Iran and the United States after the Nuclear Deal: Hillary Mann Leverett, Seyed Hossein Mousavian, and Seyed Mohammad Marandi on CCTV’s The Heat

Now that the P5+1 and Iran have concluded their Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA), it is important to look not just at how the parties will go about implementing the deal but also at the JCPOA’s strategic impact.  Hillary, the University of Tehran’s Seyed Mohammad Marandi, and Princeton University’s Seyed Hossein Mousavian engaged in a good discussion of these issues on CCTV’s The Heat, see here or click on the above videos.

Mohammad underlines what—not just from an Iranian perspective but from any perspective that values the possibility of rules-based international order—is certainly a key aspect of the JCPOA’s long-term significance:

“For the first time, really, the United States has been forced to accept the Iranian peaceful nuclear programI think that is the most significant thing to come out of this…Despite the United States forcing the UN Security Council, in previous years, to impose sanctions on the country, and despite the fact that the United States applied punitive sanctions itself, and threatened other countries with sanctions if they did business with Iran, despite all that, ultimately the United States had to accept Iran’s peaceful nuclear program.  And we have to remember that, in the past, the United States was saying that Iran did not have the right to enrich uranium…

The fact that Iran has been able to retain its peaceful nuclear program shows Iran’s inherent strength as an independent country.  And I think it also vindicates the fact that Iran continued to pursue its peaceful nuclear program over the past few years.  This has given Iran the capability to have a strong hand at the negotiating table.”

As for the JCPOA’s impact on U.S.-Iranian relations, Hillary explains that this will depend very much on how Washington presents the JCPOA to its own public and the extent to which the agreement prompts a fundamental revision of U.S. strategy toward the Middle East:

“[The Obama administration] may try to sell it as a narrow arms control agreement.  Well, there’s never going to be an agreement that’s good enough to contain what many in Washington see as this unreconstructed, ‘evil’ state, I think that’s going to fail.  And I think that the attempt to say, ‘Well, the Iranians are going to abide by this, so you don’t have to worry,’ and, in the meantime, we’re going to continue to sell billions of dollars of weapons to Saudi Arabia and Israel—while Iran still has the arms embargo in place—could make for a more destabilized region, a more highly militarized region.”

Similarly, Mohammad points out that, if the United States were ready to “rethink” its policy toward the Middle East and toward Iran,

“if the United States changes its behavior toward the country, it would benefit a great deal.  But we have to also keep in mind that the United States is still imposing a large number of sanctions against the country.  U.S. policy in the region is still in conflict with that of Iran, because of U.S. support for Saudi Arabia and Turkey in their support for al-Qa’ida.  So, Iranian-U.S. relations are pretty poor, and I don’t think they will change very quickly.”

As Hillary underscores, the only way to reap the full potential benefit of the JCPOA is for the United States to pursue real, “Nixon to China” rapprochement with the Islamic Republic of Iran.  But, at the moment, there is no consensus in favor of that within the Obama administration.

The discussion is worth watching in its entirety.

Flynt Leverett and Hillary Mann Leverett

 

85 Responses to “Iran and the United States after the Nuclear Deal: Hillary Mann Leverett, Seyed Hossein Mousavian, and Seyed Mohammad Marandi on CCTV’s The Heat”

  1. Karl.. says:

    Khomeini
    July 18, 2015 at 11:36 am

    I think you are a bit too positive on this, Parchin etc is not forgotten (by US/IAEA), that the document say this or that on military facilities doesnt mean anything, but you are right that we have to wait and see where this issue leads us.

  2. Jay says:

    Karl and Amir,

    from the previous thread, and relevant to the current topic…

    If you follow the decision tree, you will find out that raising issues with Parchin, Iran refusing “unfettered” access, and the “deal” falling apart is not a “big deal”. For example, by that time Iran is a member of the Shanghai pact and reversing sanctions will have a much smaller impact on Iran.

  3. yk says:

    For those in support and in opposition to the JCPOA especially Iranians on this forum, I will like to make a reference in history to the treaty of Hudaibiyya during the time of Prophet Muhammad (as). When the treaty was been drafted the kafiris were opposed to Muhammad’s name being written on the treaty as a Prophet and the Prophet deleted his name and even the pilgrim was not performed that year though the Muslims were just few kilometers from Mecca and some companions want the Prophet to declare a jihad which he decline, to the chagrin of some prominent companions.
    My point is that zero sum game is to the detriment of all and benefit of none and negotiations is all about give and take. Does deleting the Prophet’s name from the treaty changed the fundamentals principles of his Prophethood and Message? Absolutely not!
    Much as I am not trying to compare anyone to the Prophet or the JCPOA to the treaty of Hudaibiyya, suffice to say the deal is not a perfect deal as there’s nothing like a perfect deal, yet there’s a time to fight and a time for ceasefire.
    What most has been doing here is to criticise, none of the critics have offered a workable alternative to the deal which a good critic would have done. To expect Iran to have all its demand accepted by the sole superpower in conjunction with other major powers is to live in Narnia.

  4. Smith says:

    Nasser says:
    July 18, 2015 at 9:21 am

    “On a different note, where is our people with that kind of self awareness?”

    We (Mr Fyi, you and I) are it. Plus a few others in the wilderness, perhaps.

    “And where is our Infosys?”

    I would not worry about Infosys. I worry about why we do not have this (with humble dedication to Mr Fyi): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U

  5. Karl.. says:

    Jay

    Iran wont be accepted in SCO, unless all sanctions is gone, sanctions will be in place aslong as Parchin etc is blocked by Iran, thats not something I agree with but this issue is not something that going to be ignored by US/IAEA.

  6. Jay says:

    Karl.. says:
    July 18, 2015 at 4:28 pm

    Karl,

    please read my post in the earlier thread again and follow the decision tree.

    Taking what you assume regarding SCO and sanctions for granted, the net results will be the collapse of the joint plan. We are back to where we are now with Iran having had a few months to a year working out some alternative financial linkages. Nothing lost!

    If you are concerned about the permanence of this deal, then, yes, worry. I am not concerned because I do not believe it will last and I do not believe that Iran believes that it will last. So, I remain positive about this tactical pause – the so called deal.

  7. Karl.. says:

    Jay

    But if the deal breaks Iran have no alternatives to go to (SCO is blocked aslong as there is sanctions), they will be put in a position that will be worse than it has been for the past years, then will see more demonisation and more sanctions and threats. A deal would only hurt Iran in this case imo.

  8. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Supreme Leader’s Sermons at Eid ul-Fitr Prayers

    http://english.khamenei.ir//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2102

    “Another issue is a domestic one: the issue of the nuclear negotiations. I deem it necessary to raise a few points in this regard. The first point is a word of thanks to officials in charge of these long and arduous negotiations – the honorable President and particularly the negotiation team who really made great efforts and worked hard. They will certainly be divinely rewarded whether the document that has been prepared will- through its determined legal procedures- be ratified or not. We have said this to those brothers in person as well.

    Of course in order to ratify this document, there is a clear legal procedure that, by Allah’s favor, has to be taken. We expect that these officials take the interests- interests of the country, interests of the people- into consideration by paying careful attention, so that when they deliver the matter to the people, they can do so with their heads held high in front of Allah the Exalted as well.

    The next point is that by Allah’s favor and grace, no one will be allowed to take advantage of this document in any way and to undermine the fundamental principles of the Islamic Republic whether this document is ratified or not. The defense capabilities and the security area of the country will- by God’s grace- be protected although we know that the enemies have placed great emphasis on these areas. The Islamic Republic will never give in to the enemy’s greed in the area of protecting its defense capabilities and security- particularly in this environment filled with the enemies’ threats.

    The next point is that whether this document is ratified or not, we will not abandon our regional friends: the oppressed people of Palestine, the oppressed people of Yemen, the people and government of Syria, the people and government of Iraq, the oppressed people of Bahrain and the sincere mujahids of the Resistance in Lebanon and Palestine. These people will always enjoy our support.

    The next point is that our policy towards the arrogant government of America will not change in any way despite these negotiations and the document that has been prepared. As we have said many times, we have no negotiations with America on different global and regional issues. We have no bilateral negotiations with America. Sometimes, we have negotiated with them in exceptional cases such as the nuclear issue and we have done so because of our interests. The nuclear issue was not the only case. There were other cases as well which I have referred to in my previous public speeches. The American policies in the region are 180 degrees the opposite of the policies of the Islamic Republic. The Americans accuse Hezbollah and the Lebanese Resistance – who are the most self-sacrificing forces in their country in the area of national defense – of terrorism. There is no injustice worse than this. This is while they support the terrorist child-killing government of Zionism. How can one do business, negotiate and reach an agreement with such a policy? There are other cases as well and I will expand on them in other speeches.

    Another point is about the Americans’ blustering in recent days. In the recent days that the negotiations have been concluded, the American excellencies – their male and female officials – are busy blustering. Each of them is blustering in a different way. Of course, this is alright with us. Their domestic problems force them into blustering. They claim that they have dragged Iran towards the negotiating table, that they have made Iran surrender, that they have obtained such and such concessions from our country and other such claims. However, the truth is something else. They say that they have prevented Iran from building nuclear weapons, but this has nothing to do with our negotiations with America and other countries. They themselves know this and sometimes they have spoken about the importance of the fatwa that bans nuclear weapons.

    According to the commands of the Holy Quran and Islamic sharia, we consider building, keeping and using nuclear weapons as haraam and therefore, we will not do so. This has nothing to do with them and with these negotiations. They themselves know that this is the truth. They know that what prevents the Islamic Republic from building nuclear weapons is not their threats and intimidating behavior. There is a religious barrier behind this and they know the significance of this fatwa, but they still claim that it was they who prevented Iran. They are not honest with their own people and they do not tell them the truth. On various other matters, they say that they have adopted such and such a measure about Iran’s nuclear industry and that they have forced Iran to surrender, but they can only see Iran’s surrender in their dreams.

    From the beginning of the Revolution until today, five other U.S. presidents died or were lost in history dreaming that they would force the Islamic Republic to surrender. You too will enjoy the same fate. You too will never achieve the dream of forcing the Islamic Republic to surrender.

    There was one point in the statements that the American president made in recent days: he admitted to America’s past mistakes. Of course, he said a hodgepodge of things. He admitted that the Americans made a mistake in Iran on the 28th of Mordad. He admitted that the Americans made a mistake in helping Saddam Hussein. He admitted to two, three mistakes, but he did not mention tens of others. He did not speak about the 25-year oppressive and treacherous rule of the second Pahlavi monarch. He did not speak about the many instances of torture, looting, massacre, disaster and calamity that were caused by America. He did not speak about the destruction of the Iranian peoples’ dignity and America’s efforts to trample upon their domestic and foreign interests. He did not speak about the Zionists’ domination, the killing of Iranian passengers on a passenger plane and many other things. Nonetheless, he mentioned a number of mistakes.

    I would like to offer a friendly word of advice to these excellencies: today – after the passage of many years from the 28th of Mordad, the eight-year war and the defense that the Islamic Republic put up there – you acknowledge that you have made certain mistakes. I would like to say to you that you are making a mistake in the present time as well. In the present time too, you are busy making mistakes in different places in the region and particularly towards the Islamic Republic and the people of Iran. In a few years, someone else will turn up and show you your mistakes, just as today you are admitting to the mistakes that your predecessors made. You are making mistakes as well. Therefore, you should awaken, correct your mistakes and understand the truth. You are making grave mistakes in the region.

    What I want to say to the people of Iran is that by Allah’s favor and grace, the Islamic Republic has become powerful and strong. It has become stronger on a daily basis. It is 10, 12 years now that six great global powers – which are among powerful countries in the world in terms of economic wealth – have been sitting in front of Iran, trying to prevent it from pursuing its nuclear industry. They have said this openly. Their real goal is to open the nuts and bolts of the nuclear industry. They have said this to our officials many years ago. In the present time too, they pursue the same dream. The result of a 10, 12-year struggle with the Islamic Republic is that they have been forced to tolerate the operation of several thousand centrifuges in the country. They have been forced to tolerate the continuation of this industry in our country. They have been forced to tolerate the development of this industry and the continuation of research on it. Research and developing the nuclear industry will continue. The cycle of the nuclear industry will continue.

    This is what they have been trying to prevent for many years, but today they have signed on paper that they have no problem with our nuclear industry. Apart from the power of the Iranian people, what other meaning does this have? This has been achieved because of the people’s resistance and steadfastness and our dear scientists’ courage and innovation. God’s mercy be upon the likes of Shahriari, Rezainejad, Ahmadi Roshan and Ali Muhammadi. God’s mercy be upon our nuclear martyrs. God’s mercy be upon their families. God’s mercy be upon a people who stand by their truthful claims and rights.

    I would like to raise another point which is the last one. An individual has said that he can destroy Iran’s army. Our predecessors used to call such statements, “boasting among strangers” [audience laughs]. I do not want to say anything more in this regard. If those who will hear this statement want to know the truth and if they are willing to use their experiences correctly, they should know that should any war break out – of course we do not welcome and begin any war – he who will emerge humiliated [literally: “head-cracked”] out of it, will be transgressing and criminal America.”

  9. Smith says:

    On Iranian culture by Hojatolislam Valmoslemin Professor Doctor Rasool Jafarian:

    فرهنگ همچنان مرده است

    http://www.khabaronline.ir/detail/437243/weblog/jafarian

  10. fyi says:

    Jay says:

    July 18, 2015 at 4:42 pm

    Iranians will keep the deal.

    Axis Powers are a different case; especially if Americans try to reprise the Agreed Framework tactics of delay and delay and delay….

  11. Smith says:

    It is a good deal as long as Iran’s future right rights in these are respected: http://goingtotehran.com/after-rohanis-visit-to-new-york-flynt-leverett-on-prospects-for-u-s-iranian-nuclear-diplomacy#comment-20256

    Get over it.

    It is already signed.

    If you have objections then lobby the US congress to shoot it down.

    This is the best that could be done taking into account Iran’s national needs and Iranian nation’s inabilities to meet them. Only a highly creative and innovative thinking nation can tell others to go f*** themselves. Since they can provide for their own needs without having to depend on cargo imports.

    Iran can not and should not become Saddam’s Iraq. A give and take deal was necessary.

  12. Smith says:

    Instead of all this nonsense conspiracy hopeless drivel, maybe you guys should concentrate on why the deal was necessary.

    The question that must be asked is why Iran can not take care of its own needs so much so that it has to go and make deals? Whether when it was Qajar or Pahlavi or now.

    A deeper question would be, what should be done to make Iran into a productive thinking nation that can walk its own way without having to worry about prosperity?

  13. Smith says:

    Maybe you guys should concentrate on using the breathing time expensively bought by this deal to build Iran into a technological power house. As Japan did.

    When Japanese Emperor signed the unconditional surrender document, ending the WWII, he addressed his nation and told them: Gentleman, war is over. Drop your weapons and pick up the tools.

    Learn something.

  14. Smith says:

    It can’t be harder than this: http://bit.ly/1CIRJXT

  15. Smith says:

    In Western world of course.

    In India, she would never.

    The same is with Iran.

  16. Jay says:

    Karl.. says:
    July 18, 2015 at 4:58 pm

    Please articulate in more precise terms how the sanctions would be any worse than they are now. Iran cannot be sanctioned any more than it has been sanctioned already!

  17. Jay says:

    fyi says:
    July 18, 2015 at 5:44 pm

    Your statement does not make sense.

    It is not up to Iran, or P5+1, or US, to “keep” the deal. The conditions for keeping or dissolving the deal are specified by the Joint Comprehensive Plan. This was one of the main driving reasons that resulted in a 150page document and annexes.

  18. Smith says:

    Let’s hope Axis powers keep their side of the bargain and stop pouring water into this formicary.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework#The_agreement

    Failure means, Iran will have to leave NPT and go hungry. Same as North Korea. If Iranians do not want to be invaded and raped. Again and again.

  19. Smith says:

    Ants, “water” and white man’s curiosities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQnd9hmJye0

  20. pragmatic says:

    Nine reasons Obama is going to win on Iran. The first: Netanyahu –
    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/obama-going-netanyahu

  21. pragmatic says:

    Israel Wants ‘Compensation’ For The Iran Deal – Because $3 Billion A Year Isn’t Enough

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/07/16/israel-wants-compensation-for-the-iran-deal-because-3-billion-a-year-isnt-enough/

  22. Smith says:

    Seda va Sima instead of producing useless anti-thinking programs, should dub the entire videos of this channel and broadcast them in Iran so people specially the youth can fall in love with thinking and science: https://www.youtube.com/user/Vsauce/videos

    Once upon a time in West, TV used to have such programs. Now it is all garbage. But at least West has kept the tradition alive in other ways.

  23. Kooshy says:

    One good way to overcome a constant frustration with self thought Iranian shortcomings is to go and have a street orgy in Haifa. With that in mind if Nut-n-Yabo can be taken along it can release and ease-off a national frustration in Israel for this Iran deal.

  24. Nasser says:

    Ambassador Bhadrakumar once again chastises India over Iran

    http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2015/07/17/move-over-israel-its-time-for-iran/

  25. Karl.. says:

    Jay

    They could put more oil sanctions, but generally Iran breaking the deal, as it would be portrayed as, will show that Iran cannot be trusted once and for all, so it will be all in on sanctions, demonisation, assassinations etcetera.
    Iran’s economy have fallen alot since the sanctions, Iran going back to that stage, maybe permanently, would be a threat to the IR of Iran.

  26. Amir says:

    I went to read Mr Smith’s post, that he had mentioned here, and I could say it was very informative.

    Then I went down and read others’ comments, and I could say it was very interesting as well (I should put some time aside for reading your comments).

    The only thing that puzzled me was Mr fyi’s insistence that using beardless PR officials would solve the problem with beardless strata of Iranian society; the problem is not beard. They are opposed to the message, not the messenger! I think he must know that from firsthand experience with Europeans, who would accuse anyone who could put in a good word for Iran, of being a paid agent of the Islamic Republic.

    That’s why I have misunderstood something; when all of you were talking about muleteers and brick-layers, you must have been actually talking about beardless and the “urbane”. My personal experience has been that lay-person attach far greater importance to higher education (my grandfather, a villager in north Kerman) sent almost all his children to Mashad and Tehran (one didn’t like the university) while the “urbane” people in Tehran are most concerned about social liberty, cheap foreign currency and ease of travel abroad (if it was for education I could stomach it, but it’s not, at least in most cases).

    So… I just wanted to apologize to both Mr Smith and Mr fyi, for insulting them, and telling them things that I think befitted myself.

    Also, in my humble opinion, when some of you started visiting these two blogs, it was initially about defending Iran (in the aftermath of 2009 presidential elections) but gradually you became wedded to the idea of rapprochement with the US

  27. Amir says:

    As a post-script, I think Mr Smith is wrong where he argues some Iranians are opposed to for example strategic independence, because Iranian officials lack legitimacy; my first-hand experience (which might possibly be different from that of Mr Smith’s) is that certain segments of Iranian society have first decided to go for Western values, culture and whatever that entails, HENCE, they are opposed to what they hear from bearded guys.

    In a post he mentions many college students learn playing guitar instead of what they are actually supposed to do; how is that the state’s fault? That so many young people are more interested in smoking weed, playing guitar and listening to music, go to parties etc, is their own fault.

    If anything, I think indulging these individuals’ destructive habits, by saying the state is tying down the youth (by supposedly enforcing Islamic values, که ما همچین چیزی در این بیست و چند سال عمرمون ندیدیم), is a terrible idea.

  28. Karl.. says:

    Here we go again. Cameron demand Iran to stop its support for Syria, Houtis
    link: sputniknews.com/politics/20150719/1024796904.html

  29. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    It’s interesting that douchebag consistently misrepresents Iranian scientific, technological, engineering abilities.

    Why?

    Cause he’s a douchebag.

    Let’s look at some facts that might help us better understand this matter:

    There was a Muslim Hezbollahi Iranian nuclear scientist who when various countries refused to sell enriched uranium for the Tehran reactor and medical needs- contrary to what they had contracted to do- alone and without demanding money from the government raised enrichment levels and produced fuel plates.

    In the shortest time and with limited resources.

    Pampered, spoiled US government scientist with “unlimited” resources could never have done this in 50 years under the circumstances.

    It’s called “being innovative”.

    And then Allah blessed him with martyrdom for his pure efforts.

    In the words of Agha:

    “This is what they have been trying to prevent for many years, but today they have signed on paper that they have no problem with our nuclear industry. Apart from the power of the Iranian people, what other meaning does this have? This has been achieved because of the people’s resistance and steadfastness and our dear scientists’ courage and innovation. God’s mercy be upon the likes of Shahriari, Rezainejad, Ahmadi Roshan and Ali Muhammadi. God’s mercy be upon our nuclear martyrs. God’s mercy be upon their families. God’s mercy be upon a people who stand by their truthful claims and rights.”

    His grave is at Imamzadeh Saleh in Tajrish. Might not hurt to pay it a visit these days.

    This brings us to the main point which is “culture”.

    Of course, as predicted douchebag was incapable of giving us a definition of culture.

    Why?

    Cause he’s a douchebag.

    So allow me to give it a shot.

    Contrary to the epics posted and irrelevant links attached, the “culture” that has actually and in reality advanced Iran scientifically, technological and engineering-wise has been the Shia Islamic culture of self-sacrifice and martyrdom.

    Surprise, asshole!

    It’s a culture that engendered the mentioned martyred nuclear scientist and the tens of thousands of other young men and women who from the beginning of the revolution, during the war and until today work and create many things that douchebag, old man, Nasser ect. have no fuckin clue about.

    Does it matter that many people in the world and in Iran are not informed about what Iranian youth are achieving as we speak?

    Not really.

    It’s the culture of the young martyred divers- way better than you and me- who left all the beauties and dreams of this world and headed towards God.

    You are not capable of such sacrifices for your country- or anything- if asked one day, just as your ostad wasn’t when asked.

    Way too attached to your own egos.

    The database of info in your head which you perceive to be genius only has value when you are capable of sacrificing yourself for something bigger than your own ego.

    It’s unlikely you will ever understand these things given your arrogance.

    Anyway, the statistics about Iran’s scientific, technological and engineering in the last decade speak for itself for those who are not oghde-i and mentally unstable.

  30. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    I remember a young brother during the war- I think he was martyred later in the war- who was a civil engineering student before the war.

    The Iraqis used to bomb the airstrips so that our planes couldn’t take off. We would re-asphalt them over the course of days and the Iraqi airforce would bomb them again.

    So this young engineer- without anyone helping him, no internet, no computers, no labs or even digital calculators goes on create a miracle.

    He spent a few days mixing and stirring and he came up with an asphalt that dried and was ready to go in one hour.

    When we asked him how he did it, he said he prayed and the Prophet peace be upon him gave him the formula in a dream.

    It’s called “liaqat”- something most of us don’t have.

    The next time the Iraqis bombed, we asphalted the runway and three hours later the planes were flying again.

    The Ba’athist were shitting themselves.

  31. fyi says:

    Jay says:

    July 18, 2015 at 7:59 pm

    You are summing goo faith by US and indeed the Axis Powers.

    Americans themselves admitted that they reneged on the Agreed Framework promises to North Korea – always hoping for her collapse.

  32. fyi says:

    Amir says:

    July 19, 2015 at 3:54 am

    I accept your apology.

    I would like to add that you are probably correct in your estimation when you say the issue is not “beard” but the concept/system that they (“the beardless”) are opposed to.

    However, when one disrespects the beardless, his family, his wife, his children because one has power – “What is Power good for if you cannot use it to hurt other people.” – then one is creating enemies.

    Before you were born, the bearded crowds were running wild in Mehrabad Airport – poorly, shabbily, and aggressively treating Iranian passengers. There were so many complaints that Mr. Rafsanjani went for a visit one day and he came back and said: “They were creating counter-revolutionaries there.”

    This is the issue – the Powerful in Iran cannot bring themselves to cede power to those whom they have made powerless. They disenfranchised people – in the Second Majlis after Revolution – and planted the seeds of the political crisis of 2009 elections.

    When Mr. Khatami wanted to correct that mistake, Mr. Khamenei quashed that effort.

    All the while the bearded hiding behind Islam, accusing the beardless to be non-Muslims.

    The Prophet could bring the Ous and the Khazraj together; the bearded have created many Ous and many Khazraj.

    You can go to Istanbul and see the bearded and beardless going to mosque at 6:00 PM.

  33. Jay says:

    Karl.. says:
    July 19, 2015 at 3:17 am

    Karl,

    John Kerry on his recent interview admitted that they were at the end of the sanctions road. In January of 2015, in testimony before congress, US intelligence agency chiefs all but admitted that they were at the end of the sanctions road. Were it to be the case that US believed that more pressure would yield results, the west would not have come to the table. It is folly to think that US can ratchet up sanctions, now or in the future. The sanctions on Iran had been the worst form of repression ever and the US treasury was cracking under the pressure of trying to keep it up, it was falling apart in Russia and China, and was eroding in other non-aligned countries, and even some in Europe.

    Demonization has been in full swing. It will remain so for a while. And, the western media does not need an excuse to demonize, nothing in this agreement will change the behavior of propaganda!

    Iran will continue resistance, will continue defensive military build up, will continue technology innovation, and will continue to find alternative financial linkages.

    Western countries came to the table because the west had no other choice! They though Iran was Iraq and Iranian leadership would develop cracks like Saddam’s leadership did. They were wrong! That is why they came back to the table. There was no love! If they walk away and demonize, and kick and scream, and … They will be the ultimate losers.

    Iran traded away some nuclear infrastructure (not knowledge), and agreed to effectively what amounts to the additional protocol, for economic relief. That deal was on the table 9 years ago and the west did not take it. Ask yourself what the west came back.

  34. Jay says:

    fyi says:
    July 19, 2015 at 10:08 am

    On the contrary, I am assuming that the west will be fully engaged in undermining the deal and reneging.

    Allow me to help rephrase what you are perhaps trying to say. What is correct to say is that Iran will abide by the terms of the agreement to the extent that it does not compromise her national security. Iran will use the time to build alternate financial linkages, knowing fully well that the west will renege.

  35. James Canning says:

    Jay,

    George W. Bush was in the White House in 2006. This is the reason no deal was done with Iran at that time.

  36. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    South Korea is not keen to see North Korea “collapse”. I doubt Obama is keen to see it.

  37. fyi says:

    Mr. Nasser

    Further to the points in the articles by Ambassador Bhadrakumar:

    http://atimes.com/2015/07/mk-bhadrakumar-responds-to-david-goldman/

    I think Indians clearly neither anticipated nor prepared for the success of these negotiations.

    Their reaction was very similar to that of Saudi Arabia’s.

    They were net commercial and geopolitical losers in Iran – no doubt about that.

  38. fyi says:

    Mr. Nasser:

    I forgot to mention that the further extension of commercial and economic cooperation and exchange among Turkey, Iran, and Pakistan is an absolute necessity for these countries and their neighbours.

    The old defunct Regional Cooperation for Development Organization – replaced by ECO – should have been the locus of the grand strategy of these 3 states; rather than the geopolitical machinations of USSR and NATO states.

  39. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Pontificator,

    If you had a clue you would know that it was the Shah-era customs assholes who put on beards after the revolution who harassed people and demanded “gifts” for not harassing people.

    Not to mention business-related customs shenanigans…

    That was one the important factors in Imam’s decision to give airport security to Sepah and they cleaned it up.

    Also let’s not forget that we had a war and first priority was security, not the feelings of north Tehran self-declared kafers getting frisked. Cause apparently we had a few traitors working with the enemy at that time, right?

    Oh sorry that’s right, you fled during the war and have no actual, real, on the ground knowledge of matters.

    If you actually cared about the facts I could gladly put you in touch with some of the gentlemen who cleaned up the whole mess at that time and you could hear it from their own mouths. What’s clear after beautiful these years of bearing your pontifications is you don’t really care about the facts.

  40. fyi says:

    James Canning says:

    July 19, 2015 at 12:14 pm

    You evidently are uninformed – as has often been the case with you – about what actually transpired during the Agreed Framework’s implementation period.

    Suffice it to say that Americans instructed the South Koreans to delay on the construction of the LWR in North Korea – always counting on the collapse of state there.

    You can see a sanitized version here: http://nationalinterest.org/feature/north-korean-nuclear-diplomacy-worked-12974

    It white-washes Mr. Clinton….

  41. Karl.. says:

    Jay

    Kerry says that (about the sanctions) in a opportunistic way to the critics of this deal, he himself have of course been a fan of this sanctions politics since the start.

  42. Jay says:

    Karl.. says:
    July 19, 2015 at 12:57 pm

    Karl,

    you are contending that US could have added sanctions and more pressure and believed that it would have obtained the desired outcome.

    Okay!

    Let’s eliminate the obvious… US did not negotiate because it felt bad for Iran or Iranians. Good?

    It could have reached her desired outcome (at least believed so). Good?

    Why then did she come to the table and stayed for so many months to get a deal?!

    Just so that she can turn around and blame Iran – demonize?! She was doing fine with demonizing! It did not need the deal.

    You must answer the question for yourself so that you don’t argue around circles.

    Incidentally, you called Kerry self-serving, but you did not address the reason for the intelligence community to suggest that more sanctions is not an option. That was back in January. Was that self-serving as well?

  43. Karl.. says:

    Jay

    “you are contending that US could have added sanctions and more pressure and believed that it would have obtained the desired outcome.”

    Problem is US dont really know what they want, they used sanctions and saw where it landed, you are putting up some rational questions but US arent rational so the questions imo cant be answered.
    Intelligence data is indeed often self-serving (although I havent read the document you refer to).

    My only point that Iran will be far worse if this deal breaks.

  44. Jay says:

    Karl.. says:
    July 19, 2015 at 1:39 pm

    I respect how you feel about this. I don’t see any evidence to suggest this.

  45. Jay says:

    Incidentally, the interview with Kerry I am referring to is here:

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/kerry-iran-cant-use-unfrozen-money-fund-shiite-militias/

    The statement he makes is: critics have asked, “Why didn’t you crush [Iran] with the sanctions?”

    “I’ll tell you why. Because they won’t be crushed by sanctions – that’s been proven – and because we’ll lose the other people who are helping to provide those sanctions. … So there’s a lot of fantasy out there about this, quote, ‘better deal,’” he said.

  46. fyi says:

    pragmatic says:

    July 19, 2015 at 2:21 pm

    Yes, a deplorable absence of understanding of technological as well as scientific facts and absolute absence of any kind of strategic sense.

  47. fyi says:

    forgot to add:

    http://www.urenco.com/about-us/business-activity/nuclear-fuel-supply-chain/centrifuge-cascade

    The claim that no one is using centrifuges for uranium enrichment is patently false –

    typical lies….

  48. Karl.. says:

    Jay

    Not sure why anyone would belive Kerry’s propaganda, he said this today apparently:

    “Kerry added that in the case of Congress rejecting the deal, the United States will kill its opportunity to stop Iran from developing a nuclear weapon, which may lead to a nuclear war.”

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150719/1024812124.html#ixzz3gMotlLn6

  49. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    July 19, 2015 at 12:20 pm

    That is true. Every one expected Iran to go down (they still do) from India to Pakistan and from China to Russia: http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/07/09/iran-nuclear-india-idINKCN0PJ05O20150709

  50. Jay says:

    Karl.. says:
    July 19, 2015 at 3:25 pm

    You do not have to believe Mr. Kerry.

    Do believe what the SL and Mr. Zarif have said. Sanctions did not bring Iran to the table. Sanctions will not bring Iran to the table next time. Sanctions are cruel, but ineffective against Iran.

  51. Smith says:

    fyi says:
    July 19, 2015 at 2:40 pm

    We have so many different imbeciles from “religious” types to irreligious types and from conservatives to “liberals”, that one does not know how to categorize them.

    You are right. The gas centrifuge is now the standard form of industrial enrichment. Not only Urenco but also the proudly Iranian company in France, the Eurodif use gas centrifuge.

    Here is a point by point reply:

    1- Hilarious. Pakistan did not provide 20K units to Iran. Pakistan provided the working prototypes, schematics, along with contacts in East Asia for procurement of parts (AQ network) etc. Neither Iran nor Pakistan could manufacture the parts necessary for gas centrifuges and had to import them from various foreign firms mostly in East Asia and Europe through front companies in Dubai and Malaysia. Basically Pakistan hooked Iran up with the guys in the supply market.

    Actually what Pakistan did for Iran, is one big act of generosity that no other country would do. Without Pakistan’s help, Iran could never have developed gas centrifuge technology by herself. Just like Pakistan itself could not have developed this technology by itself if AQ Khan had not decided to leave Urenco along with his Dutch wife and “sacrifice” himself for Pakistan and in his own words for “Umma”. Iran would never do to another country what Pakistan did for Iran eg. will Iran do to Turkey? Obviously no.

    Again it is amazing how these liars take advantage of people’s ignorance.

    2- The first nuclear bomb dropped on Japan, the “little boy” was a uranium bomb. That was how the world came to know about atomic bomb (trinity test was secret). The uranium for little boy was enriched by a very inefficient method based on electromagnetic mass spectrometers. It was so inefficient and tedious that US barely was able to enrich enough uranium for a single device. This and the fact that little boy used more robust and simple trigger mechanism of gun type, were the reasons why US never tested little boy and its first test came when it was dropped on Hiroshima.

    US along with Western world later went on with a more efficient method of enrichment called gas diffusion. But the Soviets who had captured the Nazi scientists found the Nazi enrichment program was much more sophisticated than the rest of the world. It was based on gas centrifuge technology. So they imprisoned the scientists and forced them to develop Soviet enrichment program. Later one of those Nazi scientists Dr Zippe was allowed by Soviets to go to his home in Ausria and this guy introduced gas centrifuge technology to the West which became the basis for Urenco and other Western companies.

    To imply gas centrifuge can not be used for this purpose but mass spectrometery could, is akin to saying planes should not be across Atlantic from Europe to America since Columbus used sail ship.

    I mean how dumb these liars can get.

    3- Pakistan provided Iran with this technology in 1986 or 87 according to IAEA investigations. It took Iran officially till mid-2000’s to become able to install afew cascades (I know, the geniuses we have!). If Iran had bought only 20,000 P-1 units, then there was no need to negotiate with Iran. The P-1’s are notorious for their failure rate. Eventually all those 20,000 would fail and Iran would be left with no centrifuge. So why negotiate? If things were that simple, US would not have to spend huge amount of money building life size working replicas of all Iranian enrichment facilities to better understand what Iran is doing and its future capabilities.

    The thing is, Pakistan provided Iran with the recipe and the recipe does not die. It gets improved with each new cook and generation. Thus the need to halt/slow Iran’s nuclear program. Only if Pakistan had given Iran 20k units and US would not have been in all this trouble. This Nazi-Soviet technology was not something someone could come up with, during his ehtelam while snoring at 2 am.

    And if even the house arrest story is true, it would not be surprising. The Nazi inventors of this technology were themselves kidnapped, imprisoned and lived their lives in house arrest. AQ khan is under house arrest as well and it would not be any surprise if this is also the case here. It is the nature of such a technology.

    4- Rubbish. Both laser and plasma techniques are still experimental ones, and highly inefficient. They can not be used for large scale plants. Even West has not yet been able to make them work at large scale so how can a cargo cult invent a completely new technology while pisssing all over himself at 2 am.

    But just to be on the safe side, according to the deal, US has specifically mentioned laser and other methods even those yet undiscovered and uninvented, all to be banned for Iran. This is just to be on the safe side. The Murphy’s law.

    5- Yes, there is a reason for that. Because Iran was being careful not to make US angry enough to beat the hell out of Iran. Just enough angry to seek attention for a deal. 6000 Ir-1 centrifuges are just about the number required to make enough fissile material for a large fission device in about a year time starting from natural uranium.

    6- Lies. Pakistan got a few millions and certainly not billions. And this money the ever pisss poor Pakistanis needed for their missile program. But the primary reason for Pakistan sharing this with Iran and Libya was not money. It was ideological. And this was deep. This is the reason why Pakistan did not share it with a country like Iraq. Otherwise Saddam in 80’s would have paid even more if money was the only issue. Pakistan also provided these Urenco designs to China and in return got the schematics of Chinese nukes which then got shared with Libya and Iran. But Libya a country of a couple of million people did not have the human resources to advance the program. Libyans did a deal which was in the view of Libyan state an excellent deal. Give and take. To improve their economy.

    7- Lies. The IR-1 is the exact copy of P-1 which is an exact copy of an early model of a Urenco centrifuge. This is basically a European design based on Soviet designs which Dr Zippe brought with himself from Soviet Union. All based on Nazi works. Only if Nazi knew.

  52. Smith says:

    Bangladeshi scientist discovers the 85 year old theoretical particle that can be simultaneously mater and anti-matter with practical implications in electronics: http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S43/64/59M11/index.xml?section=topstories

    In West of course.

    In Bangladesh, he would never.

    The same is with Iran.

  53. Smith says:

    Jesus Christ came to Andrew Fraser’s dream one night tipping him off about intricacies of gene expression and disease manifestation: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150716135104.htm

    When he woke up next morning, he wrote his paper informing the world.

    Now as you Jesus Christ is much more knowledgeable in science, technology, economics, arts, music, etc etc than Hazrat Mohammad. He goes around and tipping his followers (only white ones), all the while Hazrat Mohammad, Imamha and Krishna, etc etc are just in deep trouble. They can’t match him in knowledge.

    With imbeciles like this in charge, no wonder we are what we are.

  54. Smith says:

    Any standard civil engineering text book has instructions for quick mortar and fast filling methods. And these were not written by Hazrat Mohammad. The Portland cement, epoxy fillers, metal fillers, fiber glass mats and asphalt are all Western inventions. They have nothing to do with Hazrat Mohammad.

    These are the gifts of Jesus Christ (only for the white ones).

    Imbecile. Moron.

  55. Smith says:

    Amir says:
    July 19, 2015 at 3:54 am

    Your apology accepted.

    I think you are assuming too much, Dr Amir. There is this thing called evidence based medicine. It means a clinician decisions should be based on body of evidence collected.

    I do not remember ever having challenged Iranian state’s legitimacy in terms you are putting, officials etc. I have always and it is my right to, challenged their competence (which is an entirely different thing).

    You have alot to learn. One of those things is to understand and internalize that a political system should be able and has to eventually evolve to accommodate opposition of all sorts except the violent type. The best system, is the one which not only can accommodate opposition but also learn from it and use it to strengthen the system. Look no further than this website run by a couple who can oppose US policies and still be gainfully employed, safe and sound in their life, property and naamoos.

    Another thing you can learn is to go beyond the surface. This is not about facial grooming choices. It is about states of mind. About ways of thinking (or in cases, unthinking). People can not be stopped from becoming “Westoxicated”. In fact under IRI more people are now Westernized (only in fashionable dalghak-bazi and not in pursuit of science and thinking) than ever before. People can not wait for utopia. They must carry on living. Thus the importance of providing for people and answering their needs. A sick person can not wait for a future mo’men scientist to have a dream about Prophet and get the formula for the drug from him. The sick person will ask the Western medicine for the solution. This is the case every where. From music and fashion to engineering and economics. It then undermines a state that (over-)defines itself as “zede-estemar”.

    When tasks are not assigned according to abilities but according to “perceived loyalties and religiousness” then it becomes the fault of state.

  56. Nasser says:

    fyi says: July 19, 2015 at 12:20 pm

    That article you posted was the best of the bunch. Thanks.

    Iran needs to industrialize. Over time it also needs ever closer union with Southern Iraq.

    Then and only then can the three large countries be free of Western dependence and realize your vision of a modern day Seljuk alliance.

  57. Nasser says:

    Dr Brzezinski:

    http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/brzezinski–i-am-impressed–encouraged-by-deal-484586051738

    Then again, he had been advocating a rapprochement with Iran for decades.

  58. Amir says:

    Smith says:
    July 19, 2015 at 7:06 pm

    Thanks!

    I could say one thing about the way the tasks are assigned; the way I have been seeing it, (1) some experts (in various fields) see so much fault with the Islamic Republic that they shun working with it; (2) people using Islam as a cover for their benefits are a reality; (3) it’s not clear whether the opposition to the state stems from its inefficiency or an animosity towards Islam.

    I know a few university professors (just where I studied) who think Islam is an old superstition (there are more who think it is from God, but it shouldn’t interfere with day-to-day life); here lies the issue that I think is the fundamental problem, what you described as “People can not be stopped from becoming “Westoxicated””.

    I can well expect a day when Islam wouldn’t be taken as seriously as today. There is the possibility that Iran would be run more efficiently, many of the values you favor and promote might have taken root, and I don’t think the wrath of God would come upon Iran; my point isn’t even that Islam and progress aren’t incompatible (maybe they are! I don’t know).

    I am just saying many Iranians (and Muslims in general) take their religion seriously, and they’d rather live poorer lives but more according to Islam (fasting during Ramadan decreases productivity, but at least on the surface makes people happier, see link: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2015-07-14/counting-ramadan).

    I fully understand that a lot of what I say couldn’t be backed with empirical evidence. That’s just the way religion is. And I abhor saying stuff like religion is also good for the worldly life. For me, it’s important if you have given due consideration to Islam (I don’t want to know whether you agree with this or that, or if are orthodox, I just think you are a person who uses his brain and it would be a shame if you have skipped this issue, because you have been too busy with your professional field).

    But overall I believe this whole subject, that you are writing about, is infinite times more important that if sanctions are waived or lifted or to what extent. Again, I apologize for readily jumping to a wrong conclusion and accusing you of something completely unjustified. But so is the impressionability of the youth.

  59. Amir says:

    And we are taught about EBM; maybe we should be taught philosophy, as well.

  60. Smith says:

    Amir says:
    July 19, 2015 at 9:08 pm

    Welcome.

    “(1) some experts (in various fields) see so much fault with the Islamic Republic that they shun working with it;”

    It is the job of the state to earn their trust. Failure to do so, will not bode well for anyone whether Iran as the state, Iran as the country or Iran as the nation.

    Above I had linked to one Bangladeshi Muslim and an Indian Hindu. If they can work and produce in West, it would be a shame if IRI could not even keep its own people let alone be a host to others.

    “(2) people using Islam as a cover for their benefits are a reality;”

    Pathetic. It is better to leave Islam and become an infidel than playing such games. This is both better for the worldly life as well as the next. But state has a big role in creating this situation. Financializing religion only damages religion and not the worldly life.

    “(3) it’s not clear whether the opposition to the state stems from its inefficiency or an animosity towards Islam.”

    It is immaterial from the perspective of state. Modern state has functions which transcend these. My own estimation says, the vast and overwhelming Iranian citizens want an efficient state, rather than an “Islam-less” system. Because Islam-less-ness does not equate with efficiency. There are many non-Islamic states which are even more inefficient than Iranian state. State should not make these excuses and instead of trying to stereotype the opposition by bundling them together as mortads, should strive to create better lives for it citizenry.

    “I know a few university professors (just where I studied) who think Islam is an old superstition”

    This is to be expected. If you do not want to live under Isis or Taliban or any such other entity, then fully expect this and respect it. In West, once upon a time blasphemy was as a big issue as in Muslim lands if not more. But now, the majority of scientists and thinkers are either atheists or agnostic. This must be tolerated and even perhaps secretly cherished if not possible outright in open. But I ascribe this also to failure of state, since state in Iran officially is functioning at the level of a godfather of religion.

    The modern sciences have indirectly come out from Christianity (the church had a big role in promoting scholarship). Then in Christian world, there was a fierce battle between science and Christianity. The Christianity basically lost the battle and a truce since then is holding. The foundation of this truce is separation of science and religion. The reason for this truce is that science due to its nature is uncompromising and the Christianity could not bring itself to accept it. Examples are many from the famous Galileo’s persecution by Church to Darwin’s evolution to Church’s opposition to birth control.

    It did not need to be this way. In my view, Islam should learn from mistakes of Christianity and wholly and completely accept science without any excuses. Such dalghak-bazi that this or that Imamzadeh came to my dream last night and I learnt how to perform laparoscopic surgery from him, only damages Islam and not science. Failure in this would mean, Islam will increasingly become meaningless to people’s lives in future and eventually will become something like what Christianity is now.

    “there are more who think it is from God, but it shouldn’t interfere with day-to-day life”

    Both state and religious scholars should capitalize on this. Otherwise, they will lose these people too. And the sin will be on state and religious scholars. Too many Christians in the West left Christianity since the Christian scholars could not accommodate them, answer their questions or their needs.

    “I can well expect a day when Islam wouldn’t be taken as seriously as today. There is the possibility that Iran would be run more efficiently, many of the values you favor and promote might have taken root, and I don’t think the wrath of God would come upon Iran; my point isn’t even that Islam and progress aren’t incompatible (maybe they are! I don’t know).”

    Islam as we know it now, is incompatible with progress. In my opinion this is majorly due to failure of early Muslim thinkers to formulate a framework that could evolve, also due to the selfish rulers who never supported scholarship. Later Ghazali and co. basically murdered all thinking in Islamic world. This has persisted till now. The only serious opening in the past 800 years came when Imam Khomeini said, there is no such thing as Islamic mathematics or atheist mathematics. This one sentence should have been made into a guiding torch. But obviously the nation itself prefers to be asleep.

    “I am just saying many Iranians (and Muslims in general) take their religion seriously, and they’d rather live poorer lives but more according to Islam (fasting during Ramadan decreases productivity, but at least on the surface makes people happier).”

    Well and good. Their reward is safe with the ultimate reward Giver. If they did this really out of servitude to Him and not to fool each other.

    “I fully understand that a lot of what I say couldn’t be backed with empirical evidence. That’s just the way religion is. And I abhor saying stuff like religion is also good for the worldly life. For me, it’s important if you have given due consideration to Islam (I don’t want to know whether you agree with this or that, or if are orthodox, I just think you are a person who uses his brain and it would be a shame if you have skipped this issue, because you have been too busy with your professional field).”

    I have and continuously am. That is how every one should be. Religious automatons are not worthy in my opinion. There is more to this world than mere we know about it. But this does not mean what we know is not real. The important thing is for the spirituality to come to terms with the reality (not other way around). And this is not my job. This is the job of an akhond.

    “But overall I believe this whole subject, that you are writing about, is infinite times more important that if sanctions are waived or lifted or to what extent. Again, I apologize for readily jumping to a wrong conclusion and accusing you of something completely unjustified. But so is the impressionability of the youth.”

    It is ok. No need to bring this up again. The important thing is to learn and think. You have an opportunity here to learn from a real thinker, Mr Fyi. I learnt alot from him. I hope you will too.

    “And we are taught about EBM; maybe we should be taught philosophy, as well.”

    Traditionally physicians were philosophers too. Actually the title of Doctor means teacher in Latin and was used in reference to philosophers. The history of medicine, mathematics, astronomy, philosophy, music and law happened in same place, time and often by the same people.

    I believe every one should read abit of philosophy and in fact this should be taught as a subject in Iranian schools.

    But you might want to be careful. As Ghazali had said, those who study mathematics and philosophy become infidels. And this is pretty much true since in today’s Islam there is no place for philosophers, mathematics, scholars and scientists. Even Imam Khomeini had to use an iron hand when dealing with these Ghazali minions. And despite his immense power in later life, I think he was still deeply afraid of them.

  61. Karl.. says:

    More threats from the US today.
    http://www.rt.com/news/310228-us-israel-iran-deal-military/

    Jay

    If sanctions didnt bring Iran to the table, what did? After all, Iran is allowed to have its program like any other nation.

  62. M.Ali says:

    Okay, riddle time. Why is the Tehran stock exchange FALLING since the deal was made official?

  63. Sakineh Bagoom says:

    The DEAL: the good, the bad, the indifferent.
    A final resolution to this manufactured crisis.

    That, Iran, a rickety third rate, third world country that can’t even build its own combustion engine( a technology that pollutes and should have been abandoned in 20th century) — as some here would like to belittle Iran at every turn, these muleteer cargo cultists — brought the FMs from most powerful countries in the world for 17 days as though nothing else was going on in the world — is astounding.

    That, bibi’s toy, the apple of his eye, his raison de etre was taken away, — a man who said: America is an easy thing to move. A man so admired by the jack in the box congress jumping up and down in ovation, when he came to shit on their sitting president. — is astounding.

    That, this rickety country could outmaneuver the most powerful lobby in the world (AIPAC) with virtually no presence in the U.S. — is astounding.

    That, this backwater country could outmaneuver neocons and their fellow travelers in congress– is astounding.

    That, unlike Greece, Iran’s sovereignty is not impinged. — is astounding.

    I guess it’s like De Gaul told Ben Gurion, that, countries don’t have friends, countries have internets.

    For now and for all the haters, IRAN SPLIT ATOM TODAY. It will be doing so tomorrow, and the day after, and to paraphrase the Ayatoller, U.S. can’t do jack.

  64. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Douche-boy,

    “And this is pretty much true since in today’s Islam there is no place for philosophers, mathematics, scholars and scientists.”

    This sentence clearly shows your mental disease- you know speaking from a purely scientific perspective.

    Obviously we don’t have any philosophers, mathematicians, scholars and scientists- not to mention nuclear scientists you increase enrichment to 20% and create fuel plates- in the Islamic Republic, right?

    It’s clear that you will shit on whatever comes out of Iran- again empirical evidence of your mental disease, not evidence of the database in your head which you mistakenly view as intelligence.

    Like I said, the tales you weave about what Iranian scientists do or did are tales not related to reality.

    I know it’s hard for you to accept that Muslim Hezbollahi Iranian scientists are advancing while maintaining their religious beliefs.

    Get over it.

    Which brings us to the subject of “reality” and “knowledge”:

    “There is more to this world than mere we know about it. But this does not mean what we know is not real. The important thing is for the spirituality to come to terms with the reality (not other way around). And this is not my job. This is the job of an akhond.”

    This sentence shows that you live by- mashallah- what you preach: It shows that you have studied philosophy A BIT!

    What exactly “science”, “knowledge” and- dare I say- “reality” exactly is, ARE TOPICS OF PHILOSOPHY YOU FUCKIN IDIOT!

    What exactly “science” is, is a question answered in philosophy you dumb-fuck.

    So yes maybe you should study A BIT MORE philosophy before you open your sophmoric mouth.

    You know it’s hilarious how you dig your own grave- metaphorically speaking. Let’s look at what you said:

    “There is more to this world than mere we know about it. But this does not mean what we know is not real.”

    You see if your really understood what you had written here, you would have kept silent after having written this, cause you know it is very true and profound. Unfortunately you don’t really understand the logical consequences of what you are saying as evidenced by the drivel you say afterward. Hey even a blind chicken finds a corn every know and then.

    What is in your heart when you wrote this sentence is that religions should come to the understanding of reality that “science”- hey whatever you say that is- has come to.

    It’s funny how you make the same sophmoric mistakes that science and techno “Nazis”- German and non-German- made oh about 60-70 years ago. Of course you would know that if you had studied a bit more philosophy.

    The difference between an Islamic/God-centric scientists view and a “Techno-utopian Daeshi” like yourself is that the religious scientist understands that all knowledge is rooted in one ultimate source. So yes it’s possible that one is deeply religious and a great scientist.

    Your problem is that you have very limited- some would say outdated and provincial- view of what “knowledge” is. When somebody is connected- for example a young civil engineer during the war- is connected to the actual source of knowledge- of course using scientific methods and experimentation where relevant- your outdated and provincial view of knowledge and yes “reality” will only get you so far.

    So yes douchi, there is more to this world than you know.

    Let us summarize:

    You claim that Iranians in Iran can’t innovate and haven’t advanced technologically and anything that happened was originally somehow not from Iran. Empirical evidence and history- “reality”- is contrary to your claim.

    You claim the reason for this is “culture” which you fail to define. The “reality” is that it is the Shia Islamic culture of self-sacrifice and martyrdom that has led to a scientific and technological explosion in Iran- unprecedented in its scope and speed in Iranian history and probably unique in human history.

    Only genuine assholes don’t “understand” this.

    You make certain claims about “reality” “knowledge” “science” without really understanding “the philosophy” behind it.

    In German there is a nice term for people like you: “Fachidiot”. Put it into Google translate genius.

    And let us not forget that an intellectual midget like yourself is on record disparaging Ibn Sina and Goedel because, well, what they said about knowledge and religion is contrary to your unique insights. Pathetic little twerp.

    Let me add another giant to your personal shit list: Werner Heisenberg

    I assume you have an entry for him in your database which mistake for intelligence.

    If you don’t know who he is, well…

    In his speech Scientific and Religious Truth (1974) while accepting the Romano Guardini Prize, Heisenberg affirmed:

    “In the history of science, ever since the famous trial of Galileo, it has repeatedly been claimed that scientific truth cannot be reconciled with the religious interpretation of the world. Although I am now convinced that scientific truth is unassailable in its own field, I have never found it possible to dismiss the content of religious thinking as simply part of an outmoded phase in the consciousness of mankind, a part we shall have to give up from now on. Thus in the course of my life I have repeatedly been compelled to ponder on the relationship of these two regions of thought, for I have never been able to doubt the reality of that to which they point.” (Heisenberg 1974, 213)[146]

    “Where no guiding ideals are left to point the way, the scale of values disappears and with it the meaning of our deeds and sufferings, and at the end can lie only negation and despair. Religion is therefore the foundation of ethics, and ethics the presupposition of life.” (Heisenberg 1974, 219).[147]

    “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” -W.Heisenberg [148][149]

    Spend a little less time ballooning your mental database and ego and a bit more time studying philosophy, religion and ethics. It will make you a better scientist.

  65. Bussed-in Basiji says:

    Supreme Leader’s Speech in Meeting with Government Officials and Ambassadors of Islamic Countries

    http://english.khamenei.ir//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2103

    “You American politicians speak and make judgments in a completely unfair manner. You do so even when it comes to clear truths. One really wonders how shameless they are! They have friendly and brotherly relations with the governments that do not even allow their people to hear the name of elections. They sign a brotherhood pact with such governments. In some of these countries, if someone speaks about elections on the street, they will be put in prison and their fate will be uncertain. This is while they say that the Islamic Republic – that has had 30-plus elections during the past 36 years – is dictatorial. Are such people trustworthy? This is why we say that these people cannot be trusted.

    They cannot be trusted. These are not people from whose mouths honest words come out. There is no honesty in them. Even on the issue of the difficult test that Mr. President referred to – both he and other officials really made great efforts on this path – they constantly and repeatedly behaved in a dishonest manner throughout all this period. Of course, our officials fortunately confronted them. In some cases, they behaved towards them in a really revolutionary way and they have achieved some results. We will see what will happen in the future.”

    “Power should grow from the inside. Collective and social piety is like individual piety. In the case of the latter – the purpose of fasting is to achieve piety and the month of fasting is the month of achieving piety – when you achieve piety, you become immune just like the person who has received vaccine and who has thus immunized themselves. Even if they go to a microbe-contaminated environment, it will not affect them. Piety is like this. It does not allow the surrounding environment to influence you. At least, it does not allow you to be influenced easily. Individual piety is like this.

    The same is true of national piety. If a people strengthen themselves from the inside, if they strengthen their science, their industry, their faith and their culture, then outside forces will not be able to influence them. This is a prescription that all of us should act on today. The world of Islam should act on it as well.”

  66. Jay says:

    Karl.. says:
    July 20, 2015 at 4:22 am

    The assertion that Iran came to the table because of sanctions is a neocon fantasy.

    Iran came to the table to demonstrate once again that she can be a rational actor. In 2003, 2006, 2009, and 2010, Iran, acting as a rational actor, offered to resolve this manufactured crisis – a win-win option. In each case, the other party walked away. They ultimately came back and accepted all aspects (and more) of Iran’s enrichment program.

    Iran came to the table for the same reason that she came to the table numerous times before. It is the rational thing to do!

  67. kooshy says:

    Jay says:
    July 20, 2015 at 10:47 am
    Karl.. says:
    July 20, 2015 at 4:22 am

    Iran came to the table because for the first time US sent a secret message through Oman that US will recognizes Iran’s right to enrichment which was not only Iran’s demand but also a NAM demand. This has been said repeatedly by Iranian officials including supreme leader. US/EU centric wouldn’t want to mention this basic fact which is contrary to the defeated unsuccessful position US took and forced her EU clientele to take against their own interests, so is no wonder why Karl will insists on Iran came to table because of being scared of sanctions. Is like trying to convince Ziocentrics FYI, Smith and co. that Iran had, has, and will have scientific technical achievements, they will deny it since the policy of Israel is to show Israel the most accomplished in ME.

  68. Karl.. says:

    Jay

    Rational, in what way?
    I dont see how it is rational to walk to the table on a question that is not a problem for Iran itself but only according to 1-2 other states? Especially since any state is allowed to have a nuclear program.
    WIth that being said I dont blame Iran going to the table.

  69. James Canning says:

    fyi,

    I am confident I was correct in stating that South Korea would not welcome a “collapse” of North Korea.

  70. Kooshy says:

    Just the fact that U.S. And her EU clientele plus her regional Arab clientele and Israel and her NATO member states including Turkey in almost five years like in Ukraine could not even pull a military coup against the majority supported Bashar of Syrian Arab Republic is very telling, and shows how weak the U.S. and her allies hand in the region is.

  71. Ataune says:

    @Karl

    Rational in a sense that in your calculation as a state you take in account the balance of political power and the degree of intelligence, or lack of it, in your opponents.

    Now depending on the perception of your own strength you will have a certain political power projection and you will act based on this parameter. These actions are certainly coming out of an intended rational ground, as in the case of the US right out of her cold war “victory” in the beginning of the 1990’s. But when circumstances change and the reality get ahead of your one parameter strategy (a strategy which equate political power with military strength), then, even though the initial intention was rational, the actions based on it become more and more incoherent – until obviously either you correct the discrepancy or …

    Facing this kind of opponent, with a tendency to resolve most of the real or imaginary obstacles in front of him in an aggressive way, the rational answer for you is to enhance your defensive capabilities against the mighty military strength. And when, maybe in a sudden burst of enlightenment, your adversary tries to talk to you -although still accompanied by means of coercion- the rational answer is to out-maneuver him in negotiations and to keep your defensive capabilities intact.

  72. kooshy says:

    Based on my own observations, I try to assemble what were the initial bases, conditions and calculations otherwise what the minimum demands were and maximum they were willing to give and what can be thought of the Iran’ cost benefit calculations for Iranians going to these negotiations.

    I am going to just list the Iran’s wants, or things that she doesn’t see as trouble (as I can think of them) and I assume anything is not on want/ no trouble list is not wanted by Iran.

    Iran wants her treaty rights to full cycle enrichment for peaceful purposes to be recognized specially by UNSC. And by the entire world community through UNSC, which US through coercion was able to deny through multiple (in Iran’s view) illegal UNSC resolutions which never the less became international laws recognized and binding by majority UN members.
    Iran is willing to accept time expired restrictions to her treaty rights if her rights are recognized, and keeps the treaty intact without permanently destroying it.
    Iran is not, and was not using or ever had intend to use her nuclear technology to produce nuclear bombs.
    Iran is confident that her adversaries confidently know that today Iran has the knowledge; knowhow and industrial base to produce atomic weapons if she has the reason for and desires to do so.
    Iran doesn’t foresee any credible direct military threat against her from any state actor.
    Iran doesn’t seek, rely or even want her sovereignty and independence to be assured by a military alliance or a strong country like China or Russia.
    Iran knows and accepts for lifting the Un/Western imposed sanctions she has to pay a cost that she needs to agree to.
    Iran understands that if her adversaries do not honor their agreement they can with all possibilities re impose their and UNSC sanctions back
    Iran never believed China and Russia on nuclear issue are any more compromising than US and her EU clientele
    Iran understand through her economic buying power US can force any independent country including BRICS to restrict overt and accounted trade with Iran
    Iran Understands that her necessity for industrial scale enrichment is more than 8-10 years out in case she can obtain meaningful and legal international permitted financial and technical cooperation by outside sources
    Iran doesn’t see or favor to indulge in a proxy war with any Sunni majority states, even if they are illegitimate in eye of their constituencies.
    Iran does favor to obtain necessary technologies/ transfer of technologies to improve her domestic productions and productivity if it can be easier to be obtained.
    Iran does not believe any meaningful military help or supplies can be in short term from abroad including Russia and China so she doesn’t for see ban on imports on military equipment and technology will make much difference.

    I can think of more wanted items, but for now what if all the wants so far to this list is compared to JCPOA and see if the deal materialized majority of Iran’ wants deal, and see what restrictions put forward by JCPOA are troublesome to Iran’s security why and in which way? if you have more to ad please go ahead and if you have comments please make.

  73. kooshy says:

    Iran does not believe any meaningful military help or supplies in short term can be obtained from abroad, including Russia and China so she doesn’t for see ban on imports on military equipment and technology will make much difference her current defensive military posture.
    Iran due to her experience in 8 year war prefers to master her own military technology and procurement

  74. masoud says:

    M.Ali says:
    July 20, 2015 at 5:43 am

    The sanctions were an incentive to invest Iranian Capital inside the country. Now, there will be a number of large institutional investors who believe they can get a better deal for their money in Asia or Europe, at low political risk.

  75. ordinary says:

    @BiBi, @Amir,

    6:32 we know it saddens you what they say, it is not you they deride these brutes dismiss the signs of God.

    6:34 if it is unbearable to you – their dismissing… had God wanted they would all be brought into guidance, so don’t be of fools.

    6:43 once they forgot our message, we opened them the doors to all kinds of prosperity, so they got immersed in joy…

    6:52 in this way we tested some by some – as they derided: “are these deprived the ones God favored among us!”…

    5:56 oh you who believe, do not take as friends those who play or dried your religion,…

    5:50 …and that who befriends them is like them…
    ———-

    They drink water but can’t think who sends it drop by drop and stores it in ice and gives them water continuously flowing.

    ———

    Take a look at Adab’as-Salat by Imam Khomeini.

  76. Karl.. says:

    US sucking up for Israel again

    “US Determined to Keep Israel Top Mideast Power – Defense Secretary”
    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150721/1024856205.html

  77. Amir says:

    ordinary says:
    July 21, 2015 at 12:52 am

    5:50 …and that who befriends them is like them…

    Indeed.