion of civil war in Ukraine. Correct?”

    There is no legitimate Power in Ukraine right now.
    Thus it is preposterous and partisan to claim one to be legitimate and the other not at current juncture.
    Or one to promote civil war and the other not.

    The former legitimate regime has been toppled by US plot.
    So it is for sure US very crime to have started all that process.

    “The US could have imposed a “no-fly” zone on Syria. I am glad this did not transpire, obviously.”

    The US could have tried to.
    But with regional and world war as a consequence.
    Whether they would have been successfull is another story.
    I mean, forcing decision in the Syrian conflict with direct military help from the US has been averted.
    And Assad is winning against the US stated objectives.
    As a basic and logical conclusion, the US have been deterred, blocked, frustrated by Russia and Iran. Put it the way you like best.

    “I think some of those who pushed Obama to intervene directly in Syria hoped it would lead to a US attack on Iran. What you see as “deterrence” was in fact the object, of these people.”

    For that to be true, Obama would need to draw a clear policy.
    He never did.
    He is spineless and he will go the way the wind push stronger.
    Does that make him a great man ?
    No.
    Does that excuse him for his crimes ?
    No.

  228. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    I take it you make no claims of understanding the subtleties of international affairs.

    You appear to have forgotten there was an election in Ukraine and Russia said it was fair.

  229. Jay says:

    nico says:
    August 4, 2014 at 6:06 pm

    Obama is not spineless, he is a very believable liar! So are the leaders in UK and Canada. Why, you ask?

    The power of evidence!
    Read the latest piece by Glen Greenwald I linked to above to know (not guess) that Obama is acting. They are not spineless, they know how to lie on camera.

    Don’t bother with James, he already knows this but can’t let us know that he knows.

  230. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 4, 2014 at 7:30 pm

    “I take it you make no claims of understanding the subtleties of international affairs.
    You appear to have forgotten there was an election in Ukraine and Russia said it was fair.”

    Elections ? Under what constitutional order ?
    The previous constitional order has been shattered by nazis supported and paid by the US.
    They took power and organized elections for themselves.
    But In such conditions there is no legitimacy for the Svoboda to enforce a constitution they themselve broke.

    There also have been votes for independence and autonomy from eastern region and Crimea.
    And they are no less legitimate than your so called Svoboda and US sponsored “elections”.

    Maybe the MSM propaganda about the new ukrainian “President” and “Elected government” succeded to make you believe in some kind of legitimacy.
    There is not.

    What is needed is national concord.
    Not the kind provided by the chocolate king.
    Russia made suggestion to find a natilnal concord. Through federalism and more autonomous region in the frame of a united Ukraine.
    All those suggestions were shoned by the Svoboda and the west.

    As for your so called international affairs expertize… You can roll it and shove it up your ass.
    Just like all those MSM so called expertize and all the US presidents expertize in last few decades.
    Yep, up your ass.

  231. nico says:

    Jay says:
    August 4, 2014 at 10:07 pm

    “Obama is not spineless, he is a very believable liar !”

    As I said previously. That is not thay much important.
    Whether he is not up to the task or a lying criminal.
    What is important is the result.
    Who cares about Mister Obama thought processes ?
    In truth Nobody or maybe only those looking for excuses.

  232. Rehmat says:

    President Rouhani: Israel is committing ‘Genocide in Gaza’

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/08/05/president-rouhani-israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza/

  233. Fiorangela says:

    The Gaza massacre is about gas. As is the slaughter in Syria and the renewed scourging of Iraq http://www.voltairenet.org/article184806.html

    Veterans Today posted an article (badly) translated from the French that claimed that the leader of the ISIL caliphate is a Mossad-trained asset. It would not be without precedent.

  234. BiBiJon says:

    James Canning says:
    August 4, 2014 at 5:04 pm

    Are you suggesting the corporate media in general, and the Sunday Times (London) in particular are independent, objective, truth tellers?

    I think if there had been conclusive evidence as to “who did it”, then such evidence would not be passed on to a Murdoch owned news paper. The evidence would first do the rounds in Parliamentary committees under penalty of perjury.

    Further the choice of format, i.e. easily doctored transcript, is highly suspect.

  235. Karl.. says:

    Israeli official calls for concentration camps in Gaza and ‘the conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715466/Israeli-official-calls-concentration-camps-Gaza-conquest-entire-Gaza-Strip-annihilation-fighting-forces-supporters.html#ixzz39VyWBAQg

    Personally I have no words left.

  236. kooshy says:

    So much for Tarita Parsi and Mr. Marashi (supposedly X American official) and their so called (National Iranian American council) independence and impartiality perusing national interests of whom? Iran’s, sure

    Mr. Marashi and his boss should not continue and should stop to claiming they are lobbying for National interest of Iran in US, as we all know they clearly as far back as 2009 elections with their full support for US/ UK backed color revolution commonly known as green movement instigated by foreign interest to overthrow elected government of Iran have shown that they are paid and supported by foreign interest rather that of Iran’s.

    “The Islamic State’s rise was partly Iran’s fault for doing too little to rein in the sectarian impulses of its ally Maliki, said Reza Marashi, a former Iran desk officer at the U.S. State Department who is now the director of research for the National Iranian American Council. “Iran overplayed its hand. They overreached,” he said. “By seeking to advance its interests with its Iraqi allies at the expense of other foreign and domestic players, look at what’s happened: the Maliki government helped give rise to ISIS.”

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/03/uk-iraq-security-iran-insight-idUKKBN0G30GG20140803

  237. yk says:

    Karl
    Not to worry it is better said than done the Zionists know how to make noise than out to fight, look how they got bloody nose from their recent genocidal war, to say they face an outgunned opposition would be an understatement they face a crudely equipped opposition and what did they achieve. Yeah they killed a lot of civilians (which is what they know how to do best) but at what cost? They lost their strategic edge, the populace of some of the nation’s that used to give them blind support are now openly speaking out against them and even some of their officials, even if its just for political expediency, all these without achieving any of their stated goals before and after the war. And history is on the side of Palestine, while the Palestinians are ready to pay the ultimate price to achieve their right, an intrinsic victory of humanity over the forces of evil, the Zionists will never experience this as they will continue to cringe in the face of resistance and make a run for it at the first opportunity because that is the nature of occupiers.

    Now they are in Cairo forced to sit across the resistance to negotiate, a resistance they do not recognise. If this is not a strategic loss I don’t know what it is.

    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13231-israeli-minister-we-lost-a-strategic-battle-in-gaza

  238. yk says:

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/05/374120/75-of-israeli-settlers-leave-homes/

    Just like the cowards they are, what do you expect from children and women killers. Pathetic.

  239. Karl.. says:

    yk

    Sorry but I dont agree, this is what israel been doing since 1948, massacres after massacres, they held talk with resistance before (FATAH etc, well today fatah is no resistance but then). Nothing will change.
    Not to mention the egyptian-talks is led by tony “war criminal and islamophobic” blair.

  240. yk says:

    Karl

    You have a point but you are forgetting something important CHANGE. You cannot deny the fact that the way the resistance in Gaza fought this time shows a marked difference from the past in terms of weapons and strategy. This is not a war between equals but a war between a occupiers and the occupied, I recognised the fact that we have differences of ideology which is a great influence on the way we see the world. For me without any exaggeration Hamas won this round judging by all objective standard because Israel fail to achieve any of its stated goals and remember a ceasefire was declared with Israel complying with the demand of the resistance for the ceasefire to be accepted which is for the Israeli forces to be withdraw from Gaza.

    We now wait for the political outcome with the resistance demand that the blockade be lifted. Any lifting of the blockade even partially is a victory for the resistance and after that to expect things to go back to former status is to live in a fools paradise even by the Zionists standard.

    Now the question is will Israel agree to lift the blockade? If the resistance played their cards right I believe it will be lifted, atleast partially.

  241. Karl.. says:

    yk

    “for me without any exaggeration Hamas ”

    No no no.
    Israel won again, they agreed to ceasefire after they bombed Gaza to 2000 deaths, the whole Gaza is ruined, no Hamas didnt won.
    Israel goal was to terrorize the palestinians and bomb some tunnels. Israel never agree to ceasefire it they dont benefit from it.
    Besides blockade is still there so no Hamas didnt won.

  242. James Canning says:

    Kooshy,

    Would Iran even be able to “rein in” Nouri al-Maliki’s “sectarian impulses?

  243. James Canning says:

    BiBiJon,

    I very much doubt the Sunday Times printed “doctored” transcripts of the telephone conversations of Ukrainian separatists, recorded at the time the Malaysian airliner was shot down last month. I will alert you if I hear anything suggesting this happened.

    Is it your view that the insurgents shot down the civilian airliner by mistake? This fact is established by the printed transcripts.

  244. James Canning says:

    BiBiJon,

    I think the Sunday Times printed the transcripts to show that the shooting down of the civilian airliner clearly was a mistake, by the insurgents in eastern Ukraine. The transcripts also demonstrate Russia supplied the missiles, but not the entire operating system.

  245. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    I continue to be fascinated by your intense admiration for simplistic thinking, regarding the making of foreign policy. How Obama arrived at given decisions obviously is important. Consider, in that regard, how George W. Bush was duped by liar neocon warmongers.

  246. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    Perhaps a federal system would be a good thing for Ukraine. But Russia’s promotion of a vicious civil war in Ukraine is not a good thing, even if you think it is.

  247. James Canning says:

    Jay,

    Was Obama “spineless” when he failed to stop Israel’s growth of its illegal colonies of Jews in the West Bank? Or was he knuckling under to cruel political reality, including the great financial power of Jews and commensurate influence in US politics?

  248. James Canning says:

    Jay & Nico,

    Simple fact: Russia said the elections in Ukraine were fair. Correct?

  249. yk says:

    Karl

    Please read what I wrote in whole. Killing defenceless women and children doesn’t create victory, check news updates majority of Gazans continue to support the resistance action during the war in spite of the Zionists genocidal acts this in itself is a failure for Israel because they failed to alienate the resistance from the masses. Look I’ve monitored this forum for sometime to know how you’ll react when it concerns Israel’s military capabilities so I won’t drag this issue with you knowing how you will continue to respond no matter what. Yes they can kill en mass but very miserable at achieving their goals.

    And as for winning I pointed out to you that negotiations is still ongoing in Cairo and Karl what do you think of the number of the Israeli army killed in action and the Israelis in the kibbutz that did not return even though the resistance choosed not to kill the Zionists civilians because it doesn’t amount to victory from their ideological standpoint? See, the occupied being humane and achieving its goals at the same time in the face of unwarranted genocide. I repeat we have different ideology which makes us see the world in different light.

    If terrorising the Palestinians was part of the Zionists goal they also failed because even in the complacent West Bank the Palestinians demonstrated leading to scores of fatalities and even Mahmoud Abbas was left with no choice but to support the resistance, so yes Israel succeeded in terrorising the Palestinians into uniting for a common cause.

    Please Karl it would help if you can post some updates evidence from credible cites where Israeli leaders said they just wanted to bomb some tunnels.

  250. James Canning says:

    Djavad Salehi-Isfahani has an excellent piece at Lobelog.com this week: “Iran’s economy after one year of Rouhani”.

  251. Karl.. says:

    yk

    “Killing defenceless women and children doesn’t create victory, ”

    Actually this is what israel wants, likewise 9/11 was a victory for the terrorists.
    They wanted to kill these people they wanted to create this mess, just like Israel.
    In fact google “The Dahiya Doctrine”.

    Israel said from the beginning that they want to target tunnels, there are plenty sources on can google.

    If you ask the people of Gaza you really believe they would say that they won?

  252. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 5, 2014 at 1:22 pm

    “I continue to be fascinated by your intense admiration for simplistic thinking, regarding the making of foreign policy. How Obama arrived at given decisions obviously is important. Consider, in that regard, how George W. Bush was duped by liar neocon warmongers.”

    Not true.

    First when one assumes a mantle such as the US presidency, one bear moral and principled responsibility beyond than one small self. Whether you like it or not.

    Second one has always choices to make. As an example a president can adress tge nation on principled a clear policies and gain adherence of the brick layers to counterweight the lobbies. As anotyer example a prezident can resign explaining why if he is forced to make choice not in line with his moral and principled duties.

    As a matter of fact Obama endorsed knowingly all the crimes committed under his term.

    And politician must be held accountable on fact and figures. Not intentions.
    That is basic political principle.

    Your point is useless and truly the bed of all degeneration.

  253. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 5, 2014 at 1:31 pm

    “Simple fact: Russia said the elections in Ukraine were fair. Correct?”

    Basic fact : the election is not the issue, the constitution is.
    Whether you like it or not.

  254. James Canning says:

    Geoff Dyer had an interesting report in the Financial Times yesterday, focusing on Victoria Nuland and her neocon credentials. (And the neocon credentials of her husband, Robert Kagan.) Nuland’s activities in Kiev prior to the coup are touched on. Some of us doubt very much the wisdom of having Nuland in her current position.

  255. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    You appear to argue that armed insurgency is the correct response by people who dislike the constitution of a country. Correct?

  256. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    George W. Bush’s catastrophic failure as a president stems in part from his moral certitude, and his pronounced simplistic “thinking”. “You’re either for us or against us”, and such nonsense. He was duped by liar neocon warmongers. Spectacular incompetence of Condoleezza Rice helped the dupers.

  257. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 5, 2014 at 2:17 pm

    “You appear to argue that armed insurgency is the correct response by people who dislike the constitution of a country. Correct?”

    Not correct.
    First the west by plotting the Svoboda coup (or armed insurgency) in the first place triggered the following events.
    You are the typical talmudic sophist by blaming the victim.

    Second, it is well known fact that Ukraine is fractured ethnically and culturaly between pro western west-Ukraine and pro Russia eastern Ukraine.
    From the fall of the soviet union, the Ukraine governement had the responsibility to balance their policy between east and west in order to keep domestic peace and protect the country vital interests.

    The US plot in Ukraine broke the balance with ensuing consequences in order to get geopolitical gain at the expense of the Ukrainian population.

    Thus it is the US crime that is the cause of the situation.
    Russia offered a political solution to calm down the situation by respecting the ethnic and cultural differences while keeping east and west Ukraine united.

    To not avail. The US sponsored regime in the east does not wqnt a balanced policy.
    In Ukraine, the US and Svoboda are the extremists.

    Not the other way arround.

  258. yk says:

    Karl

    If you read my response I made it clear in knew how you will respond. Nevertheless thanks for your time.

  259. nico says:

    As for Crimea it has been Russian and soviet territory for centuries.
    It has been Ukrainian for the last 2 decades or so following the soviet union fall due to paperwork and administratived BS.
    Ethnically, culturally and historicaly this region is Russian.
    I am not shocked that Crimea chose by self determination to come back to Russia and Russia tl accept that.

  260. James Canning says:

    Robert Parry of Consortium News has an interesting piece up, on the shooting-down of the Malaysian airliner: “Flight 17 shoot-down scenario shifts”. Available at Readersupportednews.org.

  261. Karl.. says:

    yk

    Thank you for making clear that you made clear how I would respond in your comment that you made clear how I would respond. Thank you for making that clear.

  262. Karl.. says:

    nico

    The clown is worried Scotland will leave the union.
    But its interesting the Falklands belong to the UK and he defends that of course.

  263. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    If Crimea is recognized as part of Russia, this is fine with me.

  264. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    I think the finger of blame can be pointed toward Victoria Nuland, to some extent. For current problems in Ukraine.

    I disagree that civil war in the appropriate response when a segment of the population of a country has issues with the constitution of that country.

  265. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    The people of the Falklands do not want to be part of Argentina. Surely you are aware of that fact.

  266. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 5, 2014 at 6:06 pm

    “I think the finger of blame can be pointed toward Victoria Nuland, to some extent. For current problems in Ukraine.”

    Was Nuland fired ? No.
    Did the US double down after the coup ? Yes
    Thus it is abviously a crafted and approved US policy.
    No need to dind excuse… Again.

    “I disagree that civil war in the appropriate response when a segment of the population of a country has issues with the constitution of that country.”
    You should blame Svoboda and the US in the first plage when they ploted the anticonstitutional coup.
    Simple, isn’t it ? Surely too simplistic for you to comprehend.

  267. Karl.. says:

    nico

    The clown does it again.

    Falkland going to UK: Good!
    Crimea going to Russia: Bad!

    He’s too brainwashed.

  268. nico says:

    Canning

    See politician resign when they do not agree.
    Just like Obama would have done if not in agreemdnt with US lobbies so called pressure.
    No need for excuse.
    There is none other than in your imagination.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-05/first-british-minister-resigns-over-morally-indefensible-gaza-policy

  269. nico says:

    “Vladimir Putin signs historic $20bn oil deal with Iran to bypass Western sanctions”

    It seems the situation is heating up in Ukraine.
    With consequences.
    Russia announced a deal with Iran today but retracted and stated that an annoucement will be for tomorow…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/11014604/Vladimir-Putin-signs-historic-20bn-oil-deal-with-Iran-to-bypass-Western-sanctions.html

  270. BiBiJon says:

    Don’t miss http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140806/jsp/nation/story_18691973.jsp#.U-GO00gmzPM

    Quote:

    The SCO has informed New Delhi that it plans to approve documents making India a full member at a September 11-12 summit in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, senior officials have told The Telegraph.

    Iran, Pakistan and Mongolia will join India as new members of the grouping, now made up of Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

  271. BiBiJon says:

    Is there a greenhouse big enough for all the potted plants?
    ====================================================

    First we had the Fortaleza agreement to establish the BRICS New Development Bank. Then we hear Russia buying Iran’s oil, and now we have SCO deciding to make India, Pakistan and Iran as full members.

    Kaveh jan last year had good things to say about Iran joining the SCO

    http://rt.com/op-edge/iran-sco-membership-summit-nato-821/

    As the edifice of the “new world order” crumbles showing the underlying illusions to have been LSD induced, a really new order is very much taking shape.

    Iranian delegation will be in NY in September. POTUS should seriously consider meeting with POIRI at that time, and at that place. Kerry should be GoingToTehran before Christmas.

  272. BiBiJon says:

    Don’t miss http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/08/03/national/saudia-calls-in-pakistani-troops-for-protection-against-isis/

    Try reading to the sound of Sheik yerbouti ;youtube.com/watch?v=LmLMJRFM21w

  273. Jay says:

    Once again, evidence that Muslims are NOT safe in their persons, in their property and in the honor of their womenfolk anywhere because of Axis Powers.

    “The top five U.S. cities represented on the main watchlist for “known or suspected terrorists” are New York; Dearborn, Mich.; Houston; San Diego; and Chicago. At 96,000 residents, Dearborn is much smaller than the other cities in the top five, suggesting that its significant Muslim population—40 percent of its population is of Arab descent, according to the U.S. Census Bureau—has been disproportionately targeted for watchlisting. Residents and civil liberties advocates have frequently argued the Muslim, Arab and Sikh communities in and around Dearborn are unfairly targeted by invasive law enforcement probes, unlawful profiling, and racism.

    “To my knowledge, there have been no Muslims in Dearborn who have committed acts of terrorism against our country,” Dawud Walid, executive director of the Michigan chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, told The Intercept. Walid added that the high concentration of Dearborn residents in the watchlisting system “just confirms the type of engagement the government has with our community—as seeing us as perpetual suspects.””

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/08/05/watch-commander/

  274. M. Ali says:

    Jay says:

    August 5, 2014 at 11:59 pm

    To some people, apparently, Muslims are safe in their persons, in their property and in the honor of their womenfolk as long as they abide to western overlords. Interestingly, this arguments are not new. Slave owners frequently would claim that black Africans had the best living situation being under them, because they’d argue, they were not living among the cannibals and heathens in Africa, so lucky them, and also, as a slave, they were gauranteed food, shelter, and safety, and in old age, would be taken care of, unlike the free black people, who go hungry when unemployed and in old age, would not be given jobs.

    Here is some quotes from one Pro Slavery Argument in 1857,

    [Compared Free Blacks to Slaves] “When the day’s labor is ended, he is free, but is overburdened with the cares of family and household, which make his freedom an empty and delusive mockery. But his employer is really free, and may enjoy the profits made by others’ labor without a care or a trouble as to their well-being. The Negro slave is free, too, when the labors of the day are over, and free in mind as well as body, for the master provides food, raiment [clothing], house, fuel, and everything else necessary to the physical well-being of himself and family. The master’s labors commence just when the slave’s end.”

    “The Negro slaves of the South are the happiest, and, in some sense, the freest people in the world. The children and the aged and infirm work not at all, and yet have all the comforts and necessaries of life provided for them. They enjoy liberty, because they are oppressed neither by care nor labor. The women do little hard work, and are protected from the despotism of their husbands by their masters. The Negro men and stout boys work, on the average, in good weather, not more than nine hours a day. The balance of their time is spent in perfect abandon. Besides, they have their Sabbaths and holidays.”

    “We do not know whether free laborers ever sleep. They are fools to do so, for whilst they sleep, the wily and watchful capitalist is devising means to ensnare and exploit them. The free laborer must work or starve. He is more of a slave than the Negro because he works longer and harder for less allowance than the slave and has no holiday, because the cares of life with him begin when its labors end. He has no liberty, and not a single right.”

    “Free laborers have not a thousandth part of the rights and liberties of Negro slaves. Indeed, they have not a single right or a single liberty, unless it be the right or liberty to die.”

    Can you just imagine certain Iranians being transported to those times and comfortably making such arguments?

  275. A-B says:

    Continuing exposing the barbaric nature of Israeli-Zio scum, and its supporters, here’s a take on their so-called pathology:

    If a person is called a moron because he behaves like one but he considers this as an attack on his race, makes HIM a RACIST MORON. If the race and creed (Semitic and Judaism) he thinks is attacked is not even his, makes the racist moron also DELUSIONAL. If he thinks that people’s resenting his behavior means they want to kill him, makes the delusional, racist moron also AGGRESSIVE, SUICIDAL and PARANOID. (A-B 2011)

    HOWEVER …
    Analogizing the sick behavior of an individual with the behavior of a ‘state’ is faulty. Because if an individual would be THIS sick, a society or community would by the power of the NATURAL inertia it provides (through culture-religion-law) render him dysfunctional and/or check his anti-social behavior. Yet, the state of ‘Israel’ IS functional but is also ALLOWED to be anti-social (if not anti-human) by the ‘international community’ which puts lethal weapons in its hands to commit atrocity after atrocity while rendering Law and Civilization ‘dysfunctional’ by giving it immunity and impunity. So, Israel’s is not a case of ‘natural’ human pathology, it is an UNNATURAL sickness implanted in heart of civilization; it is organized savagery. It is EVIL. This is not the case of Fall of Man as Israel and its vile supporters should NOT be considered Humans. Exactly like the equally unnatural cretins, the rabid ISIS, are not humans to be called Muslims … or Buddhists or Hindus (thanks for the tip, Mr. C)

    The question is: why Israel have enjoyed and still enjoys this irrational support from European-American-Russian governments and populace?

    K1-N

  276. nico says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXpFfrtuvgo
    Very interesting video.
    Interview of a former al qaida head.
    Testimony and news about the finacing, alliance and war aims of ISIL and other extremists.
    From the 80s to today.
    In arabic with French and English subtext.

  277. M. Ali says:

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/04/brave-israeli-woman-asks-does-the-war-in-gaza-make-me-look-fat/

    A blogger at Times of Israel wrote a opinion piece about how, poor her, she was probably gaining weight from the war, which can only come from a culture that has been so removed from the idea that their country is routinely killing the native of the land. The original blog has apparently been removed.

    It has lines like, “The answers varied, but most came to the conclusion that war is bad for your waistline.”

    Which, one wonders, are the Gaza residents also having such worries?

  278. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    Are you claiming Obama did not want to block the growth of the illegal colonies in the West Bank?

  279. nico says:

    James Canning says:
    August 6, 2014 at 1:59 pm

    “Are you claiming Obama did not want to block the growth of the illegal colonies in the West Bank?”

    No he did not.
    The US more financial, material and political support to Israel each new year.
    I do not call that trying to prevent something.
    I call it full ans unconditional support.

    That is basic and obvious fact that cannot denied by blattering, weak rhetoric and talmudic sophistry of yours.

  280. A-B says:

    The Saudi Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz Al Ash-Sheikh issues Fatwa against solidarity marches with Gaza (www.moroccoworldnews.com/2014/08/135880/saudi-grand-mufti-issues-fatwa-against-solidarity-marches-with-gaza). The hellish creature is also General President for SCIENTIFIC RESEARCHES(!!) and Fatwa. And, the ISIS dogs stand firmly by the equally savage Zio’s while they massacre Palestinians, accusing the Gazans for the ‘deadly sin’ of fighting for Palestine and Gaza and not for their shitty Bolshevik/Communist project (supported by you know jew, … I mean who). Meanwhile in the Netherlands the ISIS dogs are ALLOWED to chant “Kill the Jews”!! Yes, this is what is called ‘blow back’; The people of the Middle East are experiencing the worst imaginable type of REAL terror from the West, while ‘poor’ Westerners have to endure this type of ‘blow backs’, which only serve to make their populace more readily accept their (democratic) government’s policy of butchering the people of ME. They are not hard to convince, I’m sure!

    K1-N

  281. BiBiJon says:

    M. Ali says:
    August 6, 2014 at 7:08 am

    I was wondering what accounts for the near unanimity of Israelis to be for slaughtering Gazans, even more genocidal than what Netanyahu felt he could get away with.

    Well, I think when you behave so barbarically towards the ‘other’, then surely members of your tribe see the psychotic potential that could confront any peacenik dissenter. That leads to some self-censorship, which then leads to a perceived pro-war majority, which accentuates the sense of living in a psychotic society, prompting more self-censorship, etc, etc.

    At some point, it is no longer self-censorship, or a ‘perceived’ majority. People will go along to get along and will demonstrate their fealty to the majoritarian view, until it becomes their own view.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/08/05/death_of_sympathy_israel_gaza_liberals_netanyahu_hawks?wp_login_redirect=0

    To those who insist Israel won by dint of murdering hundreds of children so to teach Obama not to dare recognize a Palestenian unity government ever again, I say them ‘victorious’ Israelis will now have to live among themselves, crazy wide-eyed dripping with blood of innocents. Happy living! Watch that waistline!

  282. Fiorangela says:

    VOA interviews Peter Eisner about his book, The Italian Letter, concerning the frauds underlying the Bush-Cheney decision to wage war against Iraq.

    Eisner cites Sir Dearlove, then-head of British intelligence, as being complicit in the fraud.

    If I recall correctly, Ron Suskind interviewed Dearlove who narrated the extraordinary measures British intelligence took to obtain documents from a highly placed Iraqi defense official in exile in Jordan. Those documents indicated that Saddam was not developing nuclear weapons. iirc, the official flew to Washington to present the information directly to Bush officials. Condi Rice refused to use the information; it was shelved.

    Which journalist is telling us what really happened?

  283. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Stupefying incompetence on the part of Condoleezza Rice was an essential component of the conspiracy to set up the US invasion of Iraq.

    You might enjoy Robert Hunter’s comments at Lobelog.com this week, on the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. He found a draft of the resolution that was written before the incident (such as it was) took place.

  284. James Canning says:

    The Financial Times reported today that Saudi Arabia is giving Lebanese army $1 billion, in effort to keep Isis out of the country. ($3 billion previously pledged, for French weapons.)

  285. James Canning says:

    Nico,

    I think Obama personally would have liked to stop the growth of the illegal settlements in the West Bank, but he did not see this a politically feasible.

    You may recall that Franklin Roosevelt wanted to provide military aid to Britain (during Second World War) long before he felt able to do so politically.

  286. James Canning says:

    At Readersupportednews.org today, Steve Weissman has a fine piece on Michael McFaul and efforts by some aggressive Americans to undermine Putin.

  287. Nasser says:

    A miserable defeated man urges another to also just accept defeat

    http://carnegie.ru/eurasiaoutlook/?fa=56325

  288. James Canning says:

    The Times ( London) says Israel must end the occupation of the West Bank. Leader July 28th: “The Israeli occupation of the West Bank has never been sustainable without unacceptable consequences both for Palestinians and Israelis.”

  289. James Canning says:

    Nasser,

    In the piece you just linked, Akio Kawato claims there is a “risk” to Russia, that Ukraine “might be lost to Nato”. . .

    Germany apparently has offered in effect a guarantee to Russia that Ukraine will not become a member of Nato.

  290. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 7, 2014 at 5:14 pm

    “…Germany apparently has offered in effect a guarantee to Russia ..”

    Nonsense; a semi-sovereign state – a satrapy as it were – of the Mad King is in no position to offer anything to Russia.

    I cannot believe the contempt & hubris in such an offer to Russia by Germany or even US; be Russians fools or stupid to fall for this gimmick for a second time?

  291. kooshy says:

    Dr. Jafarian’s newest blog post is very interesting specially his recommendation to shieh religious and political leaders, I agree with him is very dangerous if shieh leaders become careless and fall in to a sectarian war trap. Especially when Iranian, Syria, and Iraq are now fighting western terrorist proxies in their region, and in same time they are in an economic war with westerners colonialists. However if the new economic and proxy war with Russia in Eastern Europe continue to become the prime economic and security threat to the west, then we can expect that a situation comparable to that of the rapprochement to China becomes more of interest and necessity to the west/US. As a result a favorable rapprochement with more incentives and an accommodation of Iran’s international rule becomes one of few international and regional choices for the US if agreeable and available. Which considering US ‘ west unconditional regional policies makes such an offer not very appealing to grand Iranian/ Shieh regional image. Like the same why and way the grand ayatollah Sistani has always refused to meet any Americans.

    طبعا برای اینها درستی و نادرستی این مطالب از نظر تاریخی و مذهبی اهمیت ندارد. سران اینها، اسلام را در یک آیین ویژه سلفی خلاصه می کنند که مخصوص عربهای نجد و بخشی از بغداد بود. باقی مردم از ترک و فارس و بربر هیچ وقت از نظر آنها مسلمان نبودند. وقتی با عثمانی هم درافتادند همین مطالب را علیه ترکها گفتند. الان هم زمینه پیش بیاید ترکها و کردها را هم مسلمان نمی دانند و اگر هم بدانند شهروند درجه دوم به حساب می آورند. نژاد پرستی عربی که از پیش از اسلام بود، ریشه در اعماق وجود اینان دارد. امروز شنیدم آقای قره داغی عالم معروف که گویند جانشین قرضاوی هم هست در قطر، وقتی دیدند که داعش، کردهای قره داغ را هم تکفیر کرده، لطف کردند داعشی ها را تکفیر کردند. نمی دانم خبر درست است یا خیر، اما فعلا بازار تکفیر داغ است و بهتر است علمای شیعه همچنان روش قدیمی و اصولی خود را در حفظ حریم اسلام و عقل حفظ کنند. http://www.khabaronline.ir/detail/368861/weblog/jafarian

  292. kooshy says:

    Looks like the Western and Arab monarchy supported IS or ISIS extremist takfiri terrorist are effectively sandwiched between protected Shieh south of Iraq and government and Hezbollah protected western Syria , with nowhere else to advance except North to Turkey, south to Saudi Arabia, East to Jordan and west to US allied Barezani’s Kurdistan, I wonder if they are effectively held back advancing to shieh areas (like in Syria) they will eventually start to pose danger and threat to US Arab allies like the KSA and Jordan and if this why after a month US is now willing to cooperate to stop their advance. I think if a strategy to hold them on both ends in the middle till they start to become threat to US interest should make the alarms start going off faster, I was wondering why for a while nothing comes out of Iran except the warning that the terrorist will eventually come after their supporters ( with some stimulation).

  293. Karl.. says:

    Hah. U.S. go insane for Russia’s alleged involvment in Ukraine. But themselves could involve themselves in Iraq. Not sure if should cry or laugh at this hypocrites.

  294. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Poodle Europeans continue to sacrifice national economic interests for…for what?

    Oh yeah the Americans and Zionists!

    How Russia’s sanctions are impacting countries
    Europe and US are tightening bans against Russia over support for rebels in the Ukraine

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/how-russia-s-sanctions-are-impacting-countries-1.1890062

  295. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    We usually like these “hard-working”, “polite” Japanese…but in the end, they are just America’s bitch.

    Japan Imposes New Sanctions on Russia but Keeps a Diplomatic Door Open

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/06/world/asia/japan-keeps-door-to-russia-open-while-imposing-sanctions.html?_r=0

  296. Karl.. says:

    Bussed in Basiji

    EU looks more and more like a pure proxy to Washtington, shameful behavior.

  297. fyi says:

    kooshy says:

    August 7, 2014 at 10:17 pm

    As I told you before, you have to accommodate the syncretic sects of Islam; you have to become their champion – that is the only way forward.

    You take my idea of declaring different sects to be Muslims by a certain percentage – say Yazidis are 40% Muslim, or Sikhs are 85% Muslim etc. so that they can trust you.

    If you do not like my idea above, then devise your own way.

    You have to project a believable positive image of the future….

  298. Fiorangela says:

    Breaking: The West stages new production of an old script, to be titled “Versailles Redux:” http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/08/07/europe_proposes_un_mission_for_gaza

    Who will play Sykes and who will play Picot?

    Will Chaim Weizmann have a cameo role, or will Louis Brandeis hold the spotlight for zionists?

  299. Karl.. says:

    Fiorangela

    Just shows how twisted western regimes are. Do they, really believe that Palestinians would accept anything near this neo-colonial proposals? No wonder there is no criticism against Israel, the EU act like a colonizer itself with this bs.

  300. Fiorangela says:

    CORRECTION and additions:

    The new production will be called, Versailles the SEQUEL — — the ineluctably logical sequel.

    In the original production a bit player in the plot, zionism, emerged with a “dual victory”* — a homeland for Jews in Palestine AND ensured rights in Germany.

    In the new, improved version, zionists once again achieve a dual victory — or maybe more than just a duet. You do the counting —

    “The arrangements, which would be led by the Palestinian Authority, “should help to prevent a rearming of militant groups in Gaza and military violations, and provide for an effective dismantling of tunnels between Gaza and Israel.”
    Under the terms of the plan, European police advisors operating as part of the European Union Coordinating Office for Palestinian Police Support (EUPOL COPPS) — which is based in the West Bank — could be given a broader mandate to support the Palestinian Authority as it takes on an expanded security role in Gaza.”

    As I see it, zionists GAIN
    -relief of culpability for crimes against humanity in Gaza
    -sundering of the nascent unity government that was the worry that set the entire campaign in motion
    -total control of Gaza by merely pulling the strings of puppet PA
    -which frees up Israeli forces to act with impunity to annex those parts of West Bank and Gaza that it intended to annex all along
    -in order to, among other things, exercise complete control over energy resources in Mediterranean (some of which are in Gaza’s maritime domain)

    As in the original, where Germany played no role, so Hamas has no role in the new production.

    In the original, at least the King Crane commission surveyed the Arab world that was most impacted by Versailles agreements, even if the survey was shelved and not considered in the course of betraying Wilson’s promise of “self-determination” to former members of Ottoman empire. This time around, those same, long-betrayed long-denied long-de-nationalized and disunited Arab and Islamic states have been set to fighting among themselves, and have been suborned to participate with the new production that the Europeans will stage-manage.

  301. Fiorangela says:

    Norman Finkelstein, Aug 6 2014 — lucid, objective, tragic

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvBZhe7nU2M&list=UUczrL-2b-gYK3l4yDld4XlQ

  302. Fiorangela says:

    Palestinian Authority withdraws complaint against Israel

    Nuremberg was sooo 20th century. Never again.

  303. Ataune says:

    @fyi

    You do not need a declarative approach for everything.

    Sometimes, it’s beneficial to promote the moral aspect while running a policy; some days, when the timing is off or the balance of power is not favorable, you might just want to remind everyone on what ethical ground you stand on; and some other times you’re better off advancing your hard policy and staying mum about your belief system. The art and the finesse is to always keep the public moral posture, the soft power, not sounding (and in the case of Iran not being) out of sync with the hard policy. That’s the way space is managed in politics.

    One example, somehow invalidating your remarks, of how graceful the political leadership is managing this space, in contrast with the “elephant in the room” approach of the US illustrated so many times by our hosts, is the way Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict is tackled by Iran. While on one hand the unity among Muslims as the only way of guaranteeing peace and security for religious minorities in the region is still promoted, but mildly one would say; on the other side, for strategic and historical reasons, IRI’s has pushed a hard policy of giving Armenia the much needed strategic depth to resist an Azerbaijani advance, thus preventing the bridging between the latter and Turkey, a real dangerous prospect for Iran.

  304. fyi says:

    Ataune says:

    August 8, 2014 at 11:45 am

    I appreciate your comments.

    I actually think, however, that a declarative policy is what is needed for 2 reasons:

    1. To reduce the insecurity under which all these people with syncretic beliefs live
    2. To reduce the tension in the body-politic that the existence of such communities pose; perhaps not in Iran herself but in Lebanon, Turkey, Iraq, and Pakistan.

    I think we have passed the stage that a policy of benign neglect could be adopted in practice.

    In regards to Muslim Unity – I do not oppose it but I do not put any stock in predicating hard policy on it.

    The fact is that for centuries Sunnis were raiding – from Central Asia – Iran; taking booty, slaves, and hostages.

    Russians put a stop to it.

    It was painfully frustrating to listen to those Iranians who lived in a fantasy world of Muslim Unity those many decades ago.

    I personally cannot see a durable entente between Turkey and Azerbaijan – the religious dimension is always going to be the proverbial in the ointment.

    In regards to Armenia – for 2500 years or more she has not been a threat; I think that deserves some consideration along the Iranian planners.

  305. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Ukraine was an unlikely candidate for membership in Nato. Before the coup. Even membership in the EU would be many years out.

    Russia has no need to foster civil war in Ukraine, to ensure Ukraine does not become a member of Nato. Germany is the best country to work out a deal with Russia.

  306. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Do you think Hamas makes it more difficult for Israel to continue to occupy the West Bank, by firing rockets at Israel from the Gaza Strip?

  307. James Canning says:

    The Financial Times today has a full page on Israel, and the drift toward Zionist fanaticism.

  308. Ataune says:

    @fyi

    I don’t see how the 2 reasons you mention help validate your assertion of a declarative policy being the best for Islamic Republic. Championing specifically one minority or/and others and declaring them being protected is helping the other side fuel more sectarianism therefore tying the hands and reducing the political space; while calling for Muslim unity and against religious division is wide enough to both encompass the soft power after the revolution and include protection of minorities. As I explained it in the case of Armenia, and we can easily expand this to hard policies towards Lebanon, Syria and Iraq, in real term this is not a benign neglect but a forceful hard policy combined with a mild declared one.

    Besides, your historical account lack if not accuracy at least clarity. Those times you call “Sunny raiding” were when the inhabitant of the Iranian plateau were themselves mostly Sunni. If anything those raids can be called, borrowing the unfortunate wording of Ratzel, lebensraum, rather than coining them with a religious term.

  309. James Canning says:

    The Financial ties today has a very good report on how Saudi Arabia has spread Sunni fanaticism throughout the Muslim world.

  310. fyi says:

    Ataune says:

    August 8, 2014 at 1:57 pm

    No, they were bandits.

    We have to differ on the treatment of minority sects – I would like the Islamic Republic to be a beacon of light to all these unfortunate people.

    I model my proposal on the late Mr. Lincoln’s 10% Solution as well as how certain native American tribes extend their membership – declaring some to be 1/8 Indian, some to be 1/4 Indian etc. [This lead to strange results – 2 brothers one being “Full Indian” while the other being “1/4 Indian” !]

  311. James Canning says:

    The New Statesman in a leader calls upon Israel to get out of the West Bank.

  312. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 8, 2014 at 1:09 pm

    Germany has zero-say on the Ukraine issue.

  313. kooshy says:

    Ataune says:
    August 8, 2014 at 11:45 am

    Very well said, on point you are very correct, that is how IRI has been able to increase her soft power regardless of all the odds and barriers.
    Your point on how the (Iran’s) Armenian vs Azari policy is managed, considering Iran’s large demography of Azaris and her NW and N. Turkish ethnic neighbors, one should admit Iranians know this art well.
    There is no other way to last and survive in that neighborhood.

  314. kooshy says:

    I must add I know the biggest help Iran has and gets for implementing a policy to protect her national interest toward Armenian Azari conflict is the help and support she gets from Iranian Azaris, without their support and consent Iran had to forgo here support for an independent Armenia.

  315. Karl.. says:

    In the azeri/armenia conflict what position have Iran? Who have they a better relationship with?

  316. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says:
    August 8, 2014 at 1:13 pm

    James,

    Do you think Jews made it more difficult for Germany to continue the assault on Moscow, by rising up against Germany in Warsaw?

  317. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    The Soviet Union was in the process of crushing Germany in the east, when the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto took place. Fighting Jews in Warsaw obviously did not help the Germans hold back the Russian advance (which Stalin stalled in order to allow the Jews to be slaughtered by the Germans).

  318. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I think Germany has the biggest “say”, regarding Ukraine and what terms of a deal would be.

  319. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    kooshy, Ataune,

    Nobody in the region doubts that Iran is the champion of coexistence of different religions in the region- a policy first applied by Iran in Lebanon btw.

    Everybody knows from experience that the only “positive” future being envisioned is by the IRI and SL.

    No need for Iran to get into details about some of the obscure sects mentioned.

    All this talk of “religious minorities” by felani is the preliminary farting to the big shit that he wants to eventually unload…

    Can you guess it?

    The alleged “need” to recognize the godfather of all religious frauds…the “OG” of religious rackets…I think you know what I’m talking about?

    No?

    It’s all the “pre-fart” to the alleged need to recognize the old British-Zionist political scheme to divide Iran called “Bahaism”.

    I mean seriously, who in their right mind actually believes Bahaism is anything other than a racket based out of Haifa, right?

  320. Fiorangela says:

    The point of my response to your really ugly comment was that oppressed people have the right to resist, in international law and in natural law.

    That Israel continued to commit crimes in West Bank even as they continued to commit crimes against the people in Gaza, where the people of Gaza also continued their resistance places, no culpability whatsoever on the actions of the Palestinians. Israel is the bad actor; it bears full responsibility its criminal acts.

  321. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    I was not suggesting culpability on the part of the Palestinians.

  322. kooshy says:

    BiB Jaan

    You are absolutely right that in 19 century brits were busy turn and promoting some divisive local ideas to religions which become a permanent source of internal conflicts as such are

    Wahhabism in Hejaz for the Sunnis
    Zionism for Eastern Europe and Levant and Russia
    Mormon for the new colonies just incase
    Bhaie for the Shieh

    Off notice is, all these new religious sects are to promote extremist belief of a kind, but not necessarily of violent kind, although eventually their existence will bring violence to their respected societies, which is why they were promoted to a religion.

  323. kooshy says:

    Karl.. says:
    August 8, 2014 at 3:14 pm
    “In the azeri/armenia conflict what position have Iran? Who have they a better relationship with?”

    Karl- Iran’s position toward everyone excepting the illegitimate, oppressor, and colonialist regimes of the world is: simply put “coexistence, peace and love” believe it or not Iran has everything Iran wants and more.

  324. Rehmat says:

    “The Iranians have caused great harm in their insistence to manipulate both Syria and Iraq, but the Obama administration, with the help of Saudis and ISIS, has now effectively squeezed Iran into brokering a deal,” wrote Morgan Strong at Jewish Middle East Eye, on June 21, 2014.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/08/09/us-attacks-isis-ally-in-iraq/

  325. fyi says:

    kooshy says:

    August 8, 2014 at 6:47 pm

    And did the English also create Yazidis? Druze? Alawites? Ahmadis?

    How long Sir, how long are you going to lie to yourself?

    20 million people – per Orthodox Islam (Shia or Sunni) – are heretics/mortads in Turkey.

    Millions more are mortads/heretics in Syria and Lebanon and Pakistan and India.

    What is your answer to them?

    How can you create a state based on Islam dealing with mortads – or people whose ancestors were mortads and know they are heretics?

    Conversion at the point of Death?

    Expulsion (to where)?

    What is your plan?

  326. kooshy says:

    fyi says:
    August 8, 2014 at 9:10 pm

    What is your answer to them?

    I don’t see or a must that I have to answer them , for that matter Iran hasn’t seen a needs or a must to answer them, what makes you think they should Waite or need their legitimacy to be approved by someone else, even Bahies have been tolerated more by IRI then they were by the Ghajars. I think Iran and Iranians can and will tolerate all the religions or sects as long as one does not try to expand, hunt, and convert
    other believers to his her own outside of the law religions.

    As has been the case, especially with regard to Iran, two items of Iranian culture is an extreme importance of Iran’s national security matters (I always like to call this, Iran = United Republic of Imam Ali and Firdausi) no Iranian should allow these two concept of shieh Islam and Persian language be marginalizes, divided or diminished for anybody and reason ( 40 years ago my grandfather a trained politician told me this ) if they did, they will come to see the end of a the culture and way of life which is called Iranian. If you think Iranians should allow and tolerate other religions or allow other dialects and languages become national semi official language, you have no idea how fiercely religious and nationalist Iranians are.

    One must accept Iran is an Islamic country and whoever chooses to live there must accept her laws (like whoever lives here in US must adhere to her laws or you end up in jail), you will be tolerated as long as you don’t try to make and changes others to the religion you believe in and is outside of Iran’s Islamic laws.

    And please don’t try to over dramatize for me, I am too old for that, I said before you should set your trap somewhere that can yield something. The two points that you are constantly bringing up demonizing and attacking Iran with which are her unity of culture and her unity of religion is exactly what Iran’s enemies whish she can do away with. You have experienced whenever you attack these two principals of unified Iran you will be confronted by majority of Iranians, including me, disunity of Iran by words or by deed in any way and any shape will not be tolerated , if you will.

  327. fyi says:

    kooshy says:

    August 8, 2014 at 10:24 pm

    What I am hearing is that you have no answers.

  328. kooshy says:

    fyi says:
    August 8, 2014 at 11:41 pm

    “What I am hearing is that you have no answers.”

    Or you didn’t like what you heard, perhaps I say it again, Iran, Iranians and me, don’t see a need to answer your question, that is since Iran don’t see or is under a threat by the Bahie, Yazidi, or other unrecognized minority religious sects you mentioned, in other words, Iran and Iranians like me feel Iran will be and becomes more threaten by recognizing and answering to what you suggest and liked to hear, which is the answer you would like to have and didn’t get. In other words like the Old Persian saying “the head that doesn’t ache you don’t wrap” it looks that is exactly what you like Iran to do make himself busy with internal issues she dissent have and don’t need, but again like the old saying “you must be (act) blind not to see the writing on the wall” Internal conflicts wouldn’t happen Iranians are unified against national deviders.

  329. M. Ali says:

    Read this,
    ” Sorry, but Iran Air 655 is Not Equivalent to Malaysia Flight 17″ from Harvad Political Review.

    http://harvardpolitics.com/world/sorry-iran-air-655-equivalent-malaysia-flight-17/

    From the headline, I assumed the argument was that it is not same as the Malaysian incident, because the Iran Air incident was much, much worse. But apparently, the argument is the opposite. It seems from the argument, US attacking Iran Air was no big deal at all.

    “While the United States erred in its actions in the shoot-down and its aftermath, the reasons for the American military presence in the Persian Gulf and the later actions taken by the United States to recompense Iran for the disaster are crucial to consider, and absolve the United States of the specious charge of hypocrisy in criticizing Russian actions leading to the destruction of Flight MH17.”

    Vomit.

    Thankfully, the comments on that article all agree that it is a pile of shit. The poster gave the best response,

    WHAT UMITIGATED AND ABSOLUTELY REPREHENSIBLE RUBBISH. You’re oh-so-conveniently forgetting many many details, like that the Vincennes had violated Iranian waters and initiated the battle, thanks to Rules of Engagement that encouraged provocation and aggression against Iran (which the ICJ ruled violated international law in the Platforms case) making the US automatically liable and making this event a war crime. The Airbus was shot down inside Iranian airspace and fell into Iranian waters, and the Vincennes was MILES inside Iranian waters at the time contrary to 4 years of Navy lies that the Vincennes was “defending itself in international waters” until Ted Koppel confronted Adm. William Crowe with that fact on Nightline. You’re also forgetting that those “neutrals” that the US was supporting were actually co-belligerents who were helping Saddam. Iran had every right to “interfere” with shipping — it is called the Right of Visitation and Search (which can include sinking vessels that don’t cooperate) and quite legally so. And it was in fact Iraq which was responsible for attacking most of the tankers, with Western provided weapons (including the Exocet that took out the Stark…which Reagan blamed on Iran.) You’re also forgetting that at the time the US was complicit in arming Saddam with chemical weapons and helping him target those weapons (according to the released CIA files) which means that the US was absolutely neck-deep in one of the worst war-time atrocities of the 20th century, for which no one was held responsible. The US-backed chemical weapons use alone resulted in over 80,000 Iranian casualties, how many 9/11 was that? And “mistake” does not relieve one of liability under international law – a fact that Prof. Andreas Lowenfeld pointed out in AJIL was the standard that the US had applied to similar incidents by other nations. But the similarities go on…

    “I will never apologize for the US, I don’t care what the facts are” – US VP Bush.
    “Yes we shot it down, and we’d do it again” -USSR FM Andrei Gromyko

    Wright and “Harvard Political Review” should be ABSOLUTELY ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES

    Oh and FYI the Capt of the Vincennes was warned of “Possible Comair” and raised his hand in acknowledgement of the warning before he fired the missiles. None of the other ships in the region made a similar “mistake” either.

  330. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says:
    August 8, 2014 at 6:28 pm

    What were you suggesting, James? Were you suggesting that the people of Gaza had no right to resist occupation and brutalization by Israel?

    If you were not implying that Palestinians bear culpability [for Israeli expansionism in West Bank], who does?

  331. A-B says:

    We have three illustrative examples:

    Las Malvinas – Islands off the Argentine coast, stolen by the notorious British Piracy and located thousands of kilometers from that cursed island, remain British through the most rediculous of ‘referendums’.

    Crimea – that was given – as if a ‘thing’ – to Ukraine by Khrushchev, but ‘returned’ to Russia through a fair referendum. However, Crimea was in the first place gobbled up by the Russian blob under the reign of Cathrine ‘du Fattay’ (she was VERY big apparently!)

    Nakhjavan – A natural part of historic Iran (one may justifiably argue) that was severed from her by the same Russian blob, but that after the desintegration of the Soviet abomination actually wanted to rejoin with Iran. What I understand, Iran refused.

    Imagine, what the West and Russian would have done if Nakhjavan would have returned to Iran!! But of course, the Imperial one-trick-pony really doesn’t care about facts and other ‘trivialities’ and can at will make an issue of any non-issue and totally neglect real issues (that it itself creats for others). So, the West would still attack Russia regardless the Crimean referendum, exactly as they’ve made an ‘issue’ of Iran’s nuclear non-issue.

    K1-N

  332. M. Ali says:

    Read the news on Russia from western sources. Their treatment of Russia is how they always treat Iran, dislike mixed with mockery.

    Russia has wasted its time trying to snuggle to the west. It needs to stand firm and forge strong allies with non-US puppet countries. But Russia has not really been able to manouver this well, being a big player that has not represented a decent alternative to Russia, due to its fickleness and the fact that they don’t stand by their allies. Kind of like Turkey and India, countries with big potential but who waste it on trying to be part of a White Only Club that will never accept them.

    Here are some headlines on Putin,

    “Russian President Vladimir Putin spreading misery at home and abroad ”

    “Putin has trapped himself in a quagmire of his own making”

    “Is Putin Really Cornered?”

    “Vladimir Putin pretends that he can make Russia self-sufficient and strong”

  333. M. Ali says:

    Always follow the money.

    So, there is this company called “Burisma Holding”.

    What is this company involved with? Gas in Ukraine. Its Board of Directors consists of six members. One of them is Hunter Biden. Hmm. Familiar last name. Wouldn’t it be suspicious if he was some far relative to Joe Biden, like some second cousin or something? It would be extremely troubling!

    Well, what if he was his FUCKING SON?!

  334. Karl.. says:

    M Ali

    Good point, its about power. When Iran (esp under Ahmadinejad) and when Russia (under Putin) strengthen Iran/Russia, apparently the crazy leaders in west just cannot take it and have to pick on these leaders/states to weaken them.
    I think it was the worst for Iran between 2007-2010, Russia? I think media will get alot worse.

  335. fyi says:

    kooshy says:

    August 9, 2014 at 12:25 am

    If a claim is made that the Islamic Republic of Iran and indeed the Islamic Awakening are part and parcel of the same flow of historical development for the political and cultural future of Ummah, then it stands to reason for those who make such claims to be able to address themselves to the issues of heresy, political power, and citizenship for the syncretic sects of Islam.

    You are willfully refusing to think, but this issue is of outmost importance to others; such as 20 million Alawite/Bektashi in Turkey. What is their position within a Muslim Dispensation in Turkey; third or forth class citizen? That per Mr. Amir here should be prevented for running for office and standing for election.

    In Syria, in Turkey, and in Lebanon a secular state will be defended tooth-and-nail by these syncretic sects as well almost certainly by Christians.

    The Alawites, the Druze, the Bekatshi are not going to stand for being treated like dirt.

    And in Pakistan, another Islamic Republic, millions of people are called non-Muslims who have then no place in there.

    May be they should all go to India; another secular republic?

    Question remains.

  336. James Canning says:

    A-B,

    I understand that Germany is willing to make a deal with Russia that would allow Russia to keep Crimea.

  337. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    Who to blame for insane illegal Israeli colonisation programme in the West Bank? US Congress. Certainly not the Palestinians.

  338. James Canning says:

    Kooshy,

    You appear to contend that Britain wanted Ibn Saud to conquer the Hejaz. You are simply mistaken. Ibn Saud also wanted to take Jordan, but Britain prevented him from doing so.

  339. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    kooshy-jan,

    The old fool sounds like a broken record.

    Iran has shown through its ACTIONS domestically and in countries like Lebanon, Syria, Iraq that it is tolerant, even in cases when shari issues exist about certain sects.

    PRACTICALLY they are tolerated.

    No need to make grand statements about it and worry about few thousand people here or there which have no bearing on affairs.

    As usual he is lost in his mental delusions derived from a crippled reading of history.

    “Oh the [fill-in-the-blank]!” Blah blah broken record.

    He apparently missed Sayyid Hassan’s meeting with Walid Jumblatt a couple days ago.

    Yes that’s right, that would be the leader of Shias in Lebanon meeting the leader of the Druze to discuss how to confront takfiris and the recently returned Saudi citizen/bitch Rafik Hariri.

    You see when all you do is regurgitate false conclusion you drew thirty years ago without reading the news TODAY, you start worrying about Alawites and Bektashis in Turkey and Druze in Lebanon.

    It would be nice if he went to Turkey or Lebanon and checked for himself.

    Hint: they’re doing just fine.

    Oh yeah btw, don’t get your hopes up cause none of this will ever ever ever ever ever lead to the recognition of the British political schemes to split Iranian and Pakistani societies called “Bahaism” and “Ahmadism”.

    Like I said, all these are preliminary “choss-ha” for the ultimate “an” he wants us to ingest.

  340. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Of course Saad returned (not Rafik), but come to think of it if they dug up the corpse of senior, stuffed it and wheeled it around to various meetings and rallies it probably would do a better job than junior is doing.

    Very “underwhelming”.

  341. James Canning says:

    Matthew Parris had a fine column in The Times (London) Aug. 2nd: “Road t hell is paved with liberal intervention”. Parris reminds his readers that he expected chaos and disaster if the West overthrew Gaddafi. He asked all the right questions, which laid out the dangerous course intervention appeared to him to represent. I of course agreed with hi, then and now.

  342. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 9, 2014 at 7:38 pm

    The “Road to Hell” began when NATO states refused to dismantle NATO and tried to transform its reach globally.

    To that aim, they destroyed the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and recently, through Mr. Rasmussen, revealed their plans for making the Black Sea a “NATO” sea.

    And that even after their debacles in Libya and in Iraq and Syria.

    The NATO leaders are not chastised yet and we would see more of this for a long time to come – no doubt – decades perhaps.

  343. kooshy says:

    BIB Jaan

    All the time he wants to do his 2D’ which are
    Dramatize, Demonize and Dominaze Iran and Iranians, that wouldn’t be tolerated by me, and he wouldn’t get away with.

    Criticisms is fine do it all you want, but when it comes to the time that unjustified nagging and demonizing is intended to subdue the national integrity and security, that BS of his, he knows he will get confronted, with required and necessary facts on ground.

    Like he asks what is Iran’s answer to Turkey’s Yazidis? The answers is
    ” frankly my dear this is not my problem” or why should Iran pick up this tab and not Turkey. Why you think Iran should get involved with a problem she doesn’t have? What are you trying to dig out from raising problems Iran don’t have.

  344. M. Ali says:

    I think the beautiful thing about Iran is that certain concepts of dealing with minorities doesn’t even really make sense in Iran and only works through western perspectives.

    Lets look at the different concepts of minorities,

    The Race Minority: I think this should be completely ignored when it comes to Iran. While in the west, talking about African-American minorities or Mexican-American minorities might make sense, in Iran, it shouldn’t and we should not fall in these western concept traps. I hate when people talk about, for example, Iranian Arabs or Iranian Kurds, or whatever. In the sense of Iran, anyone that is living in Iran, is Iranian. The only good thing Pahlavi did was change the name internationally from Persia to Iran. Maybe that is why iran as a continuious state had non-Parsi leaders without the state being affected due to that.

    That is also probably why it is perfectly okay for our supreme leader to be an “Azari Iranian” and no one even mentions that or points out how much he is helping out the Azaris instead of the rest of the country, but it took America 300 years to have a black president, but we still don’t have a Chinese American, Mexican American, or Native American as president.

    Or remember how people were shouting fraud in the 09 elections because Mousavi, as an Azari, lost the Azari votes? They looked at it from a western perspective that, for example, if in USA a Mexican was running against a White Man for president, then most, if not all Mexicans in America, would go for the Mexicans. But it doesn’t work like that in Iran.

    The Religion Minority: One thing the west and its western influenced Iranians don’t understand is that Iran does not have a secular political system nor does it pretend to. It very honestly gives its system in its name. The ISLAMIC Republic of Iran. Not Republic of Iran, the ISLAMIC. The Islamic part is very crucial. So its population have to adher to the Islamic part of the government. And its constitution clearly states that it will be a Shia version of Islam.

    Again, this is all upfront and it is no different than how any other country acts. A religious person cant expect a secular government to have 100% religious rulings, such as banning prayers in school. To a religious minded citizen, he might prefer a society that his children will be raised in schools that enforce prayers to meet with his needs, but if he lives in a secular state, than that is part of the package he has signed up for. As an secular citizen, the opposite exists when one is part of a religios society.

    Therefore, a society can respect the beliefs of the “minorities” as long as these minorities are not clashing with the laws that are made for the sake of the society’s desires. As long as a minority is in line with the laws and norms of that society, then they are tolerated, respected, and appreciated as good citizens. However, if suddenly tomorrow, a new cult is given birth to in Iran, where they follow Eblis, and they try to insult and offend and make a ruckus, they wouldn’t and shouldn’t be tolerated, but that would still be, “oh no poor minorities” for people who do not seem to understand simple concepts of how a society functions.

    Physical Minorities: In terms of people who are minorities based on disabilities, the blind, the deaf, etc, I think Iran does well in terms of acceptance and culture, but it needs to do more in terms of facilities.

    Sexual Minorities: This goes back to the society. If society does not want certain sexual mores to be part of its society, then it is NOT the role of the government to go against the needs of society. Maybe in 2016, beastality suddenly becomes the new trend in the west and anyone who does not appreciate the love between a man and his horse is a backward islamist from the stone ages, but whatever.

    Final thought. I’ll now try to prove to you why people who attack Iran based on “minorities” are hypocrites.

    The argument is that Minorities shouod be always tolerated.

    Okay, in the earth, Iran out of 150 country, as an Islamic Republic state with a unique language, is a minority.

    SO FUCKING TOLERATE IT.

  345. M. Ali says:

    Counterargument: But look at Istanbul, a woman can go the beach in a bikini and her sister can be elected in Parliament wearing a hijab. Muslims safe in their property.

  346. M. Ali says:

    Counter-counterargument – Shut the fuck up.

  347. Karl.. says:

    Takes a non-white, non-christian in UK to understand that genocide in Palestine is something bad?
    http://presstv.com/detail/2014/08/10/374725/warsi-raps-uk-officials-over-gaza/

  348. kooshy says:

    Can’t tolerate Iran’s norms, laws and national traditions, you feel you are a not accepted minority which is not tolerated and is not being answered adequately on why you are not allowed to be openly active.
    Fine take a hike, here is one place which will accept your.

    “A Maple Syrup Mecca For Iran’s Gays”

    “With generous social benefits, a welcoming attitude and a thriving support community, Toronto has emerged as the unofficial capital for gay Iranian refugees.”

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/10/a-maple-syrup-mecca-for-iran-s-gays.html

  349. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says:
    August 9, 2014 at 1:35 pm

    I understand that Germany . . . would allow Russia to keep Crimea.

    – – – – –

    Just can’t shed that imperialist rhetoric.

  350. Karl.. says:

    Fiorangela
    Good one. You think he would write anything like this?

    “I understand that Russia. . . would allow UK to keep Falkland islands.”

    We all know that he wouldnt just because he is stuck in outdated pro-imperialistic views.

  351. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    You see Germany as an “imperialistic power”? This frankly is silly. Angela Merkel is not an “imperialist”.

  352. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    Your obsession with the Falkland Islands is a bit peculiar.

  353. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I very much doubt that Georgia will be allowed to join Nato in the foreseeable future. Ditto Ukraine.

    If all the countries that formerly were part of Yugoslavia, become parts of the EU, would you so continue to be so agitated about the collapse of Yugoslavia?

  354. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Matthew Parris in effect argued that “the West” had no way of knowing who would emerge in control of Libya, if Gaddafi fell due to western military intervention. Parris also argued that perhaps no one would emerge in control, and that chaos would result.

  355. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    M Ali-jan,

    You’re original argument of “SO FUCKING TOLERATE IT!” is perfectly sufficient as bringing up Istanbul is not a “counterargument”.

    In other words. so fuckin what what they do in Istanbul, Turkey is not Iran. One does it this way, the other another way and both “minorities” in the globe that should be fucking tolerated!

    Keep the laughs comin…

    kooshy-jan,

    As Agha said, there’s a difference between “enteqad-e sazande” and “takhrib”.

    Enteqad-e sazande is excellent, takhrib is shit.

    Anyway the ISLAMIC Republic of Iran is showing the old man that many things he thought were “unique” to western civilization aren’t so, and so now that he sees his whole life project questioned, of course he’s bitchin.

  356. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 10, 2014 at 1:04 pm

    NATO states have amply demonstrated that they are incapable of much positive change outside of their core region; they have created a cesspool called Kosovo and have wrecked Libya, Ukraine, Iraq, Syria and damaged Iran.

    EU states, historically as well strategically, had no concrete reason to try to destroy the fabric of social life in Iran through hyper-inflation but they did.

    One must assume the worst from NATO state until it is dismantled.

    For Iranian planners, they must assume that there would be a combined attack on Iran by NATO states when they see their chance.

    The events of August 2013, whereby US reveled her hand cannot be unlived.

  357. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 10, 2014 at 1:07 pm

    EU leaders as well as US, Canada, Australia leaders will go home at the end of the day to their homes, families and friends.

    So will US, EU, Canadian, and Australian citizens.

    In the meantime, a large and varied group of people in EU’s “Near Abroad” will be doing the dying due hare brained schema of US & EU leaders’ Shia, Sunni, Arab, Iranian, Kurd, Yazidi, Jew, Christian, Druze, Alawite.

    These are the wages of weakness of local states, that the Near East has been the playground of foreigners for almost 60 years – who have only a splendid record of destruction.

  358. Fiorangela says:

    James Canning says:
    August 10, 2014 at 12:53 pm

    “You see Germany as an “imperialistic power”? This frankly is silly. Angela Merkel is not an “imperialist”.”

    – – – –

    “Germany” was not the salient point. State A arrogating to itself the capacity to allow State B to take an action is imperialist rhetoric. Frankly, it seems more a British conceit than German.

    Speaking of Germany — http://www.conflictsforum.org/2014/conflicts-forum-weekly-comment-25-july-1-august/#

  359. A-B says:

    Look at this Crosstalk episode on RT:
    http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/175344-russians-western-negative/

    Subtitled: Western perception of Russia is negative and even menacing. Is this the result of differing cultural values? And is the West merely projecting its own short comings on Russia?

    Well, isn’t the semblance with Iran striking? But these people wouldn’t admit that Iran has been as badly treated by the Western one-trick-pony, if not worse, because the Russians also joined the Western conspiracy agains Iran. A couple of weeks ago, on another RT program, Venture Capital, the anchor referred to the case of Iran when discussing the long time effects of sanctions by the fascist West, to which the Russian guest-pundit replied something like “… but Russia doesn’t deserve [santions]!!” This blatant lack of sympathy is worth scorning, why I said (already in March 21): What did you [Russia] expect – you ‘Arab’ (in European eyes) with ‘European’ complexion – that you too were ‘exceptional’? Well, these are the dues the Slaves (as I said before, be they Arabs, Indians, Russians, etc., or Eye-rainians) have to pay for accepting the European benchmark.

    Intersetingly, me calling Russians “Arab” did hit a nerve as Dmitri Trenin in “U.S. Sanctions May Aid Russian Reform” (Carnegie.ru 20140707) said: As they say in Russia, misfortune can give something which fortune has failed to give – a powerful impetus – in this case, to wean off the image of being “Saudi Arabia with snow” and start building a modern economy.

    And the Western Imperialists ARE one-trick-ponies: Putin is treated like Ahmadinejad was; individuals are being barred and put under sanctions; news channels like RT, that torpedoes the Western lies, are banned as was PressTV; ridiculous ‘cases’, like Yukos, are filed to extort money mafia-wise, and equally the Anglo-Americans churn all they can from ‘dissident’ cases such as that of Litvinenko … not to mention the wars the bloodthirsty West instigates, like the savage war they imposed on Ukraine and then blame it on Russia – as Iran is blamed for the catastrophic mess the Western savages have made in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. because Iran is simply located in the region; as the Americans and NATO accuse Russia for being located to close to their military bases!

    K1-N

  360. A-B says:

    And …

    The Russians take of course the same retaliatory measures against the ‘sanctioneers’ as Iran did, down to the minute details; from banning (the same?) American individual [war criminals] to banning BBC Russia, to scrutinizing the shitty company Oriflame!

  361. Rehmat says:

    Erdogan: Don’t call me ‘Islamist’ President of Turkey

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/08/11/erdogan-dont-call-me-islamist-president-of-turkey/

  362. James Canning says:

    Rodric Braithwaite has some very sensible comments today in the Financial Times, regarding the best way forward in Ukraine, diplomatically.

  363. James Canning says:

    Fiorangela,

    You apparently are not aware of the deal Angela Merkel apparently has offered to Putin. Germany of course is the strongest power in Europe.

  364. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Is the US “playing” when it bombs Isis targets in Iraq? You were complaining recently that the US was failing to bomb Isis targets in Iraq.

  365. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    The “events of August 2013” revealed that Obama did NOT want to intervene directly in Syria, if he could avoid doing so. Hillary Clinton is now attacking Obama for not having intervened.

  366. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Your apparent belief that Nato wants to “destroy” Iran is nonsense. (Provided Iran does not try to build nukes or get too close to building them.)

  367. Karl.. says:

    Fiorangela

    He did it again.
    “Your apparent belief that Nato wants to “destroy” Iran is nonsense. (Provided Iran does not try to build nukes or get too close to building them.)”

    “Your apparent belief that Iran wants to “destroy” UK is nonsense. (Provided UK does not try to build more nukes or get too close to iranian coastline.)”

  368. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 11, 2014 at 1:17 pm

    Those pin pricks were militarily irrelevant to the ISIS – had US been serious she would have been attacking out of Turkish Airbases.

    She is still hoping for trapping Iran and needs ISIS alive and well.

  369. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 11, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    The only way NATo can convince myself or Iran that she mean no ill-will towards Iran is by dissolving itself.

    Wolfe’s repentance is death.

  370. James Canning says:

    I think Nato serves to promote stability in Europe, and that this is a good thing for Iran.

  371. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Obama would be very happy if Isis collapsed entirely.

  372. James Canning says:

    Karl..,

    I very much doubt Iran would like to “destroy” Britain. And Britain obviously does not want to “destroy” Iran.

  373. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 11, 2014 at 2:05 pm

    The best interest of Iran is for the Europeans and Americans and Russians to be sucked into another quagmire fighting one another.

    EU and NATO are enemies of Iran and will remain so until they are exhausted or otherwise dismantled.

    Let us hope so…

  374. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 11, 2014 at 2:06 pm

    Mr. Obama waited and waited, hoping for Iranians to do something overt against ISIS – at which point he would have had many tactical options such as bombing Iranian military units as they entered Iraq or their staging areas inside Iran herself.

    Regardless, he had to act as ISIS started attacking that pretender to statehood, Kurdish Regional Government, and KRG proved to be no match for ISIS either.

    Mr. Obama, seeing that he is not using US assets in Turkey, still wants to use ISIS instrumentally against Iran.

    Iranians could try making a deal with ISIS and send it south to attack Kuwait, UAE, Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

    There is zero negative consequence for Iran in that case.

    Let Arabs, Americans, and Europeans fight ISIS in the Southern Persian Gulf and in Jordan…

  375. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Obama has ZERO interest in attacking Iranian troops or advisers in Iraq.

  376. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    The EU is not the “enemy” of Iran, or Russia.

  377. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 11, 2014 at 2:32 pm

    Not at all; EU with its cunning and clever and well-though out assault on the Iranian economy, trying to reprise Weimer’s hyperinflation in Iran and destroy Iranian social fabric is the bosom friend of Iran.

    Wolf’s repentance is death.

  378. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 11, 2014 at 2:30 pm

    Sure, you are right.

    I mean, the man who almost went to war with Iran in 2012, who did the most damage and harm to Iran short of the late Saddam Hussein, who revealed US plans for eventual military destruction of Islamic Republic of Iran in 2013 has ZERO interest in bombing Iranian military personnel in Iraq….

    Yup…

  379. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Yes, I am confident Obama himself has no interest in bombing Iranian military personnel in Iraq. And I think he regrets the western military intervention in Libya, which was not his fault (in my opinion).

  380. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    Purpose of EU sanctions was to avoid a war with Iran. This object continues.

  381. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    August 11, 2014 at 4:15 pm

    Siege warfare is an old and ancient form of warfare.

    Instead of dropping bombs, they tried to shatter Iranian society…

    Same difference; war by any other means…

    But you go ahead and keep telling yourself that it was not war…

    May be you would eventually believe it too.

  382. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    You appear to argue there is no difference between applying sanctions, and sinking a country’s navy, etc etc. I of course do not agree.